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What's the worst that could happen....

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  • 31-05-2016 4:15pm
    #1
    Betsy Og
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭


    Have 2 sea kayaks (sit on top, drain themselves (bungs taken out of holes)), have buoyancy jackets. Only used in calm weather/water. Dont go out on my own.

    I'm no adrenalin junkie but I dont see much danger in this situation (though relatives have concerns).

    How concerned should I be in relation to strong currents?, do I not just go with it until I correct my direction. Even if I fall out, between buoyancy jacket and wetsuit, should I not just get carried along until I re-unite with kayak or get picked up by buddy.

    On rivers, on the lower sections I would think the same logic applies (obviously wouldnt be going over rapids in a sit on top kayak).


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    #2
    sconhome
    Registered Users Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome


    Know where you are going, when you will be back and let people know.

    I've SOT's and used in calm and rough, can get hairy in big chop but I think safer being able to fall out of it and hang on that running risk of a capsise and not being able to right yourself. SOT's are bombproof and pretty much float regardless of how full they are with water too.


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    #3
    yomchi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    Betsy Og wrote: »
    Have 2 sea kayaks (sit on top, drain themselves (bungs taken out of holes)), have buoyancy jackets. Only used in calm weather/water. Dont go out on my own.

    I'm no adrenalin junkie but I dont see much danger in this situation (though relatives have concerns).

    How concerned should I be in relation to strong currents?, do I not just go with it until I correct my direction. Even if I fall out, between buoyancy jacket and wetsuit, should I not just get carried along until I re-unite with kayak or get picked up by buddy.

    On rivers, on the lower sections I would think the same logic applies (obviously wouldnt be going over rapids in a sit on top kayak).

    Get yourself a course, you won't go wrong and you'll learn a whole pile of stuff you think you knew but you didn't.

    Stay safe :)


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    #4
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Betsy Og wrote: »
    (obviously wouldnt be going over rapids in a sit on top kayak).

    Why not?
    Just curious :)


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    #5
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    DBB wrote: »
    Why not?
    Just curious :)

    They just don't allow you the kind of boat control needed for anything but the most gentle moving water.


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    #6
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    They just don't allow you the kind of boat control needed for anything but the most gentle moving water.

    Oh? I did the Liffey Descent in/on one last year along with two pals, taking all the most difficult lines over the weirs. One swim at Palmerstown Weir was all I took :)


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    #7
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    DBB wrote: »
    Oh? I did the Liffey Descent in/on one last year along with two pals, taking all the most difficult lines over the weirs. One swim at Palmerstown Weir was all I took :)

    The liffey is a very low difficulty river.

    Perhaps if you weren't in a SOT then you would have had better control and wouldn't have swam!


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    #8
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    The liffey is a very low difficulty river.

    Perhaps if you weren't in a SOT then you would have had better control and wouldn't have swam!

    Lol! Yes. Of course I was the only person who swam that day out of the 1000ish participants :D
    Many of our fellow participants in kayaks laughed at us at the start. By then end, comments about how much fun the SoTs looked on the Liffey in flood, and that they were sorry for running us down :)
    I draw your attention to your saying that SoTs can manage nothing only the gentlest of flows. We've also done the whole Boyne from.Trim to sea, again doing all the hardest lines including Carrickdexter. And the Barrow.
    They're well capable of doing more than you originally asserted. A bit of credit where it's due, methinks ;)


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    #9
    nookie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭nookie


    This post has been deleted.


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    #10
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Why would I want to use a kayak? Canoeing Ireland don't appear to agree with your concerns. Maybe you should take your concerns up with them... I'm assuming most kayakers have some level of respect for the CI training and certification system?
    They, at least, saw fit to train us and certify us to Level 3 with all associated river rescue training, they saw fit to create a class in the Liffey Descent for SoTs at least on a trial basis, and saw fit to sign us off as safe and competent to take part.
    There really does seem to be quite the level of snobbery about SoTs, but for now at least, I'm happy to go along with the credit Canoeing Ireland appear to give to what these boats can do ;)


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    #11
    nookie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭nookie


    This post has been deleted.


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    #12
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Trips down the Boyne were organised by CI instructors in the early days. Again, if they don't have an issue with it, that's good enough for me.
    Have descended the Liffey many times too outside of race day, with just our own rescue training to rely on. Self-rescue is a huge advantage with SoTs, many would argue their buoyancy when you capsize offers greater safety to the paddler... Stick with your boat. Flip it. Climb back on.
    We did extensive rescue work with them... Rescued quite a few kayakers too.
    That line about there being plenty of rescuers available on Liffey Descent day was thrown at us a lot beforehand... But ya know what? We didn't need them! Like I said, I took one swim, in my first ever race, and only because a steward had to get us to change course at the last minute. And I rescued myself... Because you can do that with SoTs. The rescuers sat watching, saying it was great that they didn't have to rescue us.
    You can indeed edge on SoTs. Pretty much everything our instructors did in their kayaks, we copied them on our SoTs. They had no issue with it, and indeed chucked their kayaks for SoTs for most of the training.

    Look, I've seen you've been dissing them for years here... I'll admit I did myself until I got used to them, and many of the old arguments against them just don't stack up. It was said in this thread they can only be used in the gentlest of waters... But that's just not true. With CI's support, we've shown that they can handle at least moderately difficult waters safely and effectively.


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    #13
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Forgive me if this is a stupid question but do you need to be able to swim to go kayaking/canoeing? I always wanted to take up the sport but I can't swim, or at least I am a very poor swimmer.


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    #14
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    DBB wrote: »
    they can handle at least moderately difficult waters safely and effectively.

    If that's how you'd categorise the liffey or the Boyne then you really, really aren't in a position to say what's safe and what isn't.

    A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. When people run into serious trouble in this sport, it's usually because they didn't know enough to know how little they knew and take on things way above their heads without even realising it.


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    #15
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    If that's how you'd categorise the liffey or the Boyne then you really, really aren't in a position to say what's safe and what isn't.

    A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. When people run into serious trouble in this sport, it's usually because they didn't know enough to know how little they knew and take on things way above their heads without even realising it.

    You made a comment about SoTs that is wrong... Demonstrably so, according to CI. So, you go on the attack and you're not alone in this thread. What a pity... We could have had a mutually respectful adult discussion about it instead.
    You said that they can only handle the gentlest of water, the Liffey and Boyne are not the gentlest of water (with 20 years on it in all conditions, I know the Boyne inside out and back to front, unlike most paddlers I meet). I merely used the expression "moderately difficult" to express that fact so that other readers wouldn't mistake either river for the canals yourself and others here seem hell-bent on describing them as. Semantics. But to assume what you've just assumed about me, based on that alone, is out of line and i'd thank you not to make such judgements about me, nor to patronise me as you have. CI were happy enough to deem me competent, experienced and safe, so I'll go with them rather than having someone like you judge me just because you don't like my calling you on a wrongful statement.
    This forum seems a lot more hostile than my general experience of meeting other paddlers in real life. Usually a friendly bunch. Pity. I'll leave it to ye now ;)


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    #16
    sconhome
    Registered Users Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome


    Surely it is less about the boat and more about the ability and capabilities of the paddlers?

    SoT's are used in adventure racing and with legs of 40-50km paddles you can be in all sorts of waters. Rivers, lakes, canals, sea in changeable conditions too. Mostly we'd portage around weirs though it can be great fun running them too.


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    #17
    adrianshanahan
    Registered Users Posts: 502 ✭✭✭adrianshanahan


    Wow this got heated fairly quickly!

    Paddle what ever craft you like and enjoy your time with your mates on the water. Get the necessary skills to make smart choices on which rivers to run in what style of boat.

    I remember the guys on the Sit on Tops at the last liffey, can't have been an easy slog but sure they were not last I do recall that much. It's great to see you out enjoying the water.

    River grading 1/2/3 , easy / moderate / difficult its all very much subjective, I got where you were coming from, NiallBoo you need to relax and not speak in such definiteness about an environment that's pretty dynamic.

    As it stands you can't meet all of the skills requirements for L3 kayak skills in a Sit on Top but you can certainly opperate SoT in a 'Class 2' environment safely and that all L3 is up to anyway. I know there are exceptions made and if you guys are who I think then you are one of the exceptions.


    No need for any hostility from anyone here.


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    #18
    Greaney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Greaney


    Delighted to see a thread that deals with SOT's. I've just started Kayaking, did a level 2, which of course I'd highly recommend. I'm hoping there'll be more discussion on SOT's as I expect they'll grow in popularity. If anyone has any advice on where to paddle (I'm in the West) I'd be mighty obliged as It's hard to find info to prep for a wee excursion on line. I'm driving the husband mad researching like bejazus. Kayak clubs don't seem to really use them yet so I don't know if it'd be a thing.

    I love my wee kayak. They're great fun and I'm not too interested in white water, but in pottering about lakes and islands is all.


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    #19
    Greaney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Greaney


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Forgive me if this is a stupid question but do you need to be able to swim to go kayaking/canoeing? I always wanted to take up the sport but I can't swim, or at least I am a very poor swimmer.


    Looks like no-one replied to you there. I've mates who've kayaked and been very poor swimmers, and I've mates who've taught and both have said that technically you don't need to be a strong swimmer at all, you just need to be able to take a dunk and not panic. The buoyancy aid (short life jacket), Helps you stay afloat without getting tired when you're getting yourself right and trying to re-enter the kayak etc.


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    #20
    WildWater
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭WildWater


    If you look at the L1 or L2 skills awards you will note that swimming ability is not assessed. However, the safety rules of canoeing include, for good reason, being able to swim. Clearly anyone would recommend that you improve your swimming skills and get comfortable covering about 25m in something that passes for swimming.

    I think many of us would, at some stage, have paddled with a very poor swimmer. As Greaney has said it's about being able to take a dunk, not panic (to which I would add) and not be in immediate need of assistance. Nobody swims elegantly in a wetsuit and bouyancy aid while holding on to a paddle! So it is about being at ease in the water and not completely helpless.


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