Milk and Dairy

betsie · 05-08-2011 1:56pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Exactly,
That's why we send them abroad to be 'shot' there instead. As long as its 'not in my back yard' it's fine, is that what you're saying?

no not at all now I'm from a suckler farm background so I'm not very experieced with dairy farms here but from what i know of the ones that are around me the calves are either raised to 18mths/2yrs ish on farm or sold to a farmer who raises them to that age instead, if there are alot of very young calves being shipped out of the country to be "disposed" of id be suprised but i could be wrong.

Absurdum · 05-08-2011 2:44pm

betsie wrote: »

good god if you had dead animals about the place like that on a farm here the dept of Ag would be down on you like a tn of bricks and rightly so, thankfully the shooting of calves is also very rare here (hope it stays that way)

if you read the article, they supply dairy to the chocolate industry

we import a lot of chocolate....

Worztron · 05-08-2011 3:35pm

Can chocolate be made with soy milk?

Serendipity99 · 13-08-2011 1:09am

betsie wrote: »

no not at all now I'm from a suckler farm background so I'm not very experieced with dairy farms here but from what i know of the ones that are around me the calves are either raised to 18mths/2yrs ish on farm or sold to a farmer who raises them to that age instead, if there are alot of very young calves being shipped out of the country to be "disposed" of id be suprised but i could be wrong.

Have a look at the statistics on Irish cattle for 2010: http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/animalhealthwelfare/animalidentificationandmovement/cattlemovementmonitoringsystem/AIMBOVINESTATISTICS2010.pdf

On page 40 you will see that in 2010 almost 340,000 cattle were exported live to other countries, and almost half of these were less than 6 weeks old. Page 41 gives data on where these cattle were sent - a high proportion went to the Netherlands, where they were probably put in veal crates and later killed.

Thus showing, yet again, that as long as it's "not in my back yard", it's ok to put living beings through hell.

Worztron · 13-08-2011 10:34am

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Have a look at the statistics on Irish cattle for 2010: http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/animalhealthwelfare/animalidentificationandmovement/cattlemovementmonitoringsystem/AIMBOVINESTATISTICS2010.pdf

Live exports should be banned outright. Cattle are being exported (and endure horrendous conditions while traveling) to muslim countries for the atrocious halal slaughter. Animals are being tortured to accommodate hocus pocus religious beliefs. :mad:

Serendipity99 · 15-08-2011 12:32am

Link from 'Scientific American' pointing out that vegetarianism does not save animals' lives: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2011/08/11/want-to-kill-fewer-animals-give-up-eggs-not-meat/

Absurdum · 15-08-2011 9:27am

go vegan

vaalea · 15-08-2011 10:00pm

vaalea wrote: »

And if it is not cows, then it is horses and greyhounds. Many more are born than race, where do they go? And they are retired from racing eventually, where do they go? It’s a culture of treatment towards animals. I imagine there are other reasons that there are no CAFOs in Ireland than simply the irish care more about their animals. Once other countries also didn’t have CAFOs.
“Approximately 20,000 greyhound puppies are registered each year in Ireland” http://www.tipp.ie/sportsandevents/greyhounds.htm where do they go?
“Ireland has a poor record on greyhound welfare. I am not referring solely to the greyhounds used in the sports industry. At the peak of the industry, approximately 25,000 greyhounds were born in Ireland every year. This is a huge number by comparison with the number of births in other countries. Typically, only 80 greyhounds were adopted into Irish homes per year and between 430 and 450 were adopted into European homes at the end of their racing lives. The worrying point is that 14,000 greyhounds disappear annually from the Irish radar. This is and should be a cause of serious concern. Not all the greyhounds to which I refer were used for racing; many were bred outside the industry, allegedly as pets, and were often used for illegal racing. http://www.igb.ie/top/Talking-Dogs/Reviews-And-Releases/Welfare-of-Greyhounds-Bill-2011-Second-Stage2/

This came up in my newsfeed today, from America but I don't even think greyhound racing is as popular in America? Maybe because it is more specific to certain states which I've never been. Anyway, sharing because it reminded me of my post above.

http://itseasybeingvegan.com/2011/08/14/the-story-of-moose/
"He lived in a research lab at Iowa State University for four-and-a-half years as a test subject in the racing chemistry lab — receiving regular injections of drugs. Just like in human sports, performance enhancing drugs are sometimes used in the greyhound racing industry. And just like in human sports, they are illegal. Research labs like the one at Iowa State pump Greyhounds with these drugs to find the threshold for testing “positive” for the illegal drugs."

Fergus_Nash · 15-08-2011 11:05pm

I always wondered why people don't post OP's like this one in the forum that it would generate the best debate. If this was posted in farming & forestry it would see the dairy farmers defend their industry while the vegans would attack it. And by the end of it the person in between would be able to make an informed opinion. This way however it's like preaching to the converted and we got a lot of unchallenged assertions in the opening couple of pages. Then somebody gave their point of view and we have now seen a reasonable level of discussion/debate.

(I know Boards isn't here just for the sole purpose of debate but why not debate such a contentious issue?)

Also there have been a few posts here advocating that we, as humans, can live without the need for cows.

PeakOutput wrote: »

Your dead right a world without cows would be far better

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

In practice, that's not going to happen. Everyone isn't going to suddenly switch to veganism over night. If we did somehow manage to pull off a trick like that, I'm sure the newfound collective willpower and compassion of the population would be able to figure something out for the existing farm animals.

In reality, all that can happen (at best) is a gradual decrease in the demand for animal products, leading to a gradual decrease in the numbers of farm animals, no culling required.

Which kinda gives fuel to the people who think that vegans and vegetarians are a bit mad. As opposed to feeding the world's population we have no reason to keep cows so we might as well let them become, or gradually become, extinct? A bit self defeating to me:P

poolking36 · 10-09-2011 3:05pm

NecroSteve wrote: »

Rasmus, you left out hemp milk. I love that stuff. Sprout some hemp seeds, throw em in the blender with twice the volume of water, and strain out the shells. Goes with everything, full of omegas and protein, etc. etc.

And I have to say, in a slight bout of militarism, that professing concern for animal welfare yet not being vegan is nothing other than hypocrisy. VEGANISM IS EASY!!

Hi where can I get hemp milk in Dublin?

PurpleFistMixer · 10-09-2011 3:26pm

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Which kinda gives fuel to the people who think that vegans and vegetarians are a bit mad. As opposed to feeding the world's population we have no reason to keep cows so we might as well let them become, or gradually become, extinct? A bit self defeating to me:P

Which is better:

Living a life for the sole purpose of being eaten/milked/otherwise used, potentially with great misery along the way.
Never having lived such a life in the first place.

In my opinion, it's not self defeating. I think it would be better that a species goes extinct rather than for all of its members to exist purely to be consumed (unnecessarily) by humans, and to suffer for this. Vegetarianism is not just about saving lives, it's about the quality of the lives. More life is not necessarily better if those are lives of misery.

(also I had forgotten about this thread so sorry for late response...)

Fergus_Nash · 14-09-2011 5:52pm

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Which is better:
Living a life for the sole purpose of being eaten/milked/otherwise used, potentially with great misery along the way.

Never having lived such a life in the first place.

In my opinion, it's not self defeating. I think it would be better that a species goes extinct rather than for all of its members to exist purely to be consumed (unnecessarily) by humans, and to suffer for this. Vegetarianism is not just about saving lives, it's about the quality of the lives. More life is not necessarily better if those are lives of misery.

(also I had forgotten about this thread so sorry for late response...)

Which is better:

A child is born into the poorest part of China to a life of making footballs and shoes, working 16 hours a day for practically no money, working for the rest of their lives.

This child's mother is forced to have an abortion and any other time she becomes pregnant she has to have an abortion.

I could give you lots of other examples of children born into impoverishment only to die at a young or survive and be milked (to use your term) by some terrible industrialist for profit.

Also it is only in a very small amount of time that farmers treat their cows so badly, just in the same way as human are exploited in the minority of cases. Cows get to live their lives out to the full and, while being from a farming background I won't attempt to say too much about this as I don't really know, but cows need to be milked as another poster explained.

At the end of their lives cows are killed in a factory so their meat can be used to feed people. There are health reasons why this should be so as meat is known to be good for people and is recommended to be eaten. The slaughter of cows also ensures that they do not have to endure a prolonged illness or disease at the end of their lives, instead being quick.

PurpleFistMixer · 14-09-2011 7:23pm

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Which is better:

A child is born into the poorest part of China to a life of making footballs and shoes, working 16 hours a day for practically no money, working for the rest of their lives.

This child's mother is forced to have an abortion and any other time she becomes pregnant she has to have an abortion.

I could give you lots of other examples of children born into impoverishment only to die at a young or survive and be milked (to use your term) by some terrible industrialist for profit.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make here. The conditions which result in children being born into poverty and misery should be abolished, just as the conditions which result in cows being mistreated should also be abolished. Unless you're arguing that child slavery is better than abortion or something, which is an entirely different discussion.

Fergus_Nash · 14-09-2011 9:12pm

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make here. The conditions which result in children being born into poverty and misery should be abolished, just as the conditions which result in cows being mistreated should also be abolished. Unless you're arguing that child slavery is better than abortion or something, which is an entirely different discussion.

No the point I was trying to make was that both examples, the child and the cow (in your opinion), are born into a life of misery or mistreatment. Would you think that the gradual extinction of the child is better for the child than being born at all? Just like you would for the cow?

PurpleFistMixer · 14-09-2011 10:49pm

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

No the point I was trying to make was that both examples, the child and the cow (in your opinion), are born into a life of misery or mistreatment. Would you think that the gradual extinction of the child is better for the child than being born at all? Just like you would for the cow?

I would like to see extinction of impoverished children, yes. It just so happens that we can do this by eradicating poverty, and not children (happily, since children are great). For cows, they largely exist for the sole purpose of feeding humans, so if we remove that demand, they will not have so much of a reason to exist. The extiction of a species is not good, no, but to me, "preserving a species" is not enough of a reason to perpetuate suffering of that species.

Graces7 · 15-09-2011 3:26pm

BnB wrote: »

Firstly, apologies for dragging up an old thread. I came across this thread a few months back because it was on the front page and I had always meant to come back to reply to it. Only got round to it now.
I fully respect anyone’s decision to be a vege or a vegan. But, please base your beliefs on facts. I was stunned by the number of utter lies being brandied about here as "facts"

I grew up on a dairy farm in the West of Ireland. I'm not farming myself now but a few of my friends are. My comments below relate to the dairy industry in Ireland. (I don't know anything about the industry outside of Ireland)

A few "facts" from the first post :
-Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.
-Male calves (babies, essentially) are slaughtered because they are surplus to requirements.
Calves are usually separated from their mothers at about 3 days old. They are then either bucket fed or reared by another cow. Usually an older cow who isn't a great milker any more would rear 1 or 2 calves). Calves are most certainly NOT "Slaughtered" because they are surplus to requirement. Friesen (the breed of cow most commonly used for milking) heifer calves are obviously very valuable are would be reared by the farmer to eventually become cows. There is pretty much no veal market in Ireland so all other calves are reared to cattle for the beef industry. Now, I can understand that you might have a problem with the beef industry and that's fair enough. But these calves will come from dairy herds, or they will come from sucking herds.

-Cows udders are massive (this is totally unnatural).
-Cows suffer from lameness and mastitis as a result .
Cows do not suffer from Mastitis or lameness as a result of anything but nature. Mastitis can occur when a cow is not milked regularly or milked fully. It might shock you to know, women who are breast feeding can and sometimes do also suffer from mastitis. Suckling cows, (Cows who are used only to rear a calf) are more likely to suffer from mastitis that a dairy cow as they are not "milked" by the calf as regularly as a dairy cow is milked.

Mastitis is a curse on dairy farmers and they are always on the lookout for it. When it occurs is treated straight away, and the milk from a treated cow is withheld from supply until all traces of the mastitis and the treatment are gone from the cows system. Every single milk collection from the farmer is tested by the co-ops and any trace of either will result in a reduced price to the farmer and/or fines.

-Cows are kept pregnant constantly (through artificial insemination) in order to produce milk all year round.

This is just mental - utterly mental.

Firstly, the use of "Artificial Insemination" as a scaremongering term. To explain what artificial insemination is. It is the very same concept as a sperm bank that Humans use. Prime bulls have their semen stored in dry ice. A farmer can pick the best bull from a catalog and when his cow is ovulating ("bulling" is the agricultural term) he calls up the AI company to come out.

Secondly, the cow does not get pregnant any more than she would naturally. A dairy cow will have a calf usually around March - April. She will ovulate again around July at which point, if the farmer is using AI, the AI man will be called. Or if, (as in most cases) the farmer has his own bull, the bull will be in the field with the cows. He will sniff that the cow is bullin, and he'll do his thing.
The cow will continue to be milked usually up until around November, maybe early December. At that point the cow will stop producing milk naturally and will be "dried off for the year. That is it until they calve again the following spring.

In no way or at no time is the situation forced. If you took 100 cows and a few bulls and left them loose on a few hundred acres, the very same cycle would continue ad nauseum. Calf born in spring, Cow comes bulling a few months later , bull does his thing, new calf born next spring.
The only way the cycle is ever tampered with in any way, is that some bigger farmers will have a second round of cows calving in later summer who will continue to give milk until January or February. They have the same 12 month cycle, but it just happens later in the year.
By doing this, the farmer will make sure that he has some cows milking all year round. While his Spring calvers are dry in Winter, his summer calvers will still be milking. And by the time his Summer calvers are dry, his spring calvers will be coming back in.

-Cows all end up in the slaughterhouse when they are not deemed 'useful' any longer.

I cannot argue with that. It is true. But what I would say that the life of a dairy cow is probably the best life of any farm animal. At the minute a fairly average dairy cow would cost you a minimum of €1,500. A very good cow could cost you up to €3,000 and more. Do you honestly think farmers are mistreating these animals. Purely from an economic point of view, they have to be looked after. Also, the quality of what they eat and their lives in general will directly affect the quality of their milk (which is tested and which will decide how a farmer is paid). So dairy cows get the best of grass, the best of meal, and the best of vetinary care.

There was a lot of scaremongering crap in the posts here and in those films.
Rainforests....!!!!! If you can show me how the dairy industry in Ireland caused a single freggin tree in the rainforest to be cut down, then I'll eat by freggin hat.

There are NO antibiotics and/or growth hormones in Irish milk. You just would not get away with it. As I said above, if for any reason a cow has to go on anti-biotics, their milk is not added to the tank for a period of time, and if it was, it would be picked up on by the co-op. Hormones are a huge No-no. You are talking about jail time if you are f**king around with those.

I can honestly see why someone would become a vegetarian. I was on a big commercial pig farm for the first time lately, and I can honestly tell you, it is not a nice place and it certainly makes me think twice about eating pork products since. But dairy farming in Ireland isn't even close to that.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong to give up dairy. I am just saying that if you are doing so, you should do it based on facts and not a mixture of exaggerations, scaremongering and blatant lies.

Thank you for this balanced view.

It is something I think about a great deal. Our landlord is a beef/dairy farmer and his cattle are well cared for and graze in peace all their lives.

One aspect not mentioned here is cost of food. Free range eggs cost up to three times as much as battery eggs, and what is eg a mother with five kids to feed going to choose? I am a pensioner and the cost of vegetatian food would be way beyond me. Tofu etc also and it is highly porocessed too.

I rarely eat meat, because of the price. When our landlord gave some beef,I stood and apologised to the bullocks who always come to greet me, but family in Canada reminded me that here thay have good lives.

Which is not the case there, sadly.

Chicken I eat occasionallly and no it is not organic. Again, cost.. and I buy wholesale packs of chicken legs and necks for our dogs and cats.
We have to eat-period, and that means as cheaply as we can. .They are not free range.

Eggs I now buy at the markets I trade at. Free range hens are fine by the way as are barn and deep litter.

All this was in my mind today as the new garden here is feeding me so well.. for lunch I had runner beans, cabbage and a baked potato. Supper will be cheese; the cheapest from LIDL.

I need milk and cheese of course. And I enjoy it.

But I don't miss meat much.

All living creaturs die. In the wild it is often a lingering and slow death , after a hard life foraging.

And the flesh then is wasted.

Always we need to be vigilant re conditions animals are kept in.

But our landlord is a good farmer.

Graces7 · 15-09-2011 3:37pm

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Which is better:
Living a life for the sole purpose of being eaten/milked/otherwise used, potentially with great misery along the way.

Never having lived such a life in the first place.

In my opinion, it's not self defeating. I think it would be better that a species goes extinct rather than for all of its members to exist purely to be consumed (unnecessarily) by humans, and to suffer for this. Vegetarianism is not just about saving lives, it's about the quality of the lives. More life is not necessarily better if those are lives of misery.

(also I had forgotten about this thread so sorry for late response...)

Be glad you did not suffer pernicious anaemia last century. The only treatment to save life was to eat raw ox liver.

And take care what meds you take as some are extracts from eg cows and pigs. And if you need a heart op? Pig valves are commonly used.

Your kind of idealism needs to be tempered with reality.

The cattle outside the window here do not live "lives of misery". They graze free in the sun and wind. Beautiful creatures with no fear. They are playful too.

Serendipity99 · 17-09-2011 2:52pm

Hi Everybody,

I think it might be best if people from the farming community did not post any more on this thread. As a vegan, I find comments such as "a cow would cost you.." and "the AI man.." very offensive.

My original intention with this thread was to encourage vegetarians to think about going vegan.

I realise that the original film clip that I posted was based on the situation in the UK. In the past few months I and some colleagues from the vegan community have begun collecting data and statistics on the situation in Ireland regarding the rearing of cattle and other farmed animals. We are sourcing our data from official bodies such as the Department of Agriculture. We would hope to make our findings available soon, and we will post again on this forum.

In the meantime, please have a look at Compassion in World Farming Ireland's website: http://www.ciwf.ie/index.html

Thank you.

Jimoslimos · 20-09-2011 4:51pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

I think it might be best if people from the farming community did not post any more on this thread. As a vegan, I find comments such as "a cow would cost you.." and "the AI man.." very offensive.

Sorry, but if you're going to make the sort of wild claims you have against farming then i think its only fair that farmers have a chance to answer.

Mr Vengeance · 20-09-2011 4:59pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Do humans have the right to do this to cows?

They'll do it regardless as they'll get away with.... some day it will all come back on mankind what it has done to animals all these years.

Keep up the good work people.

itsallaboutheL · 20-09-2011 5:08pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

A cow would eat you, and everyone you love, if it had the chance.

BnB · 20-09-2011 9:28pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Hi Everybody,
I think it might be best if people from the farming community did not post any more on this thread. As a vegan, I find comments such as "a cow would cost you.." and "the AI man.." very offensive.

I sincerely apologise if I offended you with my balanced and fair replies to the lies, wild exaggerations and mindless ramblings that you posted.

Serendipity99 · 20-09-2011 10:47pm

"Ownership" of another living being (ie. buying and selling them for money) is NOT FAIR.

PurpleFistMixer · 20-09-2011 11:28pm

Rational and productive discourse requires more than one side of an argument, though.

BnB · 20-09-2011 11:29pm

Serendipity99 wrote: »

"Ownership" of another living being (ie. buying and selling them for money) is NOT FAIR.

Honestly... I can understand how, if you have strong feelings for animals as you obviously do, that you would take offence to people mentioning the monetary of a good dairy cow.

But I really am baffled as to how the term "AI man" would cause you such offence.

5live · 21-09-2011 9:53am

Serendipity99 wrote: »

"Ownership" of another living being (ie. buying and selling them for money) is NOT FAIR.

How not fair? That is an emotive response. Any actual reasons to back it up or is it a 'gut feeling'?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 21-09-2011 11:09am

Serendipity99 wrote: »

Hi Everybody,

I think it might be best if people from the farming community did not post any more on this thread. As a vegan, I find comments such as "a cow would cost you.." and "the AI man.." very offensive.

My original intention with this thread was to encourage vegetarians to think about going vegan.

I realise that the original film clip that I posted was based on the situation in the UK. In the past few months I and some colleagues from the vegan community have begun collecting data and statistics on the situation in Ireland regarding the rearing of cattle and other farmed animals. We are sourcing our data from official bodies such as the Department of Agriculture. We would hope to make our findings available soon, and we will post again on this forum.

In the meantime, please have a look at Compassion in World Farming Ireland's website: http://www.ciwf.ie/index.html

Thank you.

Sorry now, I do realise you're getting a hard time here and I don't like to jump on, but I'm going to have to take issue with some of what you've been saying.

First of all, if you want to improve the lot of farmed animals in this country, you're going to have to talk to farmers. What proportion of the population here is vegetarian? 4%? 5%? If even. Why not focus on getting the other 95% of the population to for instance stop eating battery farmed produce or stop eating so much meat and reduce the demand for that, and the need for farm animals, that way? To be perfectly honest seems to me like you're just preaching to the choir for the sake of talking about something you're interested in, rather than actually looking at effective ways to improve the lives of animals. I understand that you feel strongly about this, but you have to be practical. You're not going to wake up in the morning (or any morning) to a world with no farms by showing vegetarians videos. Asking farmers not to participate in a discussion where you've basically implied that they're animal abusers is ridiculous.

Secondly, if you're going to say something like "I'm offended by the words the AI man" could you please not say "as a vegan" beforehand. I'm a dietary vegan and this is why I don't tell people that, because they'll think I'm crazy.

That said, I do look forward to seeing the material you've gathering and fair play for getting it together. I think you were misguided in the way you went about things here but I do respect the strength of your convictions

Injuryprone · 21-09-2011 11:20am

Serendipity99 wrote: »

"Ownership" of another living being (ie. buying and selling them for money) is NOT FAIR.

Presumably no vegan in the world keeps a pet so

Tar.Aldarion · 21-09-2011 1:22pm

Anybody can post here. No restrictions.

/Moderator

blue5000 · 12-04-2012 5:51pm

Worztron wrote: »

Live exports should be banned outright. Cattle are being exported (and endure horrendous conditions while traveling) to muslim countries for the atrocious halal slaughter. Animals are being tortured to accommodate hocus pocus religious beliefs. :mad:

I don't think it is hocus pocus. If it is done properly it is no worse than using a so called humane killer

Milk and Dairy

Comments