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14,500 traffic convictions to be quashed over Garda error

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    #32
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    Was going to say hate to be that gard but he'll probably get a promotion.


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    #33
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    Take back their payrise to cover some of the costs. This wasn't one or two bad cops, this is a systematic and invasive culture in the force.

    How many more scandals can the current commissioner withstand before she has to go?


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    #34
    Atoms for Peace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭Atoms for Peace


    Privatise the guards now, I want killer robots on the streets.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mqDjcGgE5I


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    #35
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    Noddyholder wrote: »
    Well there's a question & a half, The insurance company's will have to clean there records to, Plus when your reapplying do you fill out yes I was caught speeding but... or I wasn't.

    Paul Reynolds RTE reckons minimum court costs of approx €15 million @€;1000 per alleged offender.
    Normal appeal cpsts however he reckons are €5000 per person equates to €75 million.
    Plaintiffs if there insurance costs increased will also be reimbursed.
    Furthermore, individuals who also make their own civil claims for false offences being applied against them, will also have to be accounted for.

    Yep, the Gardai truly are the worst arm of the public sector.
    And for that FG got them a payrise of approx €4k per man.
    Ironic that the amount they could initially pay out in appeals is almost the same cost as their payrise.

    I really do hope that Asst. commissioner gets the sack.
    If only so that we can draw a line in the sand and say 'never again.'


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    #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr McBoatface wrote: »
    Sure just like the pressure applied the the Biringham six .... they where accused of planting bombs and killing people not carrying weed so it makes it alright.

    The Garda where making undue threats and feeding information hoping the man would answer thier questions the way they wanted to. No doubt in my mind they wanted a result to suit them and truth be damned.

    Given the case collapsed the legal professionals felt the "pressure" was unlawful and the case couldn't proceed

    I wonder how many other cases which involved that Garda will come under review now

    Section 30 Offences against the state act, gardai may stop, search, interrogate and arrest anyone they suspect to be committing an offence under the O.A.S.A or any scheduled offence.
    Interrogate.
    Do you suggest that persons committing acts under these acts should not be interrogated?


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    #37
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Section 30 Offences against the state act, gardai may stop, search, interrogate and arrest anyone they suspect to be committing an offence under the O.A.S.A or any scheduled offence.
    Interrogate.
    Do you suggest that persons committing acts under these acts should not be interrogated?

    I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, I pointed out the case wasn't thrown out because everthing was above board and legal. The Garda obviously broke the boundaries of what was acceptable and legal otherwise the case would have continued.

    Interrogation and attempting to get a false statement are not the same.


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    #38
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    14,500 traffic convictions to be quashed over Garda error? Just got me thinking light bulb moment? there is 100 per cent something very Fishy Suspicious here.? big scandal like we had with Garda Maurice Mccabe Garda error? error where did I Hear this before error like the Hse Tusla error? I do not believe a word of what the Garda are saying here big scandal error? how many of 14500 traffic convictions where given to members of an Garda Siochana?


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    #39
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    Mr McBoatface wrote: »
    I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, I pointed out the case wasn't thrown out because everthing was above board and legal. The Garda obviously broke the boundaries of what was acceptable and legal otherwise the case would have continued.

    Interrogation and attempting to get a false statement are not the same.

    'Systemic and not confined to one or two operatives or localised districts', thats what the bloke in charge of Traffic said.
    The same comments at this stage could probably be applied throughout the whole force.
    A corrupt and broken organisation.


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    #40
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Why are they overturning previous convictions? Generally (A v Gov. AH Prison and C.C. v Ireland) I thought it was only the appellant and subsequent cases?


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    #41
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Hang on lads. Let's just stop and think for a second.

    Surely to God if they can know that 900000 test never took place they also know which cops recorded them . Are they going to be called in and asked why they were submitting bs info and account for their actions.

    Could this in turn call into question other convictions the copy was involved in? Ie did he or she provide bs then also.


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    #42
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,024 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Donal55 wrote: »
    Paul Reynolds RTE reckons minimum court costs of approx €15 million @€;1000 per alleged offender.
    Normal appeal cpsts however he reckons are €5000 per person equates to €75 million.
    Plaintiffs if there insurance costs increased will also be reimbursed.
    Furthermore, individuals who also make their own civil claims for false offences being applied against them, will also have to be accounted for.

    Yep, the Gardai truly are the worst arm of the public sector.
    And for that FG got them a payrise of approx €4k per man.
    Ironic that the amount they could initially pay out in appeals is almost the same cost as their payrise.

    I really do hope that Asst. commissioner gets the sack.
    If only so that we can draw a line in the sand and say 'never again.'

    This is Ireland add a few zeros onto those figures Garda Reynolds


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    #43
    myshirt
    Registered Users Posts: 5,245 ✭✭✭myshirt


    Now the real question here is, will the Garda put the hands up, take it on the chin, and provide no resistance to what needs to be done here in terms of cost - pay packet be reduced to mitigate the cost to the State.


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    #44
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    smelly sock wrote: »
    Hang on lads. Let's just stop and think for a second.

    Surely to God if they can know that 900000 test never took place they also know which cops recorded them . Are they going to be called in and asked why they were submitting bs info and account for their actions.

    Could this in turn call into question other convictions the copy was involved in? Ie did he or she provide bs then also.

    By all accounts they can't identify the bad apples.
    It could be 10 at a super checkpoint or 1 or 2 on some boreen.
    All anyone needs to know however is that there is no pattern.
    It just fcuking happened all the way from Dublin to Galway, Cork to Donegal.
    It wasn't 'POLICY' however.
    Nudge nudge wink wink.


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    #45
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Separating the issues for a second, and focusing on the number of breath tests. The Assistant Commissioner on the news today gave an explanation which made a good bit of sense. Each guard who took part in a checkpoint estimated at the end of the shift how many vehicles were stopped, and there were 400,000 checkpoints. Hence the 937,000 error was really only a difference in 2 or 3 per checkpoint - an easy error when you're asked to guess.

    What I don't get is how they arrived at the conclusion that all these guesses were wrong?

    As for the convictions - proper order. If a FCPN isn't issued and you aren't given the chance to pay it then you shouldn't be convicted. The thing that again, I don't get, is how it took 14,500 people being convicted before someone copped or challenged the fact that they hadn't been given a ticket.

    Only in ireland. We really are piss poor at any sort of planning or administration.

    One thing I would feel strongly about though is tarring every guard with the brush. This was clearly established practice. It is a management failure. The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.


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    #46
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    They're really intent on covering themselves in glory.

    Too many unanswered questions remain about the culture and integrity of the force.

    The policing authority can identify these problems just like anyone else can, but it's unable to root out the problem because it's endemic, generational and systemic.

    It shows how difficult it must be for anyone to rise their head above the parapet and become a whistle blower.


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    #47
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    sdanseo wrote: »
    Separating the issues for a second, and focusing on the number of breath tests. The Assistant Commissioner on the news today gave an explanation which made a good bit of sense. Each guard who took part in a checkpoint estimated at the end of the shift how many vehicles were stopped, and there were 400,000 checkpoints. Hence the 937,000 error was really only a difference in 2 or 3 per checkpoint - an easy error when you're asked to guess.

    What I don't get is how they arrived at the conclusion that all these guesses were wrong?

    As for the convictions - proper order. If a FCPN isn't issued and you aren't given the chance to pay it then you shouldn't be convicted. The thing that again, I don't get, is how it took 14,500 people being convicted before someone copped or challenged the fact that they hadn't been given a ticket.

    Only in ireland. We really are piss poor at any sort of planning or administration.

    One thing I would feel strongly about though is tarring every guard with the brush. This was clearly established practice. It is a management failure. The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

    But hang on. I think from the like of mccabe and now this that it shows its not just one or two guards that are corrupt. The scary thing is how many there seem to be.

    Strange how it comes out after their pay rise.


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    #48
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Donal55 wrote: »
    By all accounts they can't identify the bad apples.
    It could be 10 at a super checkpoint or 1 or 2 on some boreen.
    All anyone needs to know however is that there is no pattern.
    It just fcuking happened all the way from Dublin to Galway, Cork to Donegal.
    It wasn't 'POLICY' however.
    Nudge nudge wink wink.

    I'd have taught that if a person was bagged it would be in some system with their registration etc.


  • Options
    #49
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Donal55 wrote: »
    'Systemic and not confined to one or two operatives or localised districts', thats what the bloke in charge of Traffic said.
    The same comments at this stage could probably be applied throughout the whole force.
    A corrupt and broken organisation.

    The head of traffic should step down?


  • Options
    #50
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    smelly sock wrote: »

    Strange how it comes out after their pay rise.

    You gotta think of the work involved in creating a million extra breath tests though.


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    #51
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    smelly sock wrote: »
    The head of traffic should step down?

    In fairness, he said he would if he was asked.
    A tenner says he wont be asked.


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    #52
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Donal55 wrote: »
    In fairness, he said he would if he was asked.
    A tenner says he wont be asked.

    Yes but I mean resign. Any other country he would go.


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    #53
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    smelly sock wrote: »
    But hang on. I think from the like of mccabe and now this that it shows its not just one or two guards that are corrupt. The scary thing is how many there seem to be.

    Strange how it comes out after their pay rise.

    If there are rank and file who are corrupt it's because they are allowed to be.

    Prune everyone from Chief Super up (hell, just pay them off and allow them to retire) and replace with ex-staff from UK forces, other emergency services or promote where suitably scrupulous records exist. That's only around 50 positions.


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    #54
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    I really hope we never have any kind of terrorist incident like paris or London here with this shower in charge of things.


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    #55
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    smelly sock wrote: »
    Yes but I mean resign. Any other country he would go.

    We dont resign on principle over here. We retire on fat pensions.


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    #56
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    sdanseo wrote: »
    If there are rank and file who are corrupt it's because they are allowed to be.

    Prune everyone from Chief Super up (hell, just pay them off and allow them to retire) and replace with ex-staff from UK forces, other emergency services or promote where suitably scrupulous records exist. That's only around 50 positions.

    No reason why the head of the guards actually needs to be a guard. Could be a civilian.


  • Options
    #57
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,024 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    sdanseo wrote: »
    If there are rank and file who are corrupt it's because they are allowed to be.

    Prune everyone from Chief Super up (hell, just pay them off and allow them to retire) and replace with ex-staff from UK forces, other emergency services or promote where suitably scrupulous records exist. That's only around 50 positions.

    But they know where the bodies are buried nasty little secrets of the establishment could be leaked if a move was made on them

    Very depressing vista


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    #58
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Donal55 wrote: »
    In fairness, he said he would if he was asked.
    A tenner says he wont be asked.

    Did he?
    Commissioner asks for him to be moved from his position, he will accept that.

    Shoved over to a different desk, not given the boot and prosecuted for being criminally negligent.


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    #59
    Gunmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭Gunmonkey


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    This is Ireland add a few zeros onto those figures Garda Reynolds

    Nah, this is Ireland. The €10,000 figure will probably be what the 14,500 people have to split among themselves.

    The Tribunal setup to investigate this will be where the 0's get added to the end.


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    #60
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut




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    #61
    smelly sock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    We always hear the line trotted out that it's a minority giving everyone a bad name. Is this the same minority who stitched up mccabe? The same minority caught on camera in Waterford I think beating a few lads. The same minority who broke into a flat on James Street and beat a fella because he said something about a colleague. The same minority who tried to stitch up ian Bailey? The same minority who tried to stitch up Claire daly?


    Rotten from the top to the bottom.


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