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22-04-2021, 22:07   #31
BalcombeSt4
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Well again based on your previous posts I don't think you're well placed. As I say no offence meant but I think you're likely too entrenched to be objective.

I have had many members of my family involved in the troubles. Those who organised the first civil rights marches and acted in negotiations for example.

I struggle to see how the troubles was anything but a civil war. What would the UVF, UDA be rebelling against exactly.

Also according to wiki and many other sources the IRA were belligerents.
I wouldn't call the Troubles a "civil war".
A Civil War implies that the sides involved are of equal strength. Like the Russian Civil War, which like the Troubles was also a 3-way conflict between The Bolsheviks (authoritarian socialists) , the Whites & the various Left-Wing Libertarian Socialist groups.

Remember the UVF, UDA, Orange Volunteers, Down Orange Welfare & Vanguard rebelled against the Suninngdale agreement in 1974 & it's height bombed Dublin & Monaghan killing 34 civilians & injured 300 others, and just 2 weeks before the Dublin bombs the UVF bombed a Nationalist pub in Belfast killing 6 civilians & injuring 30.
In total 49 Catholics were killed in the month of May 1974, making it the most deadly month of the conflict for civilians.
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22-04-2021, 22:19   #32
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[Mod Note] This thread has been an informative and interesting thread. So just reminding that all posters are bound in an interest in these events from differing perspectives and so to avoid personalisation of discussions. Thanks.
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22-04-2021, 22:30   #33
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That's your prerogative to do so.

What would you say is the difference between a guerrilla war & a guerrilla insurgency?

If WW1 never took place & Carsons UVF carried out the violent threats they made to resist basically devo-max what would that have been?

It would have been an act of rebellion i.e an insurgency.
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22-04-2021, 22:36   #34
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My mother viewed them from the onset as well, she lived in Strabane from 1967 - 1981, the first person she seen get shot & klled was a deaf mute called Eammon McDevit who was shot in the back because he couldn't hear the soldier shouting.

It's a pretty famous case


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tr..._Strabane#1971

I also remember reading Strabane was the most bombed town in Europe in the 1970's.

What county did you observe the so called "Troubles" from, Armagh, Tyrone, Down etc...?

Fermanagh, Down and Antrim but I lived in the Republic most of the time. Being an oldie, born in 1959, I followed everything that happened over the years closely especially since I had relations and friends living in the affected areas. Anyway, that's me out as I've dragged the thread off topic again.
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24-04-2021, 17:58   #35
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Fermanagh, Down and Antrim but I lived in the Republic most of the time. Being an oldie, born in 1959, I followed everything that happened over the years closely especially since I had relations and friends living in the affected areas. Anyway, that's me out as I've dragged the thread off topic again.
That's interesting.

So I doubt you'd be old enough to remember the "Border Campaign" do you recall the 64 Divis flag riots or the UVF's original 66 campaign, if their was tension around that & the 50th anniversary of 1916?

I remember visiting my cousins when I was in my early teens in Crossmaglen in the early 90's & I got no feeling that it was a dangerous place to be in or anything, although I wasn't very politically aware. And historically Crossmaglen wasn't dangerous for civilians, of course the place was virtually 100% nationalist so why would there be tension except with the British Army & RUC, who I do not remember seeing much of, this was in 1993 so maybe they were hiding from the snipers.
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25-04-2021, 13:12   #36
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Purely going off the definitions I can find on war the Troubles would seem to be quite clearly a civil war with an insurgency being more like what is currently happening in the Donbass
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25-04-2021, 21:49   #37
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Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.
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02-05-2021, 08:08   #38
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Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.
John started out disbelieving the allegations that the British government were helping terrorists but changed his mind after the push back he received from those in the security forces.
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02-05-2021, 08:47   #39
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MOD Note:
@ Ffff221.
Having two accounts post on the same thread violates the spirit of the History forum charter. Hence, please do not post on this thread again.
How come he is allowed two accounts?
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03-05-2021, 05:27   #40
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Originally Posted by patsman07 View Post
Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.
There were three sets of killings in the space of a month alleged to have been carried out by the RUC Mobile Support Unit. On the 11 November 1982 three IRA men were shot at a road block in east Lurgan, on the 24th November two civilians were shot in a farm near Lurgan and on the 12 December two INLA men were shot at a checkpoint in Mullacreavie, this one happened 6 days after the INLA bombed the Droppin Well pub in north Derry.
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17-05-2021, 20:14   #41
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The Pat Finucane collusion murder scandal.

Investigation into Stevens inquiry.

thhh

Into the 1982 murders by RUC SPG of unarmed men



Douglas Hoggs commens about solicitors being to close to the IRA



Day after Finucane death



4 months later same UDA unit kill civilians again, this time 2 UDR arresed





UDA & UDR men in court

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11-06-2021, 20:09   #42
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Mi5 also had about 50 spies in the Ira
There's about 20 now still in it

Former police officer infiltrated New IRA’s high command over last eight years, it has emerged
Dennis McFadden infiltrated the New IRA’s high command over the last eight years, providing safe houses in Northern Ireland and Scotland that were in fact bugged by the Security Service while handing out free tickets for Celtic matches and drinks from the bar in his home.He played a central role in MI5’s Operation Arbacia, which culminated at the end of this summer with the arrest of nine suspected leading New IRA members, all of whom have been charged with directing acts of terrorism.The nine suspected New IRA figures charged with directing terrorism are Kevin Barry Murphy,50, Davy Jordan, 49, Damien McLaughlin, 44, Gary Hayden, 48, Joe Barr, 44, Shea Reynolds , 26, Paddy McDaid, 50, Sharon Jordan, 45, and Mandy Duffy, 49.10th suspect, Issam Bassalat, 62, a Palestinian doctor based in Scotland, has also been arrested and stands accused of preparation of terrorist acts. He was arrested at Heathrow airport in August. Bassalat claims he only made contact with republicans in Northern Ireland because he thought he was going over to speak at a Palestinian solidarity meeting in County Tyrone.McFadden had been an MI5 agent for more than two decades, initially infiltrating Sinn Féin and then, on orders from his handlers, making contact with violent republican dissidents shortly after the New IRA was founded in 2012As well as the arrests and the eventual presence of McFadden in the witness box to give evidence, his main achievement has been to sow paranoia and distrust within what is left of the New IRA,” the senior security source said. “The dissidents in Derry no longer trust the ones in Belfast and Tyrone who brought McFadden into their organisation. There are accusations of other informers in their ranks now. In terms of terrorist operations thwarted, captured weapons and good hard intelligence on this organisation, McFadden has dealt their morale a massive blow.”
Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.
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11-06-2021, 20:11   #43
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Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.
The quote you are referencing refers to the new IRA, so that point is moot.
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11-06-2021, 20:16   #44
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Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.
That's not entirely true. The provisional republican movement commenced a ceasefire it was broken several times. The Oglaigh na hEireann title rests with anyone who is willing to resist British occupation. I understand some johnny come latelys who are no more Republican then plots, but you need to remember in the army convention in 1997, 75% of the Quartermasters brigade staff walked some trusted and experienced men walked with mickey. Mi5 knew that by infiltrating RIRA at its birth would suffocate it before it had wings to fly. Omagh was its blanket it used, British hands were all over it.
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11-06-2021, 20:24   #45
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That's not entirely true. The provisional republican movement commenced a ceasefire it was broken several times. The Oglaigh na hEireann title rests with anyone who is willing to resist British occupation. I understand some johnny come latelys who are no more Republican then plots, but you need to remember in the army convention in 1997, 75% of the Quartermasters brigade staff walked some trusted and experienced men walked with mickey. Mi5 knew that by infiltrating RIRA at its birth would suffocate it before it had wings to fly. Omagh was its blanket it used, British hands were all over it.
But not one of the so called "IRA" groups are actually resisting British occupation they have not killed a single soldier or even a police man they spend most of their time doing punishment shootings and have managed to kill a few drug dealers and civilians not one of them has or had the guts to take on the army or even a policeman except planting a bomb under some PSNI mans car and failing miserably.

None of these groups have the right to call themselves IRA.
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