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Pedestrianisation of Ennis

  • 20-05-2020 5:39pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,713 ✭✭✭


    So what do ye all think of it? Took a walk through the town today and it was lovely not be worrying about traffic. The only noticeable change to the traffic flow is coming onto Abbey Street from Ciarán's is now a right turn instead of left.

    It's a great opportunity to test the waters with it and hopefully it becomes a permanent thing.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    So what do ye all think of it? Took a walk through the town today and it was lovely not be worrying about traffic. The only noticeable change to the traffic flow is coming onto Abbey Street from Ciarán's is now a right turn instead of left.

    It's a great opportunity to test the waters with it and hopefully it becomes a permanent thing.

    Would be a great idea for Ennis.
    Throw in Kinsale there while you're at it.

    Plenty of towns would be better car-free


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭Deagol


    If I understand correctly, it's only during certain hours? If so, all for it.

    I wouldn't like to see it become totally pedestrianised though as without traffic you get more people hanging around looking for trouble. The chance of a car passing tends to keep manners on people.

    I lived in a town in England for a while that had totally pedestrianised centre and it was lethal after hours. Muggings etc were rife because there was no chance of anyone coming upon the perps. No chance of a cop car passing etc.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Full details can be found here

    https://www.clarecoco.ie/services/roads-and-transport/news/temporary-covid-19-town-centre-mobility-plan-for-ennis.html
    Traffic re-routing measures
    Measures will apply from 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. (Monday-Saturday) and will affect the following areas:

    Abbey Street at the entrance to Abbey Street Carpark
    Frances Street at the entrance to Abbey Street
    O'Connell Street
    Bank Place to the exit from Abbey Street Carpark
    Salt House Lane and High Street
    Cabey's Lane at Market Place
    Lower Parnell Street from Carmody Street to Cabey's Lane
    Woodquay can be accessed from the carpark side
    Summerhill will be altered to a two-way traffic system,with access to River Lane from the river side and Fahy's Lane from Summerhill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭Shapey Fiend


    On a temporary basis it is what it is but whenever I look at the facebook threads people are very blindly pro pedestrianisation despite the fact the places where it's currently the case in Ennis are not particularly thriving. From the retailers perspective I get why they're not for it. If 20% of people want to park as close as possible and you lose that custom then you're out of business.

    You wouldn't see Tesco/Aldi/Lidl etc. doing without their gigantic carparks and I think it's a bit daft to expect independent retailers to rely on foot traffic only. The fact there's a lot of them left nowadays with so many supermarkets and online retailers is kind of unique in a town of our size. In most situations I'm for experimentation but you don't want to play around with business. You could very easily end up with a spate of empty units all over town.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    But all of the shops in Ennis have their own car parks, the whole town isn't being pedestrianized just 2 streets for a few hours each day and this is done at Christmas a lot of years so it has been trialed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,828 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    On a temporary basis it is what it is but whenever I look at the facebook threads people are very blindly pro pedestrianisation despite the fact the places where it's currently the case in Ennis are not particularly thriving. From the retailers perspective I get why they're not for it. If 20% of people want to park as close as possible and you lose that custom then you're out of business.

    There's 4 public carparks - Dunnes, The Temple Gate, the Market and Lower Market Street - within a 2 minute walk of O'Connell Street. There's only about 17 parking spaces on the whole street. The chances of ever finding a free one is usually pretty slim. I very much doubt that 20% of the customers of all the shops on the street park on it, let alone would not shop there if they couldn't.

    If the shops are there that people want to go to, they'll go.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    All the car parks will still be open, personally I think it's a brilliant move for the town and I've been advocating it for years, not only will it allow people move freely around town it'll make it a lot more friendly to wheelchair users.

    If a shop in Ennis closes because there isn't a line of traffic going past it during the day then I'd worry about that business anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭Shapey Fiend


    Like I said closing streets at the moment is just a forgone conclusion. I was more talking about pedestrianisation in general going forward because a lot of people are adamant it's the way forward but the retailers generally aren't.

    I'm not certain it's a bad idea either I'm just saying it's difficult to say if it'd be better. The margins in a lot of business are very slim it doesn't take much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 784 ✭✭✭marzic


    Like I said closing streets at the moment is just a forgone conclusion. I was more talking about pedestrianisation in general going forward because a lot of people are adamant it's the way forward but the retailers generally aren't.

    I'm not certain it's a bad idea either I'm just saying it's difficult to say if it'd be better. The margins in a lot of business are very slim it doesn't take much.

    The traders on O'Connell street especially have never been in favour a permanent pedestrian town centre. Mentioned already about 17 spaces on O'Connell street and far less on Abbey. Most people only drive from the queens to the cathedral for a gawk! It's not a route that's in any way necessary for cars. But the traders have this idea that if you take out the cars it looks quiet, and that keeps people away somehow.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I drove through town this evening, the first thing that jumped out at me was how clean the place was, the next thing was how quiet it was but with every pub and restaurant closed that's to be expected. I hope the trial works, if they were to get rid of the footpaths and make it all the same level it would be brilliant in my opinion, tables/seats outside bars/cafes, open shop front for clothes shops, it could be great in my opinion, like Shop Street in Galway, but I guess the traders know better and it's their rates that keep the place going.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    I'll be honest, I'm dead against it. I mean, people forget that traders need access to Dixons. They do say it'll be good for people in wheelchairs.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Need access to Dixons???

    There's loads of delivery options available, trucks can't get through town during the day anyway so deliveries during the day aren't an issue


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭Deagol


    Clareman wrote: »
    I drove through town this evening, the first thing that jumped out at me was how clean the place was, the next thing was how quiet it was but with every pub and restaurant closed that's to be expected. I hope the trial works, if they were to get rid of the footpaths and make it all the same level it would be brilliant in my opinion, tables/seats outside bars/cafes, open shop front for clothes shops, it could be great in my opinion, like Shop Street in Galway, but I guess the traders know better and it's their rates that keep the place going.

    Agreed. I have rarely ever felt the need to drive through the town centre - 60% time I have realised I wasn't concentrating and ended up going through the centre by mistake. Before the motorway it wasn't easy to skirt around the outside but now - I cannot fathom why anyone would drive through. There's no shop's I can think of that sell heavy goods that would require a car to be outside to collect.

    Deliveries will have to be early in the morning - I can see that might be an issue for some shops but people adjust to these things.

    And having traffic after 7 will mean the town doesn't 'die' in the evening.

    Oh, and I never ever have considered parking in the town streets as a rational alternative to parking in Dunnes or the Bindon(?) car park etc. Only at night when I'm going for dinner - I might chance my arm and see if there's a space along there. But if that wasn't an option it wouldn't bother me.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I'll often go through town for a look but if I ever have any business to do in town I'll very rarely ever drive through town


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Deagol wrote: »
    If I understand correctly, it's only during certain hours? If so, all for it.

    I wouldn't like to see it become totally pedestrianised though as without traffic you get more people hanging around looking for trouble. The chance of a car passing tends to keep manners on people.

    I lived in a town in England for a while that had totally pedestrianised centre and it was lethal after hours. Muggings etc were rife because there was no chance of anyone coming upon the perps. No chance of a cop car passing etc.

    What town was that? Most towns that are pedestrianised see a reduction in crime. Ennis is a cracking little town, ripe for pedestrianisation with the size of the streets and the paths. Tourism would no doubt increase. And cop cars drive in pedestrianised areas, they also use bikes and horses, the "perps" find it hard to outrun bikes and are spotted hundreds of metres away from horse riders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭Deagol


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    What town was that? Most towns that are pedestrianised see a reduction in crime. Ennis is a cracking little town, ripe for pedestrianisation with the size of the streets and the paths. Tourism would no doubt increase. And cop cars drive in pedestrianised areas, they also use bikes and horses, the "perps" find it hard to outrun bikes and are spotted hundreds of metres away from horse riders.

    Source for the claim about reduction in crime please?

    Tourism increase, no doubt? According to what study or what example? Not that you may have noticed I'm totally disagreeing with pedastrianization but I think having it between certain times is better. I'm not 100% convinced though, maybe having tables outside etc all the time would be nice. I just wonder, with the lack of serious repercussions we have, would it really work.

    And I don't know what planet your living on but I'd like to know the last time you seen a cop on a bike or horse in Ennis??! I certainly don't remember seeing either but perhaps I'm forgetful in my dotage :)

    Example of dangers of 24hr zones... Cruises street in Limerick. Lovely during the day when the shops are open but I certainly am very wary of walking in the dark late at night. In fact I definitely wouldn't chance it on my own.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Deagol wrote: »
    Source for the claim about reduction in crime please?

    There's so many to choose from. Here's one and a quote from one of the many;

    "Pedestrianisation of a busy city centre street in Mexico City resulted in a 30% increase in commercial activity and 96% reduction in violent crime"

    https://www.rapidtransition.org/stories/reclaiming-the-streets-the-increasing-trend-of-pedestrianisation-around-the-world/
    Deagol wrote: »
    Tourism increase, no doubt? According to what study or what example?

    Again, so many to choose from, research it yourself, it's fascinating. From personal experience in Ireland Shop street in Galway, Grafton street in Dublin and Temple bar attract millions of tourists. Civic plazas and areas with no traffic attract tourists throughout Europe and the world.
    Deagol wrote: »
    Not that you may have noticed I'm totally disagreeing with pedastrianization but I think having it between certain times is better. I'm not 100% convinced though, maybe having tables outside etc all the time would be nice. I just wonder, with the lack of serious repercussions we have, would it really work.

    All pedestrianised areas are between certain times to allow deliveries. Not sure what you're on about with the lack of serious repercussions we have.
    Deagol wrote: »
    And I don't know what planet your living on but I'd like to know the last time you seen a cop on a bike or horse in Ennis??! I certainly don't remember seeing either but perhaps I'm forgetful in my dotage :)

    I'm living on a planet where mounted and bike riding Gardai patrol pedestrianised areas. You haven't seen them in Ennis because it's not pedestrianised.
    Deagol wrote: »
    Example of dangers of 24hr zones... Cruises street in Limerick. Lovely during the day when the shops are open but I certainly am very wary of walking in the dark late at night. In fact I definitely wouldn't chance it on my own.

    That's very interesting. You must have had a dreadful experience there during the dark, late at night on your own.

    So, can you answer my question, what town in England did you live in that had a surge of crime due to pedestrianisation?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Mounted Garda most certainly do not patrol pedestrianised areas. There is one Garda Mounted Unit in the country and its based in the Phoenix Park in Dublin. Its used mainly for crowd control at large events.

    You definitely will not see them patrolling any pedestrianised streets in Ennis.

    And I've seen Gardai on bikes all over Limerick. Never riding down Cruises St though. And it is dodgy at night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Mounted Garda most certainly do not patrol pedestrianised areas.

    Yes they do. I've seen them on Grafton st., Henry st., Temple Bar, Stephen's green, Phoenix Park and St, Annes park all in Dublin. I guarantee you, if Ennis goes pedestrian there'll be photos of mounted Gardai patrolling the area.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,713 ✭✭✭pappyodaniel


    Going by some of the posts here it seems that "cars" are like some sort of deterrent for antisocial behaviour.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I was in Tesco 1 day and a guard arrived on a bike to deal with a shoplifter, I knew him and asked him about it and he explained that its a lot faster to get to Tesco from the Station by bike than it is by car.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Yes they do. I've seen them on Grafton st., Henry st., Temple Bar, Stephen's green, Phoenix Park and St, Annes park all in Dublin. I guarantee you, if Ennis goes pedestrian there'll be photos of mounted Gardai patrolling the area.

    No there won't be. There is one unit based in Dublin. They won't be sending them down to patrol the one or two streets in Ennis. Limerick has had a pedestrianised street for 30 years and there are no mounted guards in Limerick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭Deagol


    Going by some of the posts here it seems that "cars" are like some sort of deterrent for antisocial behaviour.

    Not cars per se but traffic incidental to the social situation at night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭Deagol


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    There's so many to choose from. Here's one and a quote from one of the many;

    "Pedestrianisation of a busy city centre street in Mexico City resulted in a 30% increase in commercial activity and 96% reduction in violent crime"

    https://www.rapidtransition.org/stories/reclaiming-the-streets-the-increasing-trend-of-pedestrianisation-around-the-world/

    Mexico City? Hard to take you seriously comparing Ennis, Ireland to Mexico City, Mexico.
    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Again, so many to choose from, research it yourself, it's fascinating. From personal experience in Ireland Shop street in Galway, Grafton street in Dublin and Temple bar attract millions of tourists. Civic plazas and areas with no traffic attract tourists throughout Europe and the world.

    Again, hard to take you seriously if you think tourists come to Galway to see Shop street, or they come to Dublin solely to see Grafton Street. And as for Temple Bar, if thats the type of tourism you envisage then I think most would say keep it away.
    John_Rambo wrote: »
    All pedestrianised areas are between certain times to allow deliveries. Not sure what you're on about with the lack of serious repercussions we have.


    I'm living on a planet where mounted and bike riding Gardai patrol pedestrianised areas. You haven't seen them in Ennis because it's not pedestrianised.

    Whatever about the bike Gardai - other posters have said they are actually in Ennis, you really are in cloud cuckoo land if you really seriously imagine the Gardai have the resources to have mounted police based in Ennis. I'm afraid you've lost all credibility with me with that one.
    John_Rambo wrote: »
    That's very interesting. You must have had a dreadful experience there during the dark, late at night on your own.

    So, can you answer my question, what town in England did you live in that had a surge of crime due to pedestrianisation?

    Was willing to have a discussion with you but you've descended into sarcasm and insults so I'll leave you listen to your opinion in the echo chamber you desire because you already have clearly decided your opinion is correct.

    The town I lived in has no consequence as I seriously doubt you lived there also or even visited it ever, so your opinion on it is void. I lived there so mine is valid. It didn't have any surge in crime because it was designed as a new town with a fully pedastrian town centre from the beginning. And it's widely considered to have been a failure as the whole town centre has been torn down and replaced in the past decade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Deagol wrote: »
    Mexico City? Hard to take you seriously comparing Ennis, Ireland to Mexico City, Mexico.

    Did you bother reading the studies? It's world wide, lots of examples from Europe. Read it and then comment!
    Deagol wrote: »
    Again, hard to take you seriously if you think tourists come to Galway to see Shop street, or they come to Dublin solely to see Grafton Street. And as for Temple Bar, if thats the type of tourism you envisage then I think most would say keep it away.

    They do! People travel from all over the world to visit pedestrianised areas, civic plazas etc.... They do other things too, but pedestrianised areas attract tourism.

    Here's a few studies to back up my facts. Don't forget to read them!!

    http://www.isocarp.net/Data/case_studies/1130.pdf
    https://futureplaceleadership.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Tallinn-High-Street-Case-studies-Future-Place-Leadership.pdf
    Deagol wrote: »
    Whatever about the bike Gardai - other posters have said they are actually in Ennis, you really are in cloud cuckoo land if you really seriously imagine the Gardai have the resources to have mounted police based in Ennis. I'm afraid you've lost all credibility with me with that one.

    Never say Never Deagol. Pedestrianised areas attract events, gigs, and other cultural happenings. Mounted Gardai attend such events. You're not thinking laterally.
    Deagol wrote: »
    Was willing to have a discussion with you but you've descended into sarcasm and insults so I'll leave you listen to your opinion in the echo chamber you desire because you already have clearly decided your opinion is correct.

    It's not my opinion, it's a fact!
    Deagol wrote: »
    The town I lived in has no consequence as I seriously doubt you lived there also or even visited it ever, so your opinion on it is void. I lived there so mine is valid. It didn't have any surge in crime because it was designed as a new town with a fully pedastrian town centre from the beginning. And it's widely considered to have been a failure as the whole town centre has been torn down and replaced in the past decade.

    So you're refusing to give me the name of the town that was a lethal place because of pedestrianisation!! LOL... Was it called Imadeitupshire?

    Pull the other one!!


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I was going to start a new thread and thought of this 1 so I'm bumping it :)

    So what's everyone's opinion of the changes in Ennis?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Nailing my colours to the mast, I was in town this evening during school collection time, took me nearly 3 hours to get across town and do my jobs (most of that was my own stupidity by the way), but from the time I had left home to returned I could have been to Dublin. Now Mrs. Clareman pointed out to me that the schools are back and in the first few weeks everything is chaos but before this I've enjoyed a few trips into town but this was during lockdown.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Clareman wrote: »
    Nailing my colours to the mast, I was in town this evening during school collection time, took me nearly 3 hours to get across town and do my jobs (most of that was my own stupidity by the way), but from the time I had left home to returned I could have been to Dublin. Now Mrs. Clareman pointed out to me that the schools are back and in the first few weeks everything is chaos but before this I've enjoyed a few trips into town but this was during lockdown.

    The barriers need to be removed completely and flow reinstated, it's gone beyond farce. It was partially acceptable in May when Ennis resembled a ghost town. Now, with many businesses having reopened and the schools active it makes absolutely no sense. Diverting traffic elsewhere and creating gridlock on the likes of Carmody street. Elderly folks trying to attend mass or get a prescription badly hampered, tourists looking for a parking space giving up in frustration and taking their coin elsewhere. Enough is enough, only inflicting unnecessary damage on the local economy at this rate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭New Era


    I spoke to a very well known businessman today, his shop is one of Clare's county town most famous. He along with myself agreed that the pedestrianisation of Ennis has been a disaster. Quite downbeat about this "review" that the council promised will happen in a matter of weeks. "They (the council) have the power" was his main line. When I asked this man whether Ennis businesses can join forces and make an united front to end pedestrianisation, he quite bluntly put it "no benefit".

    I am quite lucky as I live about roughly a 3 minute walk to the town centre. Ennis looks lost, in particular on rainy and horrible weather days. Yet there are still those in the business community, albeit in a minority that believe that pedestrianisation should stay. From low footfall, to many businesses closing down, Parnell Street in particular is just lifeless at this moment, the town is lagging I believe to similar sized large urban towns in the province, Killarney and Tralee just two examples.

    If businesses are to wait till mid May 2021 for pedestrianisation to cease in the town, the damage to trade and business would be horrendous not just for Ennis, but for the county's economy in general, with the ongoing issues regarding the sad decline of Shannon Airport, which is a tragedy.

    So what are the solutions to help Ennis get through this crisis? From living in Ennis since the day I was born, the big issues here are really the lack of parking in the town. To me I would like to see more of a more joined up approach by our public representatives with the business community to tackle the key issues like parking, increased costs in the running of businesses, high rents, commercial taxes and how to create more of a positive atmosphere and experience for those living outside of Ennis, that would they say to themselves after their day of shopping, "Yeah I would like to come back again".

    Reward customers who continue to shop local with more discounts off goods, more gifts and cash vouchers something like that. Introduce more opportunities for those people going to pubs, restaurants and cafes to sit and have their meal and drink outside on good weather days, would be very beneficial also. I also believe as I said in a previous paragraph that Parnell Street is in desperate shape all together, a forgotten street IMO and this needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

    I certainly hope that there is ongoing discussion between the relevant stakeholders in the town, to see how to improve a town which is struggling and in decline unfortunately and that immediate action is paramount now. What started as just an issue about whether Ennis should or shouldn't close to traffic from Mondays to Saturdays, has now turned into a more wider debate about the future direction of Clare's county town. Even allowing the fallout from covid, which has had a devastating impact on all towns, villages and cities throughout Ireland, Ennis has struggled with increased commercial vacancies even before the covid 19 crisis took hold.

    Ennis never felt the benefits of the Celtic Tiger or the improving economic situation from 2015 to 2019. So when the deep recession hit in 2008, we had significant unemployment and many businesses started to cease trading and I believe that Ennis hasn't recovered from this, even allowing of the positive impacts of Clare's county town hosting two successive and successful Fleadh Cheoil's from 2016 to 2017. Our industrial estates in the Gort, Clon and Quin Roads are in desperate need of investment and Enterprise and IDA Ireland really need to step up here and engage far more with our public representatives, in both local and national level, who also need to step it up also, then what they are doing at present.

    So for those reasons I have explained in the above, its now time for all stakeholders who care about Ennis to put rancour, posturing, agendas and defeatist attitudes to one side and tackle the many issues that face the town at this time. Time is at an essence and a united approach is now needed more than ever before and get our town back to where it should be. We know that the days of thriving towns, villages and cities will not be the same as was before, due the events of this year.

    But we can do so much better and hopefully with this debate of the future of Ennis now back on the agenda again, that heads and minds of those key decision makers and stakeholders can come together and ensure the future viability of this fine town. It can happen. But whether there is the will there to ensure it will happen is the ultimate $64,000 question.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭oppiuy


    My 2 cents here but with small kids, Ennis is a no go unless early in the morning. Theres no room to maneuver Buggys etc. Its just not worth the hassle. Now if it was car free we would not need to g the limerick for shopping or casual days out. The current footfall is more t do with people staying away because of covid.

    I do believe that with proper planning and support form Business the Pedestrianisation of Ennis would be a great success


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