Colm O’Rourke’s article today

chasingpaper · 13-01-2020 12:52pm

The major reason people bother to watch most Gaelic football matches is due to club/county loyalty, built up over generations.

Sure you have people turning up to watch brutal football in January, with fringe players in terrible weather. That is due to an almost cult like religious devotion some people have to their counties and clubs. In a franchise model you lose the main appeal of the county system and these people become "consumers".

Now instead of tradition, you are selling a product. The product has to be better. In the last 10 years increased S&C, more organized tactics, and overall professionalism has changed the game to be more predictable and less entertaining.

This would get even worse under a professional system, more money means more pressure. Teams would reduce risk even further and be more organized. The game itself is not a good visual product when played in regimented way. Without the traditional attachment of the county/club "consumers" won't buy it.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 1:10pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

unilateral, in that its a sport that affects only one nation

Ok, so let’s talk about that from a couple of different angles..

1- Tayto crisps is a product that only really sells to Irish people. If you took away the Irish market from Tayto they would go out of business. So Tayto is very like the GAA in terms of who it sells to. Yet the domestic Irish market is enough to sustain Tayto and have it turn a profit. And Tayto have more direct competition in the market than the GAA do. The idea that large enterprises can’t sustain themselves off the Irish domestic market doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

2- the LOI has no TV deal and very low crowds compared to the GAA yet it survives. About 20% of clubs get money from the Europe qualification but apart from that there is no international aspect to the league. It may aswell be unilateral for the majority of clubs. Yet you are arguing that intercounty GAA with currently 3 tv deals with different stations, huge attendances compared to LOI and far better stadium infrastructure can’t compete in a climate of professionalism. You think that?

3- as already stated Ireland is the exception when it comes to elite sport. It is the only country on earth that doesn’t pay a lot of its top sportsmen. We are the exception and eventually market forces will overtake Irish exceptionalism.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 1:12pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

The major reason people bother to watch most Gaelic football matches is due to club/county loyalty, built up over generations.

Sure you have people turning up to watch brutal football in January, with fringe players in terrible weather. That is due to an almost cult like religious devotion some people have to their counties and clubs. In a franchise model you lose the main appeal of the county system and these people become "consumers".

Now instead of tradition, you are selling a product. The product has to be better. In the last 10 years increased S&C, more organized tactics, and overall professionalism has changed the game to be more predictable and less entertaining.

This would get even worse under a professional system, more money means more pressure. Teams would reduce risk even further and be more organized. The game itself is not a good visual product when played in regimented way. Without the traditional attachment of the county/club "consumers" won't buy it.

The idea that professionalism will lead to a weaker less entertaining product will be greeted with interest by the Rugby Union fraternity I’m sure.

Akabusi · 13-01-2020 1:25pm

We know the back door has only ensured that big teams that get caught on an off day get another go, the smaller teams still have no hope, yes they get maybe another one or two matches but it all ends the same when they come up against one of the big teams.
I'd create an amalgamation in each province from the panels of the teams that did not make the semi-finals (Ulster & Leinster) and Final (Munster & Connaught).

These new amalgamations would be a 35 strong panel.

Take this years Ulster Championship, it is likely that Cavan, Donegal, Fermanagh, Antrim and Derry won't make the semi-finals. Imagine a panel picked from these counties. Sure it would be dominated by Donegal but the best players in the other counties would make it such as:
McVeety, Faulkner, McKiernan (Cavan)
McGuigan, McKaigue, Cassidy (Derry)
Donnelly, Quigley, Jones (Fermanagh)
Johnston, Lynch, Rice (Antrim)

Such a panel would be capable of challenging for an All Ireland.

They go into group 1 and just to play it out after an open draw:
Ulster amalg v Leinster amalg which say Ulster win
Munster amalg v Connaught amalg which say Connaught win

Final of Ulster amalg v Connaught amalg where the winner gets a place in the super 8s

The rest of the championship works as follows:

The four provincial winners go straight into the Super 8s.

The 4 provincial beaten semi-finalists (Leinster and Ulster) go into group 2 and the same thing as above happens where the winner goes into the super 8s

The 4 provincial beaten finalists go into group 3. This group has two places in the super 8s so you only have to win your semi-final.

You could end up with a Super 8s of

Tyrone
Dublin
Kerry
Galway
One of the amalgamations (say Donegal, Cavan, Fermanagh and Antrim
Two beaten provincial finalists (say Cork and Mayo)
The best of the beaten provincial semi-finalists (say Kildare)

It should cut down on the amount of one sided games we have being seeing. It is fairer on the beaten finalists from each province. The best players from the weakest teams get to showcase their talent. Reduces the amount of games leaving more time for the clubs.

chasingpaper · 13-01-2020 1:28pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

The idea that professionalism will lead to a weaker less entertaining product will be greeted with interest by the Rugby Union fraternity I’m sure.

Very different sport for a start.

Rugby sustains 4 professional club teams on this island as opposed to 12-16 proposed in GAA. If we had 4 GAA teams, it would get very boring very fast watching railway cup games all year! There is no international dimension.

Also, most of the rugby funding comes from the international team playing against other countries. Not applicable to GAA.

And a huge aspect of rugby is collisions and contact, that is partially what sells the game, these collisions improve with professionalism. But they have massive issues now with concussions due to players being bigger and faster.

Rugby constantly change the rules to try to ensure an entertaining product. Many rugby people do lament that professionalism has taken from the game, there is less space on the pitch and far more structured due to fitter players and defensive systems.

Anyway I would prefer if GAA was not seen as a product and stayed away from professionalism.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 1:37pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

Anyway I would prefer if GAA was not seen as a product

The GAA is seen as a product by the hierarchy of the GAA when they signed TV deals, took on corporate sponsors and put high prices on tickets. It’s been going on since the 90s.

It wasn’t my doing.

As for your rugby can only support 4 teams in Ireland argument.

Well that doesn’t stand up. Rugby is bit part player in terms of player participation in Ireland. GAA in contrast is the big show. Clubs in every parish.

chasingpaper · 13-01-2020 2:15pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

The GAA is seen as a product by the hierarchy of the GAA when they signed TV deals, took on corporate sponsors and put high prices on tickets. It’s been going on since the 90s.

It wasn’t my doing.

As for your rugby can only support 4 teams in Ireland argument.

Well that doesn’t stand up. Rugby is bit part player in terms of player participation in Ireland. GAA in contrast is the big show. Clubs in every parish.

I would disagree with most of how GAA hierarchy see things.

I just think it professionalising the game is would be a further drift away from the principals of the organisation. It should be about club, parish, volunteerism, not money.

That is my opinion on what the GAA is about, I'm not too pushed about the inter-county game anymore.. Others (including Croke Park) may be different and just care about inter-county.

I did not compare GAA to rugby in the first place, but 4 teams in rugby is not an argument, that is a fact. Rugby can support 4 club teams with their revenue. About 80% of the revenue is from international matches and most of the money the provinces make is from international pro14/European cup(French and British TV rights mainly). This means they are not comparable to GAA in terms of revenue potential.

Having clubs around the country is fine, it does not necessarily mean that support will translate to inter-county franchises or amalgamations. The GAA has taken piss out of club players and volunteers for a long time and grassroots will eventually get sick of it. Especially if you take away their county team, it is their tie to the elite level.

If you think the Abbott Derry, Tyrone, Donegal Amalgamation will have same support from Donegal/Derry people as the actual the Donegal/Derry team then we have fundamentally different view on what the GAA is and why it is supported.

It is hard enough getting different parts of Donegal to buy into same team and they are from the same county!

If people want to amalgamate to help make a better fairer competition, I'm all for it, but it should be carefully done. County pride and tradition are so important in GAA and should not be taken for granted. Amalgamating just for the sake of making the game professional or semi professional does not sit well with me, even if it was financially viable.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 2:23pm

Professional sports have volunteers and have amateur clubs and grassroots. They didn’t just pack up and go home when the sport went pro.

brocbrocach · 13-01-2020 3:23pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Professional sports have volunteers and have amateur clubs and grassroots. They didn’t just pack up and go home when the sport went pro.

Have a look at the attendances for AIL rugby these days. A couple of hundred for the top teams. It's a far far cry from the 1990s. So the supporters went whole hog and disengaged from their club teams in favour of the provinces. I'd say most hardcore GAA supporters come at it from a different angle.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 3:28pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Professional sports have volunteers and have amateur clubs and grassroots. They didn’t just pack up and go home when the sport went pro.

There will be no connection between the clubs and the franchises, support will have to be commandeered rather than grown organically... pretty much the anthetitis of what the GAA is about.

look at welsh club rugby as well as an example of where there is a disconnect between grassroot fans and franchises... made worse where local club rivals were forced to join together to create a franchise club.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 3:35pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

Have a look at the attendances for AIL rugby these days. A couple of hundred for the top teams. It's a far far cry from the 1990s. So the supporters went whole hog and disengaged from their club teams in favour of the provinces. I'd say most hardcore GAA supporters come at it from a different angle.

I’m not sure the exact point you are trying to make here if you can be more specific?

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 3:39pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

There will be no connection between the clubs and the franchises, support will have to be commandeered rather than grown organically... pretty much the anthetitis of what the GAA is about.

look at welsh club rugby as well as an example of where there is a disconnect between grassroot fans and franchises... made worse where local club rivals were forced to join together to create a franchise club.

Maybe the main problem for welsh clubs is less that they’ve no identity or link to grassroots and more that apart from Llanelli winning a couple of Pro14s they’ve never won much.

partyguinness · 13-01-2020 3:41pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Colm O Ruairc, isn't the genuis he thinks he is.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bank-chases-football-legend-for-853463-development-loan-26762476.html

If he was that sort of financial genius he would be working for the bank instead of owing them money. The bank staff must all get excited the day he passes the window.

Now now. Play the ball not the man.

KaneToad · 13-01-2020 3:50pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

3- as already stated Ireland is the exception when it comes to elite sport. It is the only country on earth that doesn’t pay a lot of its top sportsmen. We are the exception and eventually market forces will overtake Irish exceptionalism.

There are very few true elite sports people in Ireland. There are plenty that devote a lot of time to their chosen sport but that doesn't make them elite. There is no market for a professional GAA model.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 3:53pm

KaneToad wrote: »

There is no market for a professional GAA model.

Yet there is a huge market for the amateur elite GAA model. A 50-60 million annual revenue market.

beggars_bush · 13-01-2020 4:03pm

the day they start being paid is the day I stop going to games

the GAA has to stop talking about everything as a 'product'

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 4:05pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

the day they start being paid is the day I stop going to games
'

Why specifically would players been paid make you stop supporting the game?

brocbrocach · 13-01-2020 4:11pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

I’m not sure the exact point you are trying to make here if you can be more specific?

That you can't expect that everything will transfer over lock stock and barrel. Volunteers might back off, supporters might not engage.
As said above, Welsh rugby is a good example. The Welsh regions have no real support base but their traditional clubs still have a very strong support and identity. If the Welsh rugby supporters wanted to folow the regions they'd fill their stadiums many times over.

partyguinness · 13-01-2020 4:17pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

3- as already stated Ireland is the exception when it comes to elite sport. It is the only country on earth that doesn’t pay a lot of its top sportsmen. We are the exception and eventually market forces will overtake Irish exceptionalism.

What market forces would they be now?

There is no other market in Ireland or worldwide for that matter competing for GAA players. Sure you will get the very very odd player who heads over to Aus or maybe cross over to rugby or soccer but Ireland and the GAA is 'exceptional'- there is no other comparison that I am aware of anyway. The AI is not played anywhere else and that is not going to change.

This is not like say soccer, where there is a worldwide market.

Can you show us another sport anywhere worldwide that has such a peculiar set of circumstances e.g. indigenous sport played on a small island of 4m people not in competition with other sports and they are not paid.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 4:18pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

As said above, Welsh rugby is a good example. The Welsh regions have no real support base but their traditional clubs still have a very strong support and identity. If the Welsh rugby supporters wanted to folow the regions they'd fill their stadiums many times over.

Ok, well two things

1- already stated, a big problem for welsh sides is they aren’t successful. Leinster didn’t immediately become a huge brand overnight. They built their brand by being successful over time. This never happened for welsh clubs.

2- the welsh clubs exist in both their original form as single clubs and then only join up for international competition. I think I’m correct with that understanding? In the GAA professional model they will only exist in one form. They won’t be one form in another competition and then switch to amalgamate teams in another competition.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 4:24pm

partyguinness wrote: »

What market forces would they be now?

There is no other market in Ireland or worldwide for that matter competing for GAA players. Sure you will get the very very odd player who heads over to Aus or maybe cross over to rugby or soccer but Ireland and the GAA is 'exceptional'- there is no other comparison that I am aware of anyway. The AI is not played anywhere else and that is not going to change.

This is not like say soccer, where there is a worldwide market.

Can you show us another sport anywhere worldwide that has such a peculiar set of circumstances e.g. indigenous sport played on a small island of 4m people not in competition with other sports and they are not paid.

Read post #33 in this thread as I’ve addressed most of what you discuss there. Come back if you want after reading that.

KaneToad · 13-01-2020 4:31pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Yet there is a huge market for the amateur elite GAA model. A 50-60 million annual revenue market.

I know. Perverse, isn't it.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 4:36pm

KaneToad wrote: »

I know. Perverse, isn't it.

Preverse? Not credible would be my description of it.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 4:41pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok, well two things

1- already stated, a big problem for welsh sides is they aren’t successful. Leinster didn’t immediately become a huge brand overnight. They built their brand by being successful over time. This never happened for welsh clubs.

2- the welsh clubs exist in both their original form as single clubs and then only join up for international competition. I think I’m correct with that understanding? In the GAA professional model they will only exist in one form. They won’t be one form in another competition and then switch to amalgamate teams in another competition.

the welsh sides were initially successful but the support base simply wasnt there to build upon that success.

on point 2, no you dont have it correct.
Welsh clubs still exist and play in their own welsh Premiership league.
While administered by the WRU, they are separate and distinct, quite like the AIL senior clubs and the IRFU.

Over these, you have the 4 welsh francises of dragons, scarlets, ospreys and blues.
they are full time professional clubs that play in teh pro14 and in european competitions.
These professional franchise clubs are poorly supported and there are moves to reduce the number.

i would envisage any franchising of GAA counties, amalgamating rivals, and allowing players to move between counties to be very hard to swallow by large sections of the support base... a la what happened in wales.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 4:50pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

on point 2, no you dont have it correct.
Welsh clubs still exist and play in their own welsh Premiership league.
While administered by the WRU, they are separate and distinct, quite like the AIL senior clubs and the IRFU.

Over these, you have the 4 welsh francises of dragons, scarlets, ospreys and blues.
they are full time professional clubs that play in teh pro14 and in european competitions.
.

Is that different to what I said?

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 4:55pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Is that different to what I said?

you said

the welsh clubs exist in both their original form as single clubs and then only join up for international competition.

the welsh clubs do not join up for international competitions (assuming you are including the pro14 here as well)

the welsh clubs are stand alone, and the welsh franchises are stand alone.

again, similar to the irish system.
AIL clubs do not join up to form the interpros.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 4:58pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you said

the welsh clubs do not join up for international competitions (assuming you are including the pro14 here as well)

the welsh clubs are stand alone, and the welsh franchises are stand alone.

again, similar to the irish system.
AIL clubs do not join up to form the interpros.

So do different players compete in the welsh premier league than the franchise teams?

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 5:02pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

So do different players compete in the welsh premier league than the franchise teams?

yes, the welsh premiership isnt full professional.

the franchises are full time professional squads.

occasionally you might have players released from the franchise to play club rugby to help rehabilitate fitness etc but the player is full time assigned to the franchise, not to the club.

brocbrocach · 13-01-2020 5:02pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok, well two things

1- already stated, a big problem for welsh sides is they aren’t successful. Leinster didn’t immediately become a huge brand overnight. They built their brand by being successful over time. This never happened for welsh clubs.

2- the welsh clubs exist in both their original form as single clubs and then only join up for international competition. I think I’m correct with that understanding? In the GAA professional model they will only exist in one form. They won’t be one form in another competition and then switch to amalgamate teams in another competition.

Sorry all said already

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 5:04pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes, the welsh premiership isnt professional.

the franchises are full time professional squads.

occasionally you might have players released from the franchise to play club rugby to help rehabilitate fitness etc but the player is full time assigned to the franchise, not to the club.

Ok. My main argument on the welsh rugby franchises is that only llanelli that has achieved success and that has been limited success. I think that’s why they never became popular more than reasons around not connecting with identity or grassroots.

Colm O’Rourke’s article today

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