Pre marriage course

Teach30 · 27-04-2021 6:58pm

Neyite wrote: »

That's the general perception isn't it -people spend a huge amount on weddings anyway so screw em, they have no right to question the cost of the mandatory costs.

Not everyone spends a huge amount on a wedding. We aren't, though we probably could if we wanted to. I've paid the course fee already, two months ago, so there was never an intention to get out of paying it on my part. I'm even fine with listening to RCC themed presentations for couples. But yeah, being asked intimate questions about our relationship in front of other couples is not something to look forward to either.

Like I've said, we can afford it, but I do remember being absolutely broke when we first got engaged and there's no way that I'd be giving our dire financial information to the parish secretary that went to school with my OH and who is a known gossip which is what you'd have to do in order to get the fee waived.

I’ve done it and it was fine. You know you dont have to answer any questions you don’t feel comfortable with, I don’t see why you would feel you have to, just say you’d rather not. They can’t make you!

We found it very beneficial and interesting. Over all definitely worth it, nice to take some time out together for ourselves and our relationship. I do wish there was a little more on the marriage ceremony itself, like ideas for prayers, readings, music etc but that could just be down to those giving ours.

I didn’t see the fee as a problem, the counsellors & priests volunteer and the booklet and other bits we received were good. It’s worth bearing in mind that many parishes and priests will receive lower funds the last few months with mass being cancelled. Priests rely on these funds as they dont get paid.

qwerty13 · 27-04-2021 7:08pm

Always thought it was a bit bonkers and intrusive myself, but their club, their rules.

However, a friend of mine was on one years ago, and said that she thought another couple on it were about to split after it - they not only disagreed on the topics being discussed (kids being the only one I can definitely recall, but I remember my pal saying that every big life choice discussed seemed to be an issue) - but my friend said this other pair didn’t ever seem to have discussed any of the big stuff between themselves! Shocking! So I guess the course might have done them some good

- even if it did result in a split.

I’d be very uncomfortable discussing that stuff in front of anyone else though.

Neyite · 27-04-2021 7:19pm

Teach30 wrote: »

I’ve done it and it was fine. You know you dont have to answer any questions you don’t feel comfortable with, I don’t see why you would feel you have to, just say you’d rather not. They can’t make you!

We found it very beneficial and interesting. Over all definitely worth it, nice to take some time out together for ourselves and our relationship. I do wish there was a little more on the marriage ceremony itself, like ideas for prayers, readings, music etc but that could just be down to those giving ours.

I didn’t see the fee as a problem, the counsellors & priests volunteer and the booklet and other bits we received were good. It’s worth bearing in mind that many parishes and priests will receive lower funds the last few months with mass being cancelled. Priests rely on these funds as they dont get paid.

Good to know that it's optional to answer.
I said upthread that I imagine it's of good benefit to couples like yourselves who haven't lived together before marriage so good to hear that was the case for you. I'll certainly report back at the end of June from our point of view as to how useful it is for couples in similar set-ups such as myself.

I'm not sure though that ideas on the ceremony would be helpful to include, given that the course is primarily about married life rather than planning a wedding and everyone's idea of a wedding mass is so different. Besides, the mass part is actually optional anyway and a relatively recent addition to the Wedding Rite.

Pen Rua · 27-04-2021 7:29pm

Anything remotely "intimate" or "personal" was strictly between each couple - strictly no group chats about that kind of stuff. There were very limited group discussions to begin with.

It for sure gave us a spring board to discuss other topics pre-marraige. Moreover, it introduced some interesting theories / thoughts such as "family of origin", communication etc.

As I shared before, I would have preferred it to be more Catholic - there was barely a mention of the Catechism or scripture. We did end with a very short prayer and that was the most Catholic part of it. Again, I fed this all back at the time.

I would also say our facilitators (one layman, one lay women and one priest) were excellent.

Teach30 · 27-04-2021 7:32pm

Neyite wrote: »

Good to know that it's optional to answer.
I said upthread that I imagine it's of good benefit to couples like yourselves who haven't lived together before marriage so good to hear that was the case for you. I'll certainly report back at the end of June from our point of view as to how useful it is for couples in similar set-ups such as myself.

I'm not sure though that ideas on the ceremony would be helpful to include, given that the course is primarily about married life rather than planning a wedding and everyone's idea of a wedding mass is so different. Besides, the mass part is actually optional anyway and a relatively recent addition to the Wedding Rite.

Also it clearly states on their website that “at no time during the programme will any couple or individual be placed in a situation that will cause embarrassment or distress”. So no need to worry.

The wedding mass but but could be optional, our priest during course was lovely and left a little time for asking questions about it and a good few did, for those uninterested they could log out during this.

Don’t think it matters if you live together or not. I’ve plenty of friends living together who have completed it and they all were very positive about it and found it useful in some way or another.

Accord are very helpful in general though Ive worked with them in schools and I’m sure if you were anxious ahead of it you should contact them and explain you’d rather not be asked direct questions.

Enjoy it.

Iscreamkone · 29-04-2021 11:11am

Teach30 wrote: »

Also it clearly states on their website that “at no time during the programme will any couple or individual be placed in a situation that will cause embarrassment or distress”. So no need to worry.

The wedding mass but but could be optional, our priest during course was lovely and left a little time for asking questions about it and a good few did, for those uninterested they could log out during this.

Don’t think it matters if you live together or not. I’ve plenty of friends living together who have completed it and they all were very positive about it and found it useful in some way or another.

Accord are very helpful in general though Ive worked with them in schools and I’m sure if you were anxious ahead of it you should contact them and explain you’d rather not be asked direct questions.

Enjoy it.

Accord in schools - now that's just a big :mad: from me.

Gosh_idiots · 03-05-2021 12:53am

flandabieduzie wrote: »

Tried accord but they seem all booked up until August.

Am looking at Avalon currently. Going to search for testimonials online.

Does anyone know if their certificates are accepted by priests?

I was wondering this too!

Toots · 03-05-2021 2:23am

Gosh_idiots wrote: »

I was wondering this too!

You need to check with your priest. Some will only take accord, others will accept Avalon but definitely confirm that before booking anything.

Neyite · 21-06-2021 11:03am

I said I'd report back on the course having completed it.

It was ok in the end - thanks to covid it was a highly condensed course delivered over Zoom - and that worked quite well in that we were muted nearly all the time so doing some couple exercises between ourselves there was privacy that we might not have fully managed had it been held in person like pre-covid courses.

Because it was condensed, the 21 page manual was largely skipped - I suppose couples can read the rest, and do the activities themselves if they wanted. We started at 10am and with lunch and breaks, the actual time spent on the course was roughly 3 hours. So covid did us a favour there!

The priest came in at the end to talk about the wedding ceremony itself, the paperwork required for the church, suitability of music choices and all that sort of thing. He was a nice guy and had a good sense of humour. But even his 40 min module was mostly religion free which suited me just fine.

We didn't get a huge amount out of it, but I really wasn't expecting that anyway. We are together so long that we've already faced and ironed out a lot of the flashpoints that might cause issues in a relationship. I found the stuff about the family of origin interesting, because I had already explored some of that myself before this.

21-06-2021 11:12am

Glad it went well.

I know some priests dread these too because they get told something by the couple that means they cannot get married (previously divorced, the couple consciously intend to not have children (through their own choice when they otherwise could) etc.)

21-06-2021 11:27am

Celeste Shapely Rake wrote: »

Glad it went well.

I know some priests dread these too because they get told something by the couple that means they cannot get married (previously divorced, the couple consciously intend to not have children (through their own choice when they otherwise could) etc.)

If a couple marrying in the Catholic faith choose not to have children and the priest hears this, then they can't marry?

Neyite · 21-06-2021 12:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If a couple marrying in the Catholic faith choose not to have children and the priest hears this, then they can't marry?

I've never heard of this either. I know a couple who got married in an RCC and were crystal clear to everyone that they were not ever going to have children for ethical reasons, they still got married.

I suppose technically a hardliner priest could cause you difficulties and be obstructive if you said you aren't having children but I don't think they can outright refuse to marry you based on that. Part of the RCC wedding ceremony is that you agree to raise any children in the marriage in the faith..so maybe that?

21-06-2021 12:33pm

Neyite wrote: »

I've never heard of this either. I know a couple who got married in an RCC and were crystal clear to everyone that they were not ever going to have children for ethical reasons, they still got married.

I suppose technically a hardliner priest could cause you difficulties and be obstructive if you said you aren't having children but I don't think they can outright refuse to marry you based on that. Part of the RCC wedding ceremony is that you agree to raise any children in the marriage in the faith..so maybe that?

In that case their marriage is not valid (in the eyes of the church).

Faith · 21-06-2021 12:36pm

Isn't it part of the Catholic ceremony that you pledge to have children and raise them as Catholics? I remember that being a big factor in why we couldn't bring ourselves to do a Catholic wedding even for show - felt a bit sh*tty to lie during our vows!

edit: Yep, it's one of the core components (https://www.accord.ie/resources/articles/a-sacramental-marriage)

The Marriage Ceremony

The exchange of consent between a man and a woman is an essential part of the marriage ceremony.
Catholic wedding vows are generally preceded by three questions from the priest:
“Have you come here freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?”
“Will you honour each other as man and wife for the rest of your lives?”
“Will you accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?”

The presence of the priest and of other witnesses testifies to the fact that marriage is part of the Church which recognises the lifelong and exclusive commitment of the bride and groom to each other. Catholic marriage is a vocation and it requires the married couple to accept certain obligations toward each other, the children, and the community.

Toots · 21-06-2021 12:39pm

I remember for ours it was that we would raise our children as Catholic, but it was never said that we had to have kids. I mean if someone wasn't having kids for ethical reasons (say one was a carrier for a genetic disease or something) how is the priest to know they didn't intend to try and adopt?

21-06-2021 12:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If a couple marrying in the Catholic faith choose not to have children and the priest hears this, then they can't marry?

Yes, one of the criteria for a marriage to be valid is an "openness to life", i.e. children. In practice this basically means that if a couple could have children (i.e. you could be 80 and still "open to life" and be married validly) but have zero intention to ever have children when they are getting married, their marriage is not valid.

If the priest is told this (worth remembering that the couple preform the sacrament and the priest is a witness) he will tell them they cannot have a valid catholic wedding.

Incidentally, if one of the couple can prove that at the point of marriage the other was not "open to life" it is a slam dunk annulment (which unlike a divorce, basically means that they were never married).

Mrs OBumble · 21-06-2021 12:44pm

Neyite wrote: »

but I don't think they can outright refuse to marry you based on that.

They can, and honest ones will.

Now, they will look for any way to marry you if they can find one. Eg you would raise a child if something happened and you accidentally got pregnant.

But if you totally intend not to have children, then your relationship is not a Catholic marriage, so it's pretty pointless giving you a Catholic wedding ceremony. Far better if you are honest and have a civil / humanist / CoI / whatever ceremony.

21-06-2021 12:51pm

Toots wrote: »

I remember for ours it was that we would raise our children as Catholic, but it was never said that we had to have kids. I mean if someone wasn't having kids for ethical reasons (say one was a carrier for a genetic disease or something) how is the priest to know they didn't intend to try and adopt?

You don't "have" to have children but have to be "open" to it. So for instance you can be infertile and still be "open" to life and can be validly married.

As for choosing not to for "ethical reasons" this really depends and you would probably need a canon lawyer to make a call on that. But I would imagine that if there is an express intent to never conceive on the part of both parties then the marriage would not be valid. If someone cannot conceive that is different, and the marriage would be valid.

If someone is impotent for some reasonand cannot physically have vaginal intercourse they cannot be validly married (although obviously if this disability happens afterwards that does not invalidate the marriage).

Iscreamkone · 21-06-2021 1:54pm

That’s mad, Ted!
Seriously, anyone in 2021 who is still playing these mind games with the Catholic Church needs to have a good look at themselves

21-06-2021 2:01pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

That’s mad, Ted!
Seriously, anyone in 2021 who is still playing these mind games with the Catholic Church needs to have a good look at themselves

It's not "mind games". If you don't want a catholic wedding don't have one, seems a bad idea to start a marriage off with a dose of dishonesty. To come back to what I said initially, this is why priests can dread dealing with these courses and weddings sometimes because you have non practicing catholics (who may not believe any of it) wanting a catholic wedding, and then the priest ends up the bad guy for saying no when he is informed of something that is an issue. This is why some resist talking too much about the religious aspect and give instead give the couple stuff to look up or read

This is before even getting round to telling bride/groom zilla that they can't have animals (up the aisle on horseback) in the church or drones recording it or goodness knows what else. Ask a priest about it sometimes, can be very funny.

ec18 · 21-06-2021 2:11pm

Celeste Shapely Rake wrote: »

You don't "have" to have children but have to be "open" to it. So for instance you can be infertile and still be "open" to life and can be validly married.

As for choosing not to for "ethical reasons" this really depends and you would probably need a canon lawyer to make a call on that. But I would imagine that if there is an express intent to never conceive on the part of both parties then the marriage would not be valid. If someone cannot conceive that is different, and the marriage would be valid.

If someone is impotent for some reasonand cannot physically have vaginal intercourse they cannot be validly married (although obviously if this disability happens afterwards that does not invalidate the marriage).

It's also worth remembering that under church teaching there is no contraception so the idea of choosing not to have children doesn't exist for CC. I.e in their words 'God' gifts them to you or he doesn't but you don't interfere by using contraception.

You would be legally married under those conditions but the church may not recognise it but the state would. (again might not matter to some)

(disclaimer: I'm not actually religious just pointing out the churchs position on it.)

21-06-2021 2:36pm

ec18 wrote: »

It's also worth remembering that under church teaching there is no contraception so the idea of choosing not to have children doesn't exist for CC. I.e in their words 'God' gifts them to you or he doesn't but you don't interfere by using contraception.

You would be legally married under those conditions but the church may not recognise it but the state would. (again might not matter to some)

(disclaimer: I'm not actually religious just pointing out the churchs position on it.)

Not a canon lawyer, but I'm fairly sure you could express a preference not to have a child, use natural birth control and it would be valid as you would still be "open to life" even if it is not exactly something you expressly desire. So being "open" is not the same as "really wanting". So if the attitude is "we don't really want children but sure if it happens we will have and raise the child and make the best of it" then this is ok as there is "openness".

So usually there was some wriggle room here. But in recent times there are more people who are completely "closed" to the idea. If they were of this mindset when getting married, their marriage is not valid in the eyes of the church.

(I hope I'm not boring people, I find this stuff interesting).

ec18 · 21-06-2021 2:40pm

Celeste Shapely Rake wrote: »

Not a canon lawyer, but I'm fairly sure you could express a preference not to have a child, use natural birth control and it would be valid as you would still be "open to life" even if it is not exactly something you expressly desire. So being "open" is not the same as "really wanting". So if the attitude is "we don't really want children but sure if it happens we will have and raise the child and make the best of it" then this is ok as there is "openness".

So usually there was some wriggle room here. But in recent times there are more people who are completely "closed" to the idea. If they were of this mindset when getting married, their marriage is not valid in the eyes of the church.

(I hope I'm not boring people, I find this stuff interesting).

Different priests will also have different interpretations of it, ours for example was very picky about the music and what in/out of communion was (I never quite got what he was on about) depending on the 'holiness' of the priest in question could be more or less strict on the interpretation

eviltwin · 23-06-2021 4:03pm

I'd imagine a fair chunk of the Catholic weddings that take place in Ireland are not valid then for various reasons. I think its mad but its the rules and there are other options if you don't qualify for a Catholic wedding. I can't understand why someone who choses not to live as a Catholic would want one anyway

qwerty13 · 24-06-2021 5:35am

eviltwin wrote: »

I'd imagine a fair chunk of the Catholic weddings that take place in Ireland are not valid then for various reasons. I think its mad but its the rules and there are other options if you don't qualify for a Catholic wedding. I can't understand why someone who choses not to live as a Catholic would want one anyway

Agreed. I disagree with almost all of their rules, which is why I don’t play their game. But I do have to acknowledge that it is ‘their club, their rules’. If people don’t like it, then don’t get get married in a church. (Not to mention the ‘day out’ for communions.)

NIMAN · 24-06-2021 5:45am

Are the church still running this scam?

Mrs OBumble · 27-06-2021 11:57pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Are the church still running this scam?

Weddings? Yes, the church is still offering them.

Pre marriage course

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