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Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

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Comments

  • #302
    animaal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 815 ✭✭✭animaal


    IMO, the main problem here is "Benchmarking" in 2000. It was a corrupt grab for votes, with no transparency. It drove a wedge between the public and private sectors.

    Regardless of whether public sector pay is now increased or decreased, the trust won't be there.

    The only way I think trust can be reestablished would be a proper benchmarking initiative, with full transparency and independent governance of the process. Quite possibly some public sectors would see increases, others decreases. But the end result would be fair.

    However, look at the politicians we have. Fairness and trust don't get a look in. All that matters is who shouts loudest.


  • #303
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,041 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    animaal wrote: »
    IMO, the main problem here is "Benchmarking" in 2000. It was a corrupt grab for votes, with no transparency. It drove a wedge between the public and private sectors.

    Regardless of whether public sector pay is now increased or decreased, the trust won't be there.

    The only way I think trust can be reestablished would be a proper benchmarking initiative, with full transparency and independent governance of the process. Quite possibly some public sectors would see increases, others decreases. But the end result would be fair.

    However, look at the politicians we have. Fairness and trust don't get a look in. All that matters is who shouts loudest.

    It was ''upward only benchmarking'', it was quickly forgot about when the professionals they were benchmarking against were losing their jobs


  • #304
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,196 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    wrangler wrote: »
    It was ''upward only benchmarking'', it was quickly forgot about when the professionals they were benchmarking against were losing their jobs

    Absolutely, there was no talk of benchmarking during the recession, they were too busy pulling the ladder up after themselves.


  • #305
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,041 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Absolutely, there was no talk of benchmarking during the recession, they were too busy pulling the ladder up after themselves.


    Brilliant, there has to be a cartoon depicting that somewhere.....or there shoulda been, at the time


  • #306
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Riskymove wrote: »
    actual quote form article



    each received an average salary.........I despair sometimes

    An office administrator employed by Facebook is receiving that as a basic salary? Doubtful.

    The financial statements would show what the total payroll was. Dividing that by the number of direct employees gives the average salary. It doesn’t mean that every employee gets that basic. The use of the word ‘each’ in the article is bizarre. They can only go by the total payroll and the number of employees. Unless they think lowly administrator is getting the same basic pay as Head of EMEA Operations or whatever.

    So, despair all you like.


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  • #307
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    So, despair all you like.

    er.....I think that went over your head

    I was despairing at the misuse of stats in the quote

    you have made my exact point...no one "receives an average wage"...


  • #308
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,152 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    mvl wrote: »
    Before envying them, you'd need to include what is their average working hours/week. I'd assume its the american style, not the PS style.
    I don't envy any of that FB/google... elite: they are selling their lives for the money they are getting (=working extremely long hours).
    - I would rather envy an HSE worker that gets higher salary than me, with half the hours worked weekly, and possibly similar responsibility. But I guess that would not be the average PS wages we're talking about on this thread.

    I would guess that the average Facebook worker, like most private sector employees work their bare minimum contracted hours.

    It is only in the public sector and in business ownerships that I have seen people regularly working 60+ hours a week.


  • #309
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Riskymove wrote: »
    er.....I think that went over your head

    I was despairing at the misuse of stats in the quote

    you have made my exact point...no one "receives an average wage"...

    Ah, I see. Yes, exactly. How can one’s salary be an average?


  • #310
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I would guess that the average Facebook worker, like most private sector employees work their bare minimum contracted hours.

    It is only in the public sector and in business ownerships that I have seen people regularly working 60+ hours a week.

    You mustn't have much exposure to the private sector then!


  • #311
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    granturismo wrote: »
    I'm paying €30 an hour for grinds with qualified teachers in N Kildare. If someone wants to pay me €40 for an hour I'll take it.

    I think approx 80% of Leaving Cert students get grinds - there's the demand.


    I've paid 3 contractors cash in hand to get reductions on €150, €200 and €1800 jobs. Nixers are not confined to the PS.
    Proper order too when you see where tax is wasted on dole spongers


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  • #312
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Edgware wrote: »
    Proper order too when you see where tax is wasted on dole spongers

    Which is tiny. And nothing said about the lucrative pensions of the politicians who were involved in all the mess.


  • #313
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Naos wrote: »
    So paying into a pension is a tax now?
    dotsman wrote: »
    To be fair, I wouldn't consider pension contributions to be a "tax".

    Interesting that you're both under the impression that public sector employees paying the Pension Related Deduction (to be made permanent and renamed the ASC from January 2019) of 10.5% on top of PAYE/USC/PRSI etc means they are putting that money into their pension. They are doing no such thing, despite the misnomer. It all goes into a general government tax pot:
    The PRD will be replaced by the ASC from 1 January 2019. The PRD was a levy that was imposed on public servants under the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Acts. It is not a pension contribution.(Your ultimate guide to pensions)


  • #314
    fxotoole
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭fxotoole


    limnam wrote: »
    From march last year.


    Davy stockbrokers have today released a report on public sector pay in Ireland.
    The report has found that average public sector wages are €47,400 in Ireland, 40% higher than in the private sector


    I don't know how they survive.

    Average is skewed upwards. What does the report say about the median salary?


  • #315
    fxotoole
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭fxotoole


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    Where can you get a room for 280 euro a month?.

    In the *rsehole of Kerry, where there’s no jobs, infrastructure, or services, probably


  • #316
    Doc07
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭Doc07


    n97 mini wrote: »
    +1

    Similarly I've a friend in "FB/google" on 150k a year, contracted to do 40 hours a week but does about 80 hours. Basically he's working almost every hour he's awake. Conversely I've a friend who is a college lecturer on 90k, is contracted to do 18 hours a week 35 weeks of the year. He probably averages about 22 hours when busy term time and not busy summer holidays are taken into account.

    One has a good job, the other has a great job.

    Your friend does indeed have a great job. But at 90k he is a senior lecturer or associate professor. How many years as lecturer on 40/50/60k did he work before promotion? And how many years as PhD /post doc on scraps.


  • #317
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Doc07 wrote: »
    Your friend does indeed have a great job. But at 90k he is a senior lecturer or associate professor. How many years as lecturer on 40/50/60k did he work before promotion? And how many years as PhD /post doc on scraps.




    pointless argument, the 150k FB worker normally starts on a pittance also.


  • #318
    Doc07
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭Doc07


    Naos wrote: »
    So paying into a pension is a tax now?

    And also all 304,472 of them earn over 34k? So what is their net take-home per month?

    The PRD is separate to ie on top of , pension contribution.
    It is also applied to overtime ie it is applied to non-pensionable pay. It is absolutely a tax.
    I would have had more respect for the dept at the time if they called it ‘extra 10% National emergency bailout on PS because you are all conveniently Paye and easy to grab it and you have fairly good pensions so optics are good tax’


  • #319
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Doc07 wrote: »
    The PRD is separate to ie on top of , pension contribution.
    It is also applied to overtime ie it is applied to non-pensionable pay. It is absolutely a tax.
    I would have had more respect for the dept at the time if they called it ‘extra 10% National emergency bailout on PS because you are all conveniently Paye and easy to grab it and you have fairly good pensions so optics are good tax’

    It was a pay reduction dressed up as a pension contribution. Interestingly, a lot of the individuals who had it applied to them think they are paying into a pension. That shows the calibre of Irish public servants.


  • #320
    Doc07
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭Doc07


    limnam wrote: »
    pointless argument, the 150k FB worker normally starts on a pittance also.

    If you took the few seconds to engage then it’s not pointless.
    I happen to agree with your example of the FB guy on 150k that didn’t walk into that salary.
    Apart from few exceptions e.g. the odd nepotism, political or family appointment , nobody on >100,000 per year hasn’t got graft or talent (or a combination) behind it.


  • #321
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    limnam wrote: »
    pointless argument, the 150k FB worker normally starts on a pittance also.

    A PhD student gets paid tax free but if you were to get the same net while paying tax they would get between about 19k and 21k. Any software developer who has wound up on massive money on Facebook will have started on mid 35k+ at the very least and will have bee on well over 40k, likely over 50k by the time the PhD student finisheds afer 4 to 5 years.

    The rate of salary increase in the private sector is vastly faster than the public sector. You might have a teacher coming up to retirement on 60k with is fairly s1it pay for someone with 30 years experience. You will find a lot of people in the private sector in their early 30’s on 60k and a lot more.


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  • #322
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    A PhD student gets paid tax free but if you were to get the same net while paying tax they would get between about 19k and 21k. Anyone software developer who as wound up on massive money on Facebook will have started on mid 30’s at the very least and will have bee on well over 40k, likely over 50k by the time the PhD student finisheds afer 4 to 5 years.


    It's not the case. Some dev's start out on minimum or just above min wage. There's enough threads on boards about them.


    The person in question might have been a PhD student....


    Again it's pointless to take this situation in isolation.



    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    The rate of salary increase in the private sector is vastly faster than the public sector. You might have a teacher coming up to retirement on 60k with us fairly s1it pay for someone with 30 years experience. You will find a lot of people in the private sector in their early 30’s on 60k and a lot more.


    There's a huge amount of jobs in the private sector where your not deemed worthy of these salary's and find it very hard to get increments.


    I can't think of many PS jobs that have no guaranteed increment structure



    While those people maybe on 60k in the private sector their job is _always_ at risk.


    There's a lot to be said for guaranteed increments/job for life etc.


  • #323
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    A PhD student gets paid tax free but if you were to get the same net while paying tax they would get between about 19k and 21k. Any software developer who has wound up on massive money on Facebook will have started on mid 35k+ at the very least and will have bee on well over 40k, likely over 50k by the time the PhD student finisheds afer 4 to 5 years.

    The rate of salary increase in the private sector is vastly faster than the public sector. You might have a teacher coming up to retirement on 60k with is fairly s1it pay for someone with 30 years experience. You will find a lot of people in the private sector in their early 30’s on 60k and a lot more.

    You're forgetting that trainee/junior software engineers can start in their 2*k.
    - also, I'd expect whoever is referred to as software developer must have at least few years "production" experience in a full time role - while in same time, I thought ppl can get 3 years full time PhDs these days (instead of 4/5) ?

    But for private sector, (at least my domain) I find appropriate how employers would reward with high salaries talent & domain experience, instead of looking only at academic degrees.
    Also, the statement about fast rate of salary increase for private domain doesn't apply to the companies I've been exposed to. IMO the only way ppl do get massive jumps in their paye in private sector is when they move companies - something in public sector may happen less frequent.

    Hence, maybe same as in private sector, you can end up with a lower salary in public sector when you're 60, when you had no intention to change for a better paid role.


  • #324
    Doc07
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭Doc07


    Again it's pointless to take this situation in isolation.


    It’s boards.ie, pointing out single examples and anecdotes is de Rigueur I thought. Systematic analysis, review and measured opinion is for my real life, not trivial pursuit browsing on my phone between pints. Sorry for lowering the standards, I’ll stay in the cycling forum in future!

    There's a huge amount of jobs in the private sector where your not deemed worthy of these salary's and find it very hard to get increments.

    Agree


    I can't think of many PS jobs that have no guaranteed increment structure

    Agree but in plenty you can top out early and limited options to move up except into more HR/management type positions rather than in your actual skill.

    While those people maybe on 60k in the private sector their job is _always_ at risk.

    Agree in part,

    There's a lot to be said for guaranteed increments/job for life etc

    Agree


  • #325
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    limnam wrote: »

    There's a huge amount of jobs in the private sector where your not deemed worthy of these salary's and find it very hard to get increments.

    .

    Of course there is as there is large amounts of low skilled work in the private sector that will always be low paid. A teacher is a highly skilled and massively important job with huge responsibly for the education of the next generation.

    It needs to pay well to get the people you want into teaching and currently the pay is but attractive to skilled people who can earn much more elsewhere.

    Ive a PhD in a science discipline and I would condeier teaching the subject but even with a PhD and a good few years experience working in research I’d have to do a hdip for 2 years which is massively expensive (even though I’m fully qualified to lecture 2/3 main science subjects and have done so) and start on about 35k after all that. If I was able to do the hdip and start on 50k+ I might consider it but spend a bomb, earn nothing for two years and take a big pay cut then if I even got a full time job with very small increases every year.... no thanks.
    mvl wrote: »
    You're forgetting that trainee/junior software engineers can start in their 2*k.
    - also, I'd expect whoever is referred to as software developer must have at least few years "production" experience in a full time role - while in same time, I thought ppl can get 3 years full time PhDs these days (instead of 4/5) ?

    I know lots of people who are software developers or started out as that and are now project managers etc (some very close friends). All started on mid 30ks straight out of their degrees with the title “software developer” also I might add.

    PhDs in science in three years are extremely rare, 5 years is vastly more common than 3 years.


  • #326
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    Of course there is as there is large amounts of low skilled work in the private sector that will always be low paid. A teacher is a highly skilled and massively important job with huge responsibly for the education of the next generation.

    Teaching is simple. Some peoples jobs involve learning, which is much harder. All teachers do is walk around saying "who let that fart" for 4 hours a day 200 days a year for forty years and then walk off with a big pension.


  • #327
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Teaching is simple. Some peoples jobs involve learning, which is much harder. All teachers do is walk around saying "who let that fart" for 4 hours a day 200 days a year for forty years and then walk off with a big pension.

    This alone shows the level of ignorance to how difficult a job teaching is, you haven’t even the slightest clue about it. This post should be framed as to show the stupidity of people who think it’s easy.


  • #328
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    This alone shows the level of ignorance to how difficult a job teaching is, you haven’t even the slightest clue about it. This post should be framed as to show the stupidity of people who think it’s easy.

    That is all the teachers I saw at school did. Tell me its hard!


  • #329
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    Of course there is as there is large amounts of low skilled work in the private sector that will always be low paid. A teacher is a highly skilled and massively important job with huge responsibly for the education of the next generation.




    It needs to pay well to get the people you want into teaching and currently the pay is but attractive to skilled people who can earn much more elsewhere.



    There's plenty of people working in jobs that require degree level on ****e pay with no real guarantee of earning much more.



    Teachers are paid very well considering the amount of hours they have to actually work.


    Why can other countries manage to get the required talent on much lower salaries ?



    Do they really need to be that skilled? I can't recall having too many "smart" teachers in primary/secondary and lecturers later on were _slightly_ better. sometimes.


    I think people within education have a skewed view on the level required.


    "they're educating the future" if that's what we're basing it on based on the present we probably need to revamp our education system.


  • #330
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    This alone shows the level of ignorance to how difficult a job teaching is, you haven’t even the slightest clue about it. This post should be framed as to show the stupidity of people who think it’s easy.


    A lot of teachers make it easy for themselves and the way our system is setup it allows them to.



    A lot of the time the "hard" part of been a teacher has more to do with the post code you teach in than anything else.


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  • #331
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    limnam wrote: »

    "they're educating the future"
    Emotional blackmail. Parents should teach children to read and then they can learn what they want from books or the internet. Teachers have managed to create this alternative universe where everybody has to go to school so they can keep their jobs and pensions.


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