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BusConnects - Cyclist Support Vital

  • 25-09-2018 10:20am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭


    There is a lot of misinformation being put forth by the NBRU and political parties regarding Bus Connects, saying buses are being "culled" or "lost" when they're actually being re-numbered and most people will be able to get further quicker. They'll also benefit from a 90 minute fare that can also be used on Luas and Train services.

    What has this to do with cycling? The Bus Connects infrastructure plan includes 200km of high quality segregated cycle lanes running adjacent to the new bus lanes - not in, but beside and segregated from.

    If the network re-design fails to get support the infrastructure plan is dead, so no 200km of segregated cycle lanes. If you want them you need to complete the survey
    https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign/
    and show your support for the plan (you can also raise issues with details of it, specific routes etc) but support for the core ideas of the plan - Spines and Orbital routes is key to getting this across the line and getting all those segregated cycle lanes.

    Closing date for this is Friday.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    This isn't straight good for us. The plan is a sketch right now but some of their cycle lanes may be parallel but 200m away in a side street yielding every 50m.

    The devil is hugely in the detail here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Yep, I'd also be giving guarded support. Anything that enhances public transport for the city is a good thing, and I do believe bus connect does that. However, I'm less convinced from what I've seen of the cycling specific details tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    ED E wrote: »
    This isn't straight good for us. The plan is a sketch right now but some of their cycle lanes may be parallel but 200m away in a side street yielding every 50m.

    The devil is hugely in the detail here.

    Yes, and the detail will be discussed as part of the public consultation on infrastructure starting next month.

    However, there won't be anything to discuss if the Network re-design doesn't get enough support.

    Also, most of us on here are experienced cyclists, segregated cycle lanes are much more essential for increasing the numbers cycling, particularly children and those currently fearful of cycling in non-segregated traffic.

    So give guarded support but give support otherwise it will be dead in the water.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Whats needed is segregated bus lanes, we won't get that though. Take a bus in at rush hour down rathmines road and see all the vans and taxis blocking the bus lane.

    Bus connects can't work without enforcement first. Gardai don't want that job (new Comm said so) and DSPS/DCC have a MASSIVE conflict of interest. Maybe I'm a cynic but the whole thing is transport theatre IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Well, the actual draft plans for Rathmines have only one traffic lane instead of the two now. But sure leave the whole thing to the Nimbys and let it not even get off the ground cause that will be so much more beneficial.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    Why would the NBRU and political parites want to block a move that increases bus services?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    Why would the NBRU and political parites want to block a move that increases bus services?



    to keep Parity?


  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭mirrormatrix


    Personally, I'm happier on the road than in a dedicated cycle lane. But I do support BusConnects in general.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Well, the actual draft plans for Rathmines have only one traffic lane instead of the two now. But sure leave the whole thing to the Nimbys and let it not even get off the ground cause that will be so much more beneficial.
    Actually I'd already done the survey supporting the bus elements, but way to get support!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Actually I'd already done the survey supporting the bus elements, but way to get support!

    You're probably right, I do however think this is a once in a generation opportunity to massively increase cycling infrastructure for those who will not consider it given the current provision.

    I think on it's own, Bus Connects will massively improve public transport in the City and it also provides as an ancillary a huge increase in cycling infrastructure. I am probably too emotionally involved in it and feel that it is at serious risk of failure due to ambivalence on the part of those likely to benefit from it.

    Public consultation tends to bring out opponents more than supporters and if the opponents win then we'll just continue with piecemeal cycling infrastructure.

    Opposing Bus Connects or not voicing support for it because of a couple of draft routes doesn't make sense to me.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,978 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Why would the NBRU and political parites want to block a move that increases bus services?
    The NBRU think it's a trojan horse to privatise the buses.
    The political parties are playing local games. They're looking at this at a micro rather than macro level. As a 'this means the 13 bus will disappear' issue rather than one of necessary changes to improve the service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    It's nonsensical that cycling infrastructure would be tied to agreeing a business strategy for Dublin Bus. What higher power decreed that these two completely separate modes of transport should be intertwined, and isn't it more than likely that the cycling infrastructure will be built regardless of how Dublin Bus uses it's resources?


  • Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    The NBRU think it's a trojan horse to privatise the buses.


    I think so too and I'm opposed to that.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Yep, I'd also be giving guarded support. Anything that enhances public transport for the city is a good thing, and I do believe bus connect does that. However, I'm less convinced from what I've seen of the cycling specific details tbh.

    Ditto. The bus element looks good, but I'm not gone on the cycling aspect, nor the plans in some parts to divert private cars through residential areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭Fian


    https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/on-your-bike/
    Cycling facilities
    The implementation of “next generation” bus corridors as part of BusConnects doesn’t just address the bus requirements along those routes – it also allows the creation of a “next generation” network of cycling facilities.

    The major bus corridors also represent the major cycling arteries for the city. The reconstruction of these roads to provide the essential bus lanes that are needed for BusConnects also provides the opportunity to similarly transform the cycling infrastructure.

    On each of the Core Bus Network corridors, we will provide high quality cycling facilities, segregated from the bus lanes and general traffic lanes as far as is practicable. When implemented, this will mean that inexperienced cyclists, as well experienced cyclists, will be able to use these routes safely.

    This benefits the bus system as well. It avoids cyclists sharing bus lanes with buses, where the bus speed can be limited to the speed of the slowest cyclist in the lane, and removes many of the conflicts that bus drivers have to deal with.

    Accordingly, the implementation of BusConnects will also see the delivery of a network of key cycle routes, which form the foundation of the overall cycle network that has been planned for the Greater Dublin Area.

    I responded to teh survey, and in the "any other comments" piece I asked that the cycling infrastructure not yield if the main route would have right of way, pointed out that if it is not fit for purpose cyclists will not use it and will use the bus lanes instead and that a tick teh box cycle lane that is not fit for purpose is a complete waste of public resources.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    Personally, I'm happier on the road than in a dedicated cycle lane. But I do support BusConnects in general.

    This is why people hate cyclists


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,831 ✭✭✭Annie get your Run


    Personally, I'm happier on the road than in a dedicated cycle lane. But I do support BusConnects in general.


    Me too, the cycle lanes we have are mostly not fit for (my) purpose nor many other commuters; yielding to motor traffic at junctions, built beside footpaths & walked on by pedestrians, badly maintained, full of potholes and slippery manhole covers etc etc etc etc etc.

    I also support Bus Connects and have filled in the survey and commented on my concerns that the cycle infrastructure they will build will be suitable for all levels of cycling, otherwise many will continue to use the roads, as is their right.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Fian wrote: »
    I responded to teh survey, and in the "any other comments" piece I asked that the cycling infrastructure not yield if the main route would have right of way, pointed out that if it is not fit for purpose cyclists will not use it and will use the bus lanes instead and that a tick teh box cycle lane that is not fit for purpose is a complete waste of public resources.

    This is the biggest area of concern. While they're not explicit, it sounds like they may be considering changing the law to bar cyclists from bus lanes. We've tried mandatory use before and it took years of lobbying to get rid of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,831 ✭✭✭Annie get your Run


    This is the biggest area of concern. While they're not explicit, it sounds like they may be considering changing the law to bar cyclists from bus lanes. We've tried mandatory use before and it took years of lobbying to get rid of it.


    I wonder will it be all bus lanes or just the connect ones? Seems like they will allow taxis to use them though..


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    This is the biggest area of concern. While they're not explicit, it sounds like they may be considering changing the law to bar cyclists from bus lanes. We've tried mandatory use before and it took years of lobbying to get rid of it.

    Not sure where you're getting that view from, can you point to anything that leads you to that opinion?

    Legislation could not be introduced for Bus Connects only bus lanes, unless there was a totally new designation for them which is highly unlikely.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,831 ✭✭✭Annie get your Run


    Not sure where you're getting that view from, can you point to anything that leads you to that opinion?

    Legislation could not be introduced for Bus Connects only bus lanes, unless there was a totally new designation for them which is highly unlikely.


    They confirmed this on twitter a while back, whether that's a hope or something definite is unclear but I definitely read a tweet from @busconnects stating cyclists wouldn't be allowed and taxi's would.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    I wonder will it be all bus lanes or just the connect ones? Seems like they will allow taxis to use them though..

    Word on the street is the NTA want taxis out of bus lanes but are picking their battles as such a move would lead to massive disruptive protests.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Not sure where you're getting that view from, can you point to anything that leads you to that opinion?

    Legislation could not be introduced for Bus Connects only bus lanes, unless there was a totally new designation for them which is highly unlikely.

    The piece quoted by Fian above:
    This benefits the bus system as well. It avoids cyclists sharing bus lanes with buses, where the bus speed can be limited to the speed of the slowest cyclist in the lane, and removes many of the conflicts that bus drivers have to deal with

    As I said, they're not explicit, but it sounds like they want to force cyclists out of the bus lanes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    It's nonsensical that cycling infrastructure would be tied to agreeing a business strategy for Dublin Bus. What higher power decreed that these two completely separate modes of transport should be intertwined, and isn't it more than likely that the cycling infrastructure will be built regardless of how Dublin Bus uses it's resources?

    It's not a business strategy for Dublin Bus. It's about more efficient use of the buses we have and the 27% increase in bus services.

    It makes sense when you're putting in next generation bus lanes that you use the opportunity to, at the same time, put in high quality segregated cycle lanes.

    People were giving out when Luas cross-city was brought in that the impact on bus services and cycling wasn't considered, now you're giving out that they are!


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    It's nonsensical that cycling infrastructure would be tied to agreeing a business strategy for Dublin Bus. What higher power decreed that these two completely separate modes of transport should be intertwined, and isn't it more than likely that the cycling infrastructure will be built regardless of how Dublin Bus uses it's resources?

    It isn't just about how Dublin Bus uses its resources. The changes to routes proposed in this plan depend on road layouts being changed throughout the city to support uninterrupted bus lanes on the major routes. Those changes to road layout enable the development of cycling infrastructure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    As I said, they're not explicit, but it sounds like they want to force cyclists out of the bus lanes.

    Why should cyclists get to slow down other methods of transport when they have their own dedicated lane? I cycle to work & have to use some fairly bad cycle paths, therefore use a MTB rather than road bike, each method of transport have their drawbacks, but it seems cyclists have a sense of entitlement that no other demographic have.

    Where is the incentive for the government to invest heavily in cycling infrastructure when you have people saying I prefer the road anyway


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Why should cyclists get to slow down other methods of transport when they have their own dedicated lane? I cycle to work & have to use some fairly bad cycle paths, therefore use a MTB rather than road bike, each method of transport have their drawbacks, but it seems cyclists have a sense of entitlement that no other demographic have.

    Where is the incentive for the government to invest heavily in cycling infrastructure when you have people saying I prefer the road anyway

    Because cyclists are helping to solve the problem. Force them to use crap infra and they drive. That makes it worse for everyone.

    Can't use cycle lanes if they're full of cars.
    http://freethecyclelanes.vool.ie/


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Why should cyclists get to slow down other methods of transport when they have their own dedicated lane? I cycle to work & have to use some fairly bad cycle paths, therefore use a MTB rather than road bike, each method of transport have their drawbacks, but it seems cyclists have a sense of entitlement that no other demographic have.

    Where is the incentive for the government to invest heavily in cycling infrastructure when you have people saying I prefer the road anyway

    If everyone used the bad cycle tracks, why would anyone bother to build good ones?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Why should cyclists get to slow down other methods of transport when they have their own dedicated lane? I cycle to work & have to use some fairly bad cycle paths, therefore use a MTB rather than road bike, each method of transport have their drawbacks, but it seems cyclists have a sense of entitlement that no other demographic have.

    I don't know about you Mick, but if I drive or take the bus to work, it isn't the cyclists who're slowing traffic down.

    It's kind of bizarre that you admit to needing to use a bike designed for riding off-road in order to use cycle lanes and then say anyone not prepared to do this has a "sense of entitlement".


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  • Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    It's not a business strategy for Dublin Bus. It's about more efficient use of the buses we have and the 27% increase in bus services.

    It makes sense when you're putting in next generation bus lanes that you use the opportunity to, at the same time, put in high quality segregated cycle lanes.

    People were giving out when Luas cross-city was brought in that the impact on bus services and cycling wasn't considered, now you're giving out that they are!


    No, I know what it's about. It's about tying positive changes in city infrastructure (which would be logical changes anyway) to a restructuring of bus services which has major flaws. There is no reason why that cycling infrastructure wouldn't be built independently of BusConnects.

    I'd compare this move to something like the proposed changes to the Fairview road system, which involved using the need for a cycling lane to push for otherwise unpopular decisions.

    Why cyclists should feel a moral obligation to support the privatisation of bus routes is beyond me.


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