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08-01-2017, 15:17   #61
devnull
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How many times have you re-registered now? You know if you want to keep saying the same stuff, at least change your posting style a little bit maybe? Might make it a bit harder for eagle eyed people to spot you

No party is going to turn around and say they will be responsible for every accident because it basically gives a free ride to drivers which basically says that safety is not their problem and that kind of culture is never going to be allowed to happen. The fact that you have come on this forum and asked for that basically appears to suggest you are saying that safety should never be important and it simply gets in the way. You know that, that is why you put up a smokescreen like this knowing that you're calling for something that isn't possible to implement.

If a driver knows no matter how negligent he is at the end of the day someone else will get the blame and he will not be held responsible where is the incentive to even operate a bus to be the safest it can possibly be. Also if this is really your sole argument, why are trains allowed to run driver only? Stepping off a train where there can be 16 sets of doors and a gap which is far more threatening and dangerous than getting off the bus is far harder for a driver to see than a bus with two doors with a much more shallow drop. Yet they still do it. Only difference is there is a mind a gap announcement. If that's all there is required lets add it Monday and you will be all happy to start using centre doors?

As for flat fare, stop over-simplifying it and saying that the NTA are simply blocking it and there is all there is to it. At the end of the day there are other issues involved in this, funding, subsidy, farebox revenue and the effect on it, effect on travel patterns, I know you like to click your fingers and say it can be fixed if the NTA say it can go ahead tommorow, but I doubt the management of Dublin Bus would agree with that, they would have many reservations about it.

That is the irony of all your arguments.

Everything someone else doesn't do is very simple and they just need to do it and that is all there is to it
Everything you don't do is very complicated and there is a lot more to it than meets the eye.
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08-01-2017, 15:22   #62
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Nothing massively wrong with the 66 route, they could do with greater frequency in the evenings outbound and slightly more on Sundays/bank holidays.

The 66x is poor though. Starts too late in the mornings to be of use to those starting before 9 (67x starts earlier) and ends too early in the evening. The amount of people standing on them means you risk it sailing past the quays entirely because theyre overloaded. Likewise the first morning X can bypass Leixlip stops before it even gets to the village.
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08-01-2017, 15:26   #63
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You moan about how the center doors are use in other countries, well blame the NTA, in other countries the driver wont be held responsible for a accident at the center door, but in Ireland the driver is held responsible, all thats needed for 100% use of center doors in Dublin is for the NTA to step up and accept responsibility for accidents at the center door.
Is there any precedent behind this? Has a driver every been blamed for an accident at the centre doors? If such a case did go to court how could the driver be blamed for an accident at the centre doors but not the front doors? It is either drivers are responsible for both or neither.

I find most of the drivers who do use the centre doors aren't really bothered with lining up with the kerb properly. There isn't really that many occasions when it is unsafe to open the centre doors. The problem is drivers refusing the operate them at all. If drivers always opened the middle doors when it is safe to do so they would be opened at least 95% of the time.

I don't think there is any other city in the world where the buses have multiple doors and the exit doors are not opened.
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08-01-2017, 16:31   #64
trellheim
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Cyclist-friendly - ha . make me chuckle. That is one thing it will definitely. not be


We really really do need a flat bus fare IMHO for a leap tag-on to reduce dwell.
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08-01-2017, 16:47   #65
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We really really do need a flat bus fare IMHO for a leap tag-on to reduce dwell.
It was madness that the Leap cards were introduced with driver interaction. It is no quicker than paying with cash and sometimes even slower.

To really speed up dwell times, there should be a €2 or €2.50 flat fare for Leap cards and no cash. Something also needs to be done to speed up the validators. Another validator should be added on the left side at the front doors and also have validators at the centre doors to allow multi-door entry/exit.
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08-01-2017, 17:19   #66
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It was madness that the Leap cards were introduced with driver interaction. It is no quicker than paying with cash and sometimes even slower.

To really speed up dwell times, there should be a €2 or €2.50 flat fare for Leap cards and no cash. Something also needs to be done to speed up the validators. Another validator should be added on the left side at the front doors and also have validators at the centre doors to allow multi-door entry/exit.
I completely agree that it needs to happen, but the problem is it's not just as simple as saying that from x date we will do it and everything will be fine, there are lots of parties that will want assurances on lots of things before we can do that.

The idea that the NTA can do it at a moments notice and no conversations need to be had with the operators or the unions or the staff and everyone is perfectly okay with that is pretty fanciful, it's simply not going to work like that because of the reasons I posted earlier.
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08-01-2017, 17:20   #67
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How to improve Dublin Bus Services in 2017?
1. Hire a German CEO and Management Team.
2. Make AGS Traffic and DCC keep the QBCs clear with funding penalties.

/Thread.
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08-01-2017, 17:25   #68
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Originally Posted by VG31 View Post
I find most of the drivers who do use the centre doors aren't really bothered with lining up with the kerb properly. There isn't really that many occasions when it is unsafe to open the centre doors. The problem is drivers refusing the operate them at all. If drivers always opened the middle doors when it is safe to do so they would be opened at least 95% of the time.
The argument I had with one driver involved him saying that it is not for me and you to tell him or her what is safe and what is not safe and it is at his or her discretion whether he or she opens the doors or not so the subject is not up for debate and he or she does not have to justify if he or she does or does not open his or her centre doors or not.

Therefore refusing to operate them at all stops is not the driver being awkward, in his or her view they are simply using their discretion which is what his union have told him he is entitled to do and what neither the company nor the NTA have decided to argue with.

That's the problem in a society where there is too much discretion and not enough rules.
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08-01-2017, 19:10   #69
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I completely agree that it needs to happen, but the problem is it's not just as simple as saying that from x date we will do it and everything will be fine, there are lots of parties that will want assurances on lots of things before we can do that.

The idea that the NTA can do it at a moments notice and no conversations need to be had with the operators or the unions or the staff and everyone is perfectly okay with that is pretty fanciful, it's simply not going to work like that because of the reasons I posted earlier.
I entirely agree that the NTA should consult the management and staff but presumably the groups involved would not have major issues with these proposals. As it removes driver interaction, the drivers' workload is significantly reduced so surely the unions won't have an issue with this? Though knowing the unions they will find some problem with it.

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1. Hire a German CEO and Management Team.
2. Make AGS Traffic and DCC keep the QBCs clear with funding penalties.

/Thread.
That's the one step that would solve everything!

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The argument I had with one driver involved him saying that it is not for me and you to tell him or her what is safe and what is not safe and it is at his or her discretion whether he or she opens the doors or not so the subject is not up for debate and he or she does not have to justify if he or she does or does not open his or her centre doors or not.

Therefore refusing to operate them at all stops is not the driver being awkward, in his or her view they are simply using their discretion which is what his union have told him he is entitled to do and what neither the company nor the NTA have decided to argue with.

That's the problem in a society where there is too much discretion and not enough rules.
Well clearly some drivers have decided that it's never 'safe' to open the centre doors. There are some rare situations where it is unsafe to open the rear doors but otherwise there are no excuses.

It shouldn't be an option for the driver to decide to open the centre doors or not except maybe in very rare cases such as if there is only a small gap for the stop if for example two trucks were blocking the stop.

Another way to solve the problem is the system they have on buses in some cities such as Vienna where when the bus stops the driver presses a door release button and opens the front door themselves but all the other doors are opened by the passengers with buttons inside and outside the bus. The doors then close automatically and the driver closes the front door and presses the door release button again to release the door lock.
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08-01-2017, 19:23   #70
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33 bus service should bypass the OUTSKIRTS of Swords. It takes AGES to get through the blasted town. The R132 I think. It'll only be a 5 minute walk into the town but save 20+ minutes trying to drive through the traffic jam town.
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08-01-2017, 19:33   #71
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Regarding bus stop distances, for example, the stop on Bachelor's Walk that serves the 25A and others from that direction has nearly 900 metres from there to the next stop at Nassau Street. Well Google maps says so anyway.

Is this a record!

There used to be a stop in D'Olier Street, but that's gone now.

People get used to it.

Flat fare with no cash/driver interraction in desperately needed too.
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08-01-2017, 19:41   #72
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If all 33s route through the port tunnel, how does someone get from Balbriggan/Skerries/Rush/Lusk get to Swords??

Last edited by BuffyBot; 10-01-2017 at 11:07. Reason: Remove too long quote
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08-01-2017, 20:42   #73
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I entirely agree that the NTA should consult the management and staff but presumably the groups involved would not have major issues with these proposals.
The major problem is the issue that it will have on revenue to Dublin Bus and the subsidy that it would require to run the service, this is why Dublin Bus has resisted some fare bands being merged in the last few years because they are worried about it's impact on the companies finances.

I think to be fair the issue with multi-door boarding and the fare system is not really a union or driver issue itself, it's much more an issue about funding and revenue between Dublin Bus and the NTA because of the fact that it could have a catastrophic impact on company finances and also the NTA is not simply going to offer a blank cheque over to cover any potential losses because then it risks turn into a black hole for money like the health service.

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Well clearly some drivers have decided that it's never 'safe' to open the centre doors. There are some rare situations where it is unsafe to open the rear doors but otherwise there are no excuses.

It shouldn't be an option for the driver to decide to open the centre doors or not except maybe in very rare cases such as if there is only a small gap for the stop if for example two trucks were blocking the stop.
The drivers view was that it is not for anyone to tell any driver what is safe and what is not and that should be left to the particular driver, on the particular day, of the particular bus and not subject to any rules and as with any kind of discretion you cannot set any conditions as to what can be done. Therefore it can be argued that should conditions be set, or them to have options removed, the staff are no longer being allowed to use their discretion which they will complain is unfair.

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Another way to solve the problem is the system they have on buses in some cities such as Vienna where when the bus stops the driver presses a door release button and opens the front door themselves but all the other doors are opened by the passengers with buttons inside and outside the bus. The doors then close automatically and the driver closes the front door and presses the door release button again to release the door lock.
Dublin Bus has doors that push outwards and a camera on the door at all times right now which is much more than most countries have, which basically removed the previous argument that people could get trapped in the door. The use of the door will be a further tool, but I still can't see the unions or the drivers agreeing to this, since they will argue passengers cannot see the kerb before opening the door and will walk out without looking therefore it's still an issue. Plus the drivers can simply just refuse to release the rear door.
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08-01-2017, 21:04   #74
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The drivers view was that it is not for anyone to tell any driver what is safe and what is not and that should be left to the particular driver, on the particular day, of the particular bus and not subject to any rules and as with any kind of discretion you cannot set any conditions as to what can be done. Therefore it can be argued that should conditions be set, or them to have options removed, the staff are no longer being allowed to use their discretion which they will complain is unfair.
If rules are not brought in nothing will change. The drivers should just be given whatever reassurances they need and then centre door usage should be made compulsory.

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but I still can't see the unions or the drivers agreeing to this, since they will argue passengers cannot see the kerb before opening the door and will walk out without looking therefore it's still an issue. Plus the drivers can simply just refuse to release the rear door.
So Irish people cannot be trusted to open the doors themselves but Austrians and Germans can?

Most of the time the button releases the front doors as well so the driver has to press the button or they cannot open the front doors (the only other way is with the emergency handle above the door).
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08-01-2017, 21:25   #75
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If rules are not brought in nothing will change. The drivers should just be given whatever reassurances they need and then centre door usage should be made compulsory.
I agree but that is my point, the drivers will not agree to rules being brought in because they were told at a labour court ruling in the past that they have the right to use their discretion when it is safe or not and to make that decision and the company cannot dictate to them when they can and cannot use the doors.

The only thing that will appease the drivers is if there is a blanket assurance that anyone who falls from the middle doors will not be the responsibility of the driver which is never going to happen because at the end of the day it basically allows a driver who is intentionally reckless or acting in a grossly unsafe manner a get out of jail free card and no company lawyer will authorize their client to sign such an agreement.

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So Irish people cannot be trusted to open the doors themselves but Austrians and Germans can?
I'm not saying what you say is wrong, I'm just playing devils advocate and saying what argument the other side are going to put across in relation to this should they be asked it.
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