Currently buying/selling a house? How is it going? READ MOD NOTE POST #1

21-06-2021 7:45pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Just heard back and "bizarrely", direct quote from Broker, turned down by Avant as 50% of deposit was gifted by parents. The only reason for that was vender wants it gone asap so rather than wait until next May when full deposit would have been saved, parents gifted 50%.

Broker was sure it was a done deal so didn't apply anywhere else. Broker now earning their money and is applying for loan offers not AIPs.

That is completely illogical by the bank if you have a record of saving. Their attitude toward gifts is bonkers. I am completing this week and PTSB required an a signed undertaking from my mother to waive her interest in the property despite her only giving me €3k a few months ago, as she does every year, as part of inheritance tax planning. And my cash balance (self saved) was over €100k and double the deposit required, so I didn’t even need that €3k anyway. The loan offer letter was dependent on it and the bank wouldn’t budge despite my broker pointing out the lack of logic. They forensically went through every non payroll credit to my account in the last 12 months

It amazes me that property prices are heading where they are when the banks are putting so many barriers in peoples way

Bannasidhe · 21-06-2021 8:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That is completely illogical by the bank if you have a record of saving. Their attitude toward gifts is nonsense. I I am completing this week and PTSB required an a signed undertaking from my mother to waive her interest in the property despite her only giving me €3k a few months ago, as she does every year, as part of inheritance tax planning. And my cash balance (self saved) was over €100k and double the deposit required, so I didn’t even need that €3k anyway. The loan offer letter was dependent on it and the bank wouldn’t budge despite my broker pointing out the lack of logic. They forensically went through every non payroll credit to my account in the last 12 months

It amazes me that property prices are heading where they are when the banks are putting so many barriers in peoples way

It's not me as I bought before the crash and was straight to loan offer on a tracker back then so it's all new to me. No doubt I'd be turned down now even though I never missed a payment.

It is utterly illogical. This is a person with a proven track record of making rent payments greater than the repayment would be, has zero personal loans, no dependents, permanent employment in an essential service on a salary that x3.5 more than covers the requested amount. Would pass a stress test (we checked) even though afaik for fixed rate this isn't applied.

To be turned down for getting a gift (all the necessary paperwork supplied) to ensure they could quickly buy a house being offered at a very fair price is mindboggling.

And at the same time govt is saying people should look to their parents for help with a deposit.

Marcusm · 21-06-2021 8:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Asking 250, last I heard was 290.

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-82-merchamp-seafield-road-east-clontarf-dublin-3-clontarf-dublin-3/3251223

And it’s not a 2 bed. Surely fire regs risk as “second” bedroom occupant can only effect egress through another habitable room.

tscul32 · 21-06-2021 8:59pm

Marcusm wrote: »

And it’s not a 2 bed. Surely fire regs risk as “second” bedroom occupant can only effect egress through another habitable room.

...or through the window of the ground floor apartment?

21-06-2021 11:04pm

Marcusm wrote: »

And it’s not a 2 bed. Surely fire regs risk as “second” bedroom occupant can only effect egress through another habitable room.

Each room has a sizeable window.

Paul_Mc1988 · 21-06-2021 11:14pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That is completely illogical by the bank if you have a record of saving. Their attitude toward gifts is bonkers. I am completing this week and PTSB required an a signed undertaking from my mother to waive her interest in the property despite her only giving me €3k a few months ago, as she does every year, as part of inheritance tax planning. And my cash balance (self saved) was over €100k and double the deposit required, so I didn’t even need that €3k anyway. The loan offer letter was dependent on it and the bank wouldn’t budge despite my broker pointing out the lack of logic. They forensically went through every non payroll credit to my account in the last 12 months

It amazes me that property prices are heading where they are when the banks are putting so many barriers in peoples way

Sorry but it's completely logical from the bank. Say you don't keep up payments and the bank start the repossession process and all of a sudden you start saying your mother owns part of the house.

This makes the process so much harder for them. They are coving their arse and are right to do so.

Dodge · 21-06-2021 11:17pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That is completely illogical by the bank if you have a record of saving. Their attitude toward gifts is bonkers. I am completing this week and PTSB required an a signed undertaking from my mother to waive her interest in the property despite her only giving me €3k a few months ago, as she does every year, as part of inheritance tax planning. And my cash balance (self saved) was over €100k and double the deposit required, so I didn’t even need that €3k anyway. The loan offer letter was dependent on it and the bank wouldn’t budge despite my broker pointing out the lack of logic. They forensically went through every non payroll credit to my account in the last 12 months

It amazes me that property prices are heading where they are when the banks are putting so many barriers in peoples way

They’re asking your mother for a letter. It’s not really an obstacle is it? we had to do similar when we first bought 15 or so years ago.

21-06-2021 11:20pm

Dodge wrote: »

They’re asking your mother for a letter. It’s not really an obstacle is it? we had to do similar when we first bought 15 or so years ago.

Suggesting that she has an interest in the property because she gave me €3k a few months ago when I had €100k savings built up? And I needed €50k?

Yes, it’s illogical

21-06-2021 11:25pm

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Sorry but it's completely logical from the bank. Say you don't keep up payments and the bank start the repossession process and all of a sudden you start saying your mother owns part of the house.

This makes the process so much harder for them. They are coving their arse and are right to do so.

IMO they are making it deliberately hard for FTBs. The poster in question had been paying rent for many years, and yet was still making regular savings, hit the salary multiples etc. And yet was disqualified because of a gift.

And I have heard of others in the same boat.

IMO is overly conservative to the point of being illogical, but there you go.....just my opinion

silver_sky · 21-06-2021 11:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Suggesting that she has an interest in the property because she gave me €3k a few months ago when I had €100k savings built up? And I needed €50k?

Yes, it’s illogical

Standard stuff. In fact, our solicitor was going to provide a letter for signature but the bank had their own form. It's just trying to ensure that there's no loose ends is all.

Jmc25 · 21-06-2021 11:30pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Asking 250, last I heard was 290.

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-82-merchamp-seafield-road-east-clontarf-dublin-3-clontarf-dublin-3/3251223

That's fairly eye watering for a 50 square meter, one bed apartment, regardless of the location.

javaboy · 21-06-2021 11:44pm

silver_sky wrote: »

Standard stuff. In fact, our solicitor was going to provide a letter for signature but the bank had their own form. It's just trying to ensure that there's no loose ends is all.

Fairly frustrating though if you were trying to keep the purchase quiet from a nosy or interfering family member.

silver_sky · 22-06-2021 12:07am

javaboy wrote: »

Fairly frustrating though if you were trying to keep the purchase quiet from a nosy or interfering family member.

From what I recall the letter didn't have any specific info on the property. In our case they knew we were buying, but not where or what until much much later.

Dodge · 22-06-2021 12:17am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Suggesting that she has an interest in the property because she gave me €3k a few months ago when I had €100k savings built up? And I needed €50k?

Yes, it’s illogical

They’re not suggesting anything. They’re asking for a letter to prevent a claim down the line. It’s really not a big deal.

stampydmonkey · 22-06-2021 5:47am

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/35-brookwood-avenue-artane-dublin-5-do5-p3f1/4507334

Asking €540k
Last time I checked with agent it was at €615k

Nice house and really well finished but very hard to compete at that price. Good luck to whoever got it.

Was actually bought for €380k in 2018 and renovated. https://propertypriceregisterireland.com/details/35_brookwood_avenue_artane_dublin_5_co_dublin_ireland-321091/
2018 advert
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/35-brookwood-avenue-artane-dublin-5/4061117

Never gonna happen but would be great if daft/my home kept the history/pics for every property for the previous sales.

Paul_Mc1988 · 22-06-2021 8:22am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

IMO they are making it deliberately hard for FTBs. The poster in question had been paying rent for many years, and yet was still making regular savings, hit the salary multiples etc. And yet was disqualified because of a gift.

And I have heard of others in the same boat.

IMO is overly conservative to the point of being illogical, but there you go.....just my opinion

Sorry your wrong again. It was Bannasidhe who was refused. My comment was in reply to woody who was not disqualified he just needed a letter. A very simple letter that would take a few minutes out of his mother's day to get signed.

There is no such thing as being overly cautious when it comes to loaning 100s of thousands to people and ensuring you have all angles covered.

22-06-2021 8:49am

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Sorry your wrong again. It was Bannasidhe who was refused. My comment was in reply to woody who was not disqualified he just needed a letter. A very simple letter that would take a few minutes out of his mother's day to get signed.

There is no such thing as being overly cautious when it comes to loaning 100s of thousands to people and ensuring you have all angles covered.

I was talking about the illogical approach to gifts where there is other evidence of ability to save. The poster being disqualified due to having received a parental gift, despite having evidenced their own ability to save, was subject to an illogical decision.

In my case, having to account for a small credit to my account from a third party when I already had double the deposit saved up, is illogical. It delayed the whole thing by over a week, making the vendors very antsy, as my mother lives overseas and doesn’t have a scanner in her home.....so post of 5 days in each direction

I don’t agree with you and I never will. I think that the banks are not helping the situation. I’ll leave it there as it’s off topic, but that’s my strongly held opinion.

Paul_Mc1988 · 22-06-2021 9:58am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was talking about the illogical approach to gifts where there is other evidence of ability to save. The poster being disqualified due to having received a parental gift, despite having evidenced their own ability to save, was subject to an illogical decision.

In my case, having to account for a small credit to my account from a third party when I already had double the deposit saved up, is illogical. It delayed the whole thing by over a week, making the vendors very antsy, as my mother lives overseas and doesn’t have a scanner in her home.....so post of 5 days in each direction

I don’t agree with you and I never will. I think that the banks are not helping the situation. I’ll leave it there as it’s off topic, but that’s my strongly held opinion.

I had 110k deposit on a 440k house which is probably unusual for a FTB and got a gift of 7k for fees and stamp duty. We took out 2.8 times our combined salary which is low. We needed the letter too and it also delayed but in the end its for legal reasons.

The banks were caught with this before delaying or stopping repossession completely. This has a knock on effect and adds to increased interest rates. The banks are not there to help the situation they're there to do business and cover themselves for all eventualities.

kippy · 22-06-2021 10:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

I was talking about the illogical approach to gifts where there is other evidence of ability to save. The poster being disqualified due to having received a parental gift, despite having evidenced their own ability to save, was subject to an illogical decision.

In my case, having to account for a small credit to my account from a third party when I already had double the deposit saved up, is illogical. It delayed the whole thing by over a week, making the vendors very antsy, as my mother lives overseas and doesn’t have a scanner in her home.....so post of 5 days in each direction

I don’t agree with you and I never will. I think that the banks are not helping the situation. I’ll leave it there as it’s off topic, but that’s my strongly held opinion.

This is why we cannot have nice things.
It's obvious that someone (or more) used this type of tactic in the past to hold up a repossession or seperation or the likes and now everyone must pay with a more convoluted process.
The actions of the few effect the many.
Once you make the declaration that it was a gift, the bank have to cover themselves.

Busi_Girl08 · 22-06-2021 10:18am

Re gifts we were advised by various different brokers and advisors from different banks that we would need to get a letter from the gifters that they're not seeking ownership of the property. This was at the very early fact finding stages of the mortgage journey and it was repeated a number of times. This definitely isn't a new thing and it sounds like it should have been flagged sooner.

Bannasidhe · 22-06-2021 10:38am

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

I had 110k deposit on a 440k house which is probably unusual for a FTB and got a gift of 7k for fees and stamp duty. We took out 2.8 times our combined salary which is low. We needed the letter too and it also delayed but in the end its for legal reasons.

The banks were caught with this before delaying or stopping repossession completely. This has a knock on effect and adds to increased interest rates. The banks are not there to help the situation they're there to do business and cover themselves for all eventualities.

May I just clarify - it wasn't me personally, it genuinely is a friend. I was asking here as it's been a long time since I went through this whole process so I wondered if this is normal.

In this case the required letters etc were in place. Literally all the paperwork was done and every box ticked to the extent the Broker was certain it was a done deal.

To be refused on the grounds that half the deposit was a legally accounted for gift from parents came as a surprise to everyone. Surely the important thing is evidence of secure ability to pay and a proven track record of paying rent?

I do find it utterly illogical that a bank would refuse a loan to someone on the part of the funds they technically have nothing to do with - the deposit.

That wasn't the subject of the loan application. To my way of thinking as long as the deposit is there and proof that it was either legally a gift, result of savings, liquidation of assets etc is provided then that box should be ticked and the bank focuses on their part of the application i.e. the amount being borrowed.

I do think FTB applying to Avant should be made aware this has happened.
Broker has never encountered it before.

Let's hope the other banks don't do likewise or people could lose their only opportunity to buy - in this instance it's pretty much this person's only chance.

kippy · 22-06-2021 10:47am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

May I just clarify - it wasn't me personally, it genuinely is a friend. I was asking here as it's been a long time since I went through this whole process so I wondered if this is normal.

In this case the required letters etc were in place. Literally all the paperwork was done and every box ticked to the extent the Broker was certain it was a done deal.

To be refused on the grounds that half the deposit was a legally accounted for gift from parents came as a surprise to everyone. Surely the important thing is evidence of secure ability to pay and a proven track record of paying rent?

I do find it utterly illogical that a bank would refuse a loan to someone on the part of the funds they technically have nothing to do with - the deposit.

That wasn't the subject of the loan application. To my way of thinking as long as the deposit is there and proof that it was either legally a gift, result of savings, liquidation of assets etc is provided then that box should be ticked and the bank focuses on their part of the application i.e. the amount being borrowed.

I do think FTB applying to Avant should be made aware this has happened.
Broker has never encountered it before.

Let's hope the other banks don't do likewise or people could lose their only opportunity to buy - in this instance it's pretty much this person's only chance.

Once you declare a gift, the paperwork on it has to be completed. It is unfortunately, as simple as that by the looks of things.
It does look like a declared gift has led to a hold up or issue with some process within an institution in the past and this has led to stricter requirements (for this institution at least)

22-06-2021 10:59am

stampydmonkey wrote: »

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/35-brookwood-avenue-artane-dublin-5-do5-p3f1/4507334

Asking €540k
Last time I checked with agent it was at €615k

Nice house and really well finished but very hard to compete at that price. Good luck to whoever got it.

Was actually bought for €380k in 2018 and renovated. https://propertypriceregisterireland.com/details/35_brookwood_avenue_artane_dublin_5_co_dublin_ireland-321091/
2018 advert
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/35-brookwood-avenue-artane-dublin-5/4061117

Never gonna happen but would be great if daft/my home kept the history/pics for every property for the previous sales.

They must have seen number 10 across the road go for €650k from a asking of €495k and thought now’s the time to sell.

Bannasidhe · 22-06-2021 11:03am

kippy wrote: »

Once you declare a gift, the paperwork on it has to be completed. It is unfortunately, as simple as that by the looks of things.
It does look like a declared gift has led to a hold up or issue with some process within an institution in the past and this has led to stricter requirements (for this institution at least)

I have said several times all the paperwork was done.

Avant's own form re:gift was uploaded with the rest of the application. The parent's in this case legally declared it was a gift, tax compliant, and they would have no legal interest in the property.

The refusal was because they said 'too much' (50%) of the deposit was a gift. Not because the paperwork wasn't supplied - it was.
If this is Avant's position people should be aware of it as it could have huge implications for FTBs.

My point is that as long as the deposit is obtained according to Central Bank and Revenue's rules (which it was) then lenders should focus on ability to pay not on the part of the funds they are not being asked to lend.

javaboy · 22-06-2021 11:24am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My point is that as long as the deposit is obtained according to Central Bank and Revenue's rules (which it was) then lenders should focus on ability to pay not on the part of the funds they are not being asked to lend.

CB and Revenue rules are only the bare minimum. I'd argue the deposit and how it was earned/saved/won on the horses over what period of time has a huge bearing on your risk as a borrower.

Not talking about this case specifically but I think it's fair to consider it when it makes up a significant portion of the deposit e.g. did this gift just speed things along or would you not have been able to get the deposit together without help?

Bannasidhe · 22-06-2021 12:02pm

javaboy wrote: »

CB and Revenue rules are only the bare minimum. I'd argue the deposit and how it was earned/saved/won on the horses over what period of time has a huge bearing on your risk as a borrower.

Not talking about this case specifically but I think it's fair to consider it when it makes up a significant portion of the deposit e.g. did this gift just speed things along or would you not have been able to get the deposit together without help?

Well, all I can say is the Broker would disagree as he said he has never known this to happen and the only explanation he can come up with is Avant being new to the Irish market are being especially cautious.
He was so certain he didn't apply to any other lender.
Those applications have now been made.

As for "not being able to get the deposit together without help" - this is hardly uncommon. It's so common Govt extends help via tax breaks but only to those buying new builds.

As I said - I am highlighting it here so that people thinking of applying to Avant are aware this has happened.

Dodge · 22-06-2021 12:08pm

Kinda sounds like the broker messed up and is blaming avant because he/she didn’t have everything they needed

No harm in it being highlighted here but ‘I’ve never heard of this before’ isn’t quite the defence the broker thinks IMO

givyjoe · 22-06-2021 12:31pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well, all I can say is the Broker would disagree as he said he has never known this to happen and the only explanation he can come up with is Avant being new to the Irish market are being especially cautious.
He was so certain he didn't apply to any other lender.
Those applications have now been made.

As for "not being able to get the deposit together without help" - this is hardly uncommon. It's so common Govt extends help via tax breaks but only to those buying new builds.

As I said - I am highlighting it here so that people thinking of applying to Avant are aware this has happened.

Well that's still 'criminal' on behalf of the broker tbf, as is borne out by the rejection. They could and should have had at least one other option for the applicant, it's a massive part of the whole point of going to a broker, i.e. one app, multiple AIP's. I know Avant only deal with brokers, still poor form from them not to have their bases covered.

My own broker has actually already warned us that Avant are extremely fussy (and slow) with applications.

tscul32 · 22-06-2021 12:39pm

House in my area went up for €385k about 6 weeks ago. Went sale agreed after 2 or 3 weeks, no idea of price. Sign was replaced today with that of a different EA and is now online at €420k.

Bannasidhe · 22-06-2021 12:56pm

givyjoe wrote: »

Well that's still 'criminal' on behalf of the broker tbf, as is borne out by the rejection. They could and should have had at least one other option for the applicant, it's a massive part of the whole point of going to a broker, i.e. one app, multiple AIP's. I know Avant only deal with brokers, still poor form from them not to have their bases covered.

My own broker has actually already warned us that Avant are extremely fussy (and slow) with applications.

I agree, and was nagging my friend to instruct broker to make multiple applications but they were both so sure....

Broker is now doing those multiple applications and friend is hoping vendor will be patient.

Currently buying/selling a house? How is it going? READ MOD NOTE POST #1

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