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Too many teachers in our schools are Irish nationals

124

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea



    Why should there be non-Irish teachers in our schools anyway? Emigrants came here for work and family reasons, this is Ireland, did they expect that their children would be taught by teachers from their own countries?

    I see no reason why there should be an increase in non-national primary school teachers in Ireland...at the same time I see no reason why non Irish people shouldn't get jobs as primary school teachers if they have the necessary qualifications but I don't think its something that should be driven to any degree. It most likely will happen slowly and gradually as immigrant children go through the education system and get the necessary qualifications.

    So it's grand and dandy for de foreigners to come and clean our Toilets, empty our bins, clean up puke in hospitals etc, whilst living in gawd knows what kind of conditions etc.

    But not OK that we consider having non Irish teachers that might help educate and understand the children of the minimum waged immigrants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Chinasea wrote: »
    So it's grand and dandy for de foreigners to come and clean our Toilets, empty our bins, clean up puke in hospitals etc, whilst living in gawd knows what kind of conditions etc.

    A considerable number of immigrants have high paying jobs as well you know.
    But not OK that we consider having non Irish teachers that might help educate and understand the children of the minimum waged immigrants.

    The children of these immigrants would be Irish. Those children can then grow up here and teach. No restrictions. Although I do agree on the Catholic part. That should probably go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    _Brian wrote: »
    Entrance to college places is 100% transparent, everyone from every background gets a chance to apply to train to be a teacher.

    But if your not arsed to get sufficient education to apply and be successful then those that are get the places.

    More focus on the most suitable for the positions and less focus on ensuring every skin colour and ethnic minority is represented.

    This is, of course fine, if you follow the traditional path of education in this country. But if say, you are a child and you emigrate to Ireland when you 9 years old, then you are automatically at a disadvantage because you do not have Irish.

    Therefore, you do not have the same chance as everyone else. The fact that over 20% of the population are foreign-born means that these people will forever be locked out of certain old traditional jobs, such as the civil service, the Gardai, the teaching profession.

    This is why primary teaching is made up of the same type of people as they did 30 years ago. They should add in rural to the white, female, Catholic label as well.
    Of course those in the industry will defend this gerrymandering of this profession, as opening it up to candidates outside of Ireland may mean they have to compete with foreign-born teachers.

    The fact is, to be a primary teacher, you need to have a H3 in Honors Irish, yet just a pass in both pass English and Maths. It's 100% discriminatory in my opinion. Those in the Teaching Council and Unions are cut from the same cloth. They welcome the Polish with open arms but would be horrified if they were eligible to be teachers here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea


    A considerable number of immigrants have high paying jobs as well you know.

    Not the point in this instance.


    The children of these immigrants would be Irish. Those children can then grow up here and teach. No restrictions. Although I do agree on the Catholic part. That should probably go.

    Not the point either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Chinasea wrote: »
    But not OK that we consider having non Irish teachers that might help educate and understand the children of the minimum waged immigrants.

    Why do you think there is a need for that? I'm an immigrant myself, but I never felt the need to have my kids educated by non-Irish or same nationality as me.
    And why will the ones on minimal wage be any different?
    As an immigrant, this kind of patronizing and fake care really boils my peas. We don't need any special treatment, my kids were just fine until now, leave them alone, don't try to destroy the education system just to tick another box.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Always thought it the height of stupidity that language teachers in particular are Irish ,,, most can't even speak the language they are teaching properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭An tUasal C


    markodaly wrote: »
    This is, of course fine, if you follow the traditional path of education in this country. But if say, you are a child and you emigrate to Ireland when you 9 years old, then you are automatically at a disadvantage because you do not have Irish.

    Therefore, you do not have the same chance as everyone else. The fact that over 20% of the population are foreign-born means that these people will forever be locked out of certain old traditional jobs, such as the civil service, the Gardai, the teaching profession.

    Not sure where you are getting nine years of age from.. Exemptions can be gained begin from the age of 11.

    Nothing stopping anyone from studying Irish anyway if they so wish, I know someone who took it up after moving here at the start of secondary school.

    You do not need Irish to be a Garda, you need English or Irish along with an additional second language.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea


    Cordell wrote: »
    Why do you think there is a need for that? I'm an immigrant myself, but I never felt the need to have my kids educated by non-Irish or same nationality as me.
    And why will the ones on minimal wage be any different?
    As an immigrant, this kind of patronizing and fake care really boils my peas. We don't need any special treatment, my kids were just fine until now, leave them alone, don't try to destroy the education system just to tick another box.

    Marofats, hold the horsee's.

    The thread states there are too many Irish nationals as teachers. This is obviously an opinion, based on observation most likely.

    My response was answering as to why we might consider spreading the net and CONSIDER non Irish nationals as teachers.

    Some of us have special needs you know that come in all shapes, colours and sizes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Chinasea wrote: »
    Not the point either.

    So what is your point, exactly?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Not sure where you are getting nine years of age from.. Exemptions can be gained begin from the age of 11.

    Nothing stopping anyone from studying Irish anyway if they so wish, I know someone who took it up after moving here at the start of secondary school.

    You do not need Irish to be a Garda, you need English or Irish along with an additional second language.

    Yes, they can be exempted but then cannot ever become a primary teacher. That's the problem.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭An tUasal C


    markodaly wrote: »
    Yes, they can be exempted but then cannot ever become a primary teacher. That's the problem.

    Foreign trained primary teachers can sit an Irish exam to allow them to teach here. If they were truly dedicated to teaching in Ireland an option is available to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea


    So what is your point, exactly?

    #92


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    markodaly wrote: »
    This is, of course fine, if you follow the traditional path of education in this country. But if say, you are a child and you emigrate to Ireland when you 9 years old, then you are automatically at a disadvantage because you do not have Irish.

    Therefore, you do not have the same chance as everyone else. The fact that over 20% of the population are foreign-born means that these people will forever be locked out of certain old traditional jobs, such as the civil service, the Gardai, the teaching profession.

    This is why primary teaching is made up of the same type of people as they did 30 years ago. They should add in rural to the white, female, Catholic label as well.
    Of course those in the industry will defend this gerrymandering of this profession, as opening it up to candidates outside of Ireland may mean they have to compete with foreign-born teachers.

    The fact is, to be a primary teacher, you need to have a H3 in Honors Irish, yet just a pass in both pass English and Maths. It's 100% discriminatory in my opinion. Those in the Teaching Council and Unions are cut from the same cloth. They welcome the Polish with open arms but would be horrified if they were eligible to be teachers here.

    Irish is not some mythical unattainable language though. If a person arrives in the country and a job they desire requires a proficiency in the national language then they can study it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭pearcider


    Chinasea wrote: »
    Marofats, hold the horsee's.

    The thread states there are too many Irish nationals as teachers. This is obviously an opinion, based on observation most likely.

    My response was answering as to why we might consider spreading the net and CONSIDER non Irish nationals as teachers.

    Some of us have special needs you know that come in all shapes, colours and sizes.

    An opinion based on politics more likely. Left wing politics to be precise. It’s an affirmative action type program these left wingers want. Instead of the job going to the most suitably qualified they want a quota for non nationals to the exclusion of the natives. It’s discrimination touted as “diversity”. I really hope a right wing party comes along quickly for this country because the lunatics have taken over the asylum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,880 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Not sure where you are getting nine years of age from.. Exemptions can be gained begin from the age of 11.

    Nothing stopping anyone from studying Irish anyway if they so wish, I know someone who took it up after moving here at the start of secondary school.

    You do not need Irish to be a Garda, you need English or Irish along with an additional second language.

    We know the requirements, the question is; why?

    As I said to Franz: If you have a young, talented person who is good at engaging and inspiring kids, and makes school interesting and fun for them; where in the hell does this idea come from that they aren't a good teacher because they don't speak Irish or weren't born here or aren't Catholic?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭An tUasal C


    We know the requirements, the question is; why?

    As I said to Franz: If you have a young, talented person who is good at engaging and inspiring kids, and makes school interesting and fun for them; where in the hell does this idea come from that they aren't a good teacher because they don't speak Irish or weren't born here or aren't Catholic?

    I don't think anyone said that, or well I certainly don't think that. Not being Irish doesn't equate to not speaking Irish - there are Irish people that have Irish exemptions too.

    Would we want that person to teach if they had poor English skills? No. Being good with children is one thing, teaching is another. A high standard should be expected in what they are teaching.

    A primary teacher should be the full package so to say, and since the Irish language is on the curriculum they should be able to teach it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    zapitastas wrote: »
    Irish is not some mythical unattainable language though. If a person arrives in the country and a job they desire requires a proficiency in the national language then they can study it.

    If there was a movement to remove the need for fluent English to facilitate migrants who got here aged 9, I’m sure markodaly would be first to the barricades to protest about political correctness gone mad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    daheff wrote: »
    cmon now. Do you really think the unions would publish written evidence to this? They'd be dragged through the European courts and torn a new backdoor.


    Like a lot of things in Ireland this is done on a nod & a wink basis.

    How do you know it's true then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea


    pearcider wrote: »
    An opinion based on politics more likely. Left wing politics to be precise. It’s an affirmative action type program these left wingers want. Instead of the job going to the most suitably qualified they want a quota for non nationals to the exclusion of the natives. It’s discrimination touted as “diversity”. I really hope a right wing party comes along quickly for this country because the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

    Jeez, will you get rid of the labeling machine. I am not left, right nor centre.

    To me now it seems, you pull someone up on downright racism, your called a PC politically wing'd looney liberal like that's some kind major sin.

    If you name call and label often enough, the sheep just follow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    We know the requirements, the question is; why?

    As I said to Franz: If you have a young, talented person who is good at engaging and inspiring kids, and makes school interesting and fun for them; where in the hell does this idea come from that they aren't a good teacher because they don't speak Irish or weren't born here or aren't Catholic?

    Nobody said that. All countries have certain restrictions on government professions - bring skilled at official languages is generally one of them. There are often other barriers as well.

    The general point that if a school is 90% Irish the school staff should no more than 90% Irish is nonsensical. It shouldn’t matter, of course and as the children of migrants go through the system they can apply.

    In particular in cases (like now) of strong demographic changes there isn’t really any way for the system to keep up. A school teacher is generally employed for life. A 60 year old teacher is statistically likely to be white and Irish and Catholic because when she was applying the country was 95% + Irish Catholic white. Female because of tradition.

    If you want the teaching population to represent the demographics of students now then most all future hires would be minorities (as the number of new hires is a fraction of the total employed at any one time).

    Alternatively just wait a few generations.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Foreign trained primary teachers can sit an Irish exam to allow them to teach here. If they were truly dedicated to teaching in Ireland an option is available to them.

    Another hurdle to jump through, which creates an artificial barrier to the job, which makes the profession the domain of female, rural white Irish Catholics.

    As I said, the longer we have the status quo, the more discriminatory it becomes.

    How many foreign trained teachers are primary school teachers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,060 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    markodaly wrote: »
    Another hurdle to jump through, which creates an artificial barrier to the job, which makes the profession the domain of female, rural white Irish Catholics.

    As I said, the longer we have the status quo, the more discriminatory it becomes.

    How many foreign trained teachers are primary school teachers?


    there is nothing about being white, catholic or rural that makes it easier to learn irish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,880 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I don't think anyone said that, or well I certainly don't think that. Not being Irish doesn't equate to not speaking Irish - there are Irish people that have Irish exemptions too.

    Would we want that person to teach if they had poor English skills? No. Being good with children is one thing, teaching is another. A high standard should be expected in what they are teaching.

    A primary teacher should be the full package so to say, and since the Irish language is on the curriculum they should be able to teach it.

    Thread title specifies "Irish nationals".

    The English language point is a non-starter., unless you're implying teachers need Irish in order to communicate with the students.

    Disagree with the last part and put forward a alternate proposal, see quote below. Another would be to scrap compulsory Irish (whole different debate, to be fair).

    At this point, the whole thing becomes a catch-22 situation: we need Irish speakers so that they can teach kids Irish so that they'll have it if they want to be come teachers so that they can tech kids Irish so that -- you get the idea.
    Needlessly limiting and classic inside-the-box thinking. No reason why Irish couldn't be thought as a specialist subject by specialist trained teachers. The students who don't want to do Irish benefit, the students who do want to do Irish benefit, the language benefits.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    zapitastas wrote: »
    Irish is not some mythical unattainable language though. If a person arrives in the country and a job they desire requires a proficiency in the national language then they can study it.

    As I said, it creates an artificial barrier to the job, a discriminatory one at that, which protects Irish born and Irish educated teachers against foreign-trained teachers, who would be just as good, if not better.

    At least admit the consequence of this Irish language policy in education has now had.

    This is a very good example of the duality and the nonsense of the welcoming Irish. One one hand, we gladly accept Poles or other Eastern Europeans coming here by the tens of thousands, but we create stupid rules to lock these people out of state and public sector jobs. I suppose they are good enough only to be your waiter or cleaner, but god forbid they teach in a classroom or end up as a clerical officer or executive officer in some department.

    Many middle-class jobs like those are out of bounds for our new residents. Got to love the Irish hypocrisy.

    Ah, sure they can always just go off and spend thousands of euro learning the language to apply for those jobs, right? As if that is a valid argument to the status quo. Its like saying to the teenager from an inner-city council estate that they have the same odds of going to Trinity as someone from Blackrock College because they both do a Leaving Cert. People born into circumstances have different advantages. Those who deny that are both stupid and idiots.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    there is nothing about being white, catholic or rural that makes it easier to learn irish.

    So why are 99.999% of Primary teachers white and Irish born? It is arguably the most segregated profession in the state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,060 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    markodaly wrote: »
    So why are 99.999% of Primary teachers white and Irish born? It is arguably the most segregated profession in the state.


    because most of the populate are white and irish. Maybe not 99% but these things take time to catch up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,880 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Nobody said that. All countries have certain restrictions on government professions - bring skilled at official languages is generally one of them. There are often other barriers as well.

    And I'd argue they're being limiting as well unless there is a practical need for the skills.
    The general point that if a school is 90% Irish the school staff should no more than 90% Irish is nonsensical. It shouldn’t matter, of course and as the children of migrants go through the system they can apply.

    In particular in cases (like now) of strong demographic changes there isn’t really any way for the system to keep up. A school teacher is generally employed for life. A 60 year old teacher is statistically likely to be white and Irish and Catholic because when she was applying the country was 95% + Irish Catholic white. Female because of tradition.
    Fair enough - none of this I've debated, but again: what are the beenfits of tradition as opposed to fresh or moderised ideas?
    If you want the teaching population to represent the demographics of students now then most all future hires would be minorities (as the number of new hires is a fraction of the total employed at any one time).

    Alternatively just wait a few generations.

    Again, not something I've debated.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,682 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Compulsory Irish was brought in in 1934 in an effort to supplant English as the primary language.
    It never happened, yet we still persist with this nonsense of compulsory Irish.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/analysis-compulsory-irish-review-shines-light-on-sacred-cow-of-education-1.3646761

    The outcome today in 2018 is a highly segregated and dare I say it anti-foreign national policy of making it harder for non Irish born to become primary school teachers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    This will all change in time because so many non Irish parents here are of course having children here, a lot of whom can speak their parents' native language, plus English, and will also learn Irish in school. When they leave school they might, like many Irish people, forget how to speak Irish because its not used in their daily lives. But there will come a day soon when Africans and Poles will speak perfect Irish and will become teachers. Then the children will speak perfect Irish with African or Polish accents! :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,060 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    markodaly wrote: »
    Compulsory Irish was brought in in 1934 in an effort to supplant English as the primary language.
    It never happened, yet we still persist with this nonsense of compulsory Irish.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/analysis-compulsory-irish-review-shines-light-on-sacred-cow-of-education-1.3646761

    The outcome today in 2018 is a highly segregated and dare I say it anti-foreign national policy of making it harder for non Irish born to become primary school teachers.


    Irish is the first language of the state. Maybe one day we might start to actually teach it properly and we end up with a bilingual generation like the welsh.


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