Free public transport

IAmTheReign wrote: »

I can't find numbers of total journeys put according to this https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/free-travel-for-nearly-1m-people-cost-77m-in-2017-469806.html 1.2 million people had access to public transport for free in 2017 and only 21% of travel pass holders rarely or never used them, meaning nearly 1 million people use them somewhat regularly. Suggesting that 1 million users of public transport are not relevant to the discussion is ridiculous.

The topic of the thread is public transport and whether or not is should be free at the point of use. It is not about increasing speed or capacity. Public transport is for everyone, not just people who use it to get in and out work. That was the entire point of my post.

Cutting the cost will, I think, do little to improve usage by those with cars and a choice.

If working commuters want to use public transport exclusively then they have to take care to restrict their choice of work and home. Isn't that the primary reason for low takeup?

To get to next week's workplace will require walking 1 hour 20 min+, leaving the house at 6 am. 31 quid per day in ticket fare, and a dice roll to determine whether I get back before 9:30pm. This is without leaving the county, between 2 towns well serviced by public transport.
Even in Dublin, public transport commuting from the west M50 to the north M50 is a horrible tiring slog, despite all the buses serving the airport.

There is so little flexibility and co-ordination between transport providers that would give commuters options.

A tap-on tap-off mobile application that counts the distance traveled and apportioned payment to the associated providers would be preferable to free travel as an investment.
Especially if it could include warnings of disruptions to stops and routes that leave us cursing and stuck for hours at a half-way point.

Disruption could be something as small as the ticket office being closed at a rail station, and the automated machine being out of change. Therefore everyone this bank holiday weekend needs to have exact change to leave the station, the machine won't even allow a choice to overpay.

bingbong500 wrote: »

Parents take their children to drs when they have to go, fee or no fee.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/how-are-gps-coping-with-free-care-for-under-6s-1.2606707

Out-of-hours GP services are bearing the brunt of increased attendances since the introduction of the free GP visit card for children aged under six

While the ICGP supports the free care and sees it as beneficial for patients, “it does have a major influence on capacity”, he says. For some practices, it is a major cause of them being “really stretched”.

People with medical cards attend GPs, on average, six times a year, compared with a private patient average of twice a year. Now that GP visits are free for children under six, they are likely to come more often, he agrees, but that doesn’t mean they are unnecessary visits.

It could be “appropriate” attendance, whereas before they were “inappropriately” staying away because of financial issues, says Murphy, who is a GP in south Dublin.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/how-are-gps-coping-with-free-care-for-under-6s-1.2606707

I'm not sure that the GPs who are negotiating with the Dept for fees are the best independent source of data on this.

There should be nothing for free .
People don't respect free.
Oaps should pay €1 to use the bus .
To many buses driving around with just bus pass customers on them.
The Irish taxpayer is picking up the bill.
Other users should be charged €2 .
It's not a lot to get them to pay those rates .
As for free medical cards for people that have money???
Don't get me started.
There's a percentage of Irish people out there that want all the services but don't want to pay for same service .

Guys this is not a mystery, same thing happened with the NHS was created, it's been known to those of us in the social policy field for years.


When something newly free comes in there is always a surge until things settle down, it's perfectly normal. Medical cards are being gradually phased in for everyone over time anyway, all parties are signed up to this so it's going to happen. Were the only country in the developed world besides the US without universal healthcare, everyone else manages to do it yet we and the US pretend like it's impossible.


Our system is the worst of all worlds because the people paying for the system are locked out of it due to stupid means tests, whereas everywhere else you don't have all that resentment because everyone is covered like with the NHS or Medicare Canada.






Ashleigh1986 we can't have 1euro for OAPs and Disabled to use the bus because we've tried all that before, in this country it will become 2-5-10-20 then defeat the entire point.
Incidentally schemes like FT, studies indicate, saves as much or more than it spends due to savings in healthcare.


You will be in an EXTREME minority in saying nothing should be free at point of use. If we did it that way it would be a nightmare, certain things are just easier to pay for socially than as individuals.




No buses drive around with "just bus pass customers on them". THat does not happen. Ever. They are 25% of the commuters, no more.


The "medical cards for people who have money" is the way basically every other developed country does it, inc the NHS in the UK. Because it's not free, it's funded through your taxes, that way everyone is covered and you don't have to mess around with huge red tape and means testing leaving people out who need help, it's way more efficient.





You also appear to have this notion in your head that one set of people are PAYING and a totally different set of people are TAKING. Apart from a small class of about 30,000 permanent wasters (who are mostly unemployable anyway and largely delt with now through programs like Gateway) they are all one in the same.


I paid taxes from when I started work at 16 until my mid 20s when I got sick with cancer then pretty extreme depression after it, I was on Disability Allowance, Medical Card and Free Travel included. I paid into the pot then took from the pot, now I'm paying into the pot once again (though with some things still kept as overlap, like FT and the MC, since they're not really taking med cards off anyone now with the new rollout anyway). OAPs paid taxes for 40+ years. 4/5 people on disability allowance aquired their disability while working, most people on jobseekers get a job within 6months.


Also your GP does not get paid more the more times you visit as a medical card paitent, they are paid a flat fee per year to provide the service to you, they get the same no matter if you go up 6 times or 2. People will always go up more when they first get the card because they've been holding back before hand, a well understood phenomenon for those of us who specialize in this area, but easy to manipulate ppeople with if you are a tabloid writer (or radio host...)


Also studies show primary care that's free at point of use saves more long term. Lets say someone is getting a regular check up because they're not turned off by a 65euro fee. They find a bump on their breast, get it checked out it turns out to be a small stage 1 breast cancer tumor. Easily treated with breast sparing surgery and some follow up chemo to kill any lingering cells and away you go. Full treatment may cost the state 8-9000. If that patient is deterred by cost and does not come in until they feel real pain the cancer may have spread to the lymph nodes and be out into the body. It might cost 100,000 to treat that person.




Dont' make the mistake the brits did with the EU cash, measuring just money in v money out, there are synergies with this kind of stuff that's why it's done this way in every developed country.

They have data on the medical card patients.

Are you saying the doctors are making it up? Why wouldn't usage of a service go up when it becomes free?

Zebra3 wrote: »

Interesting piece on free PT in the Times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/free-public-transport-could-it-work-for-dublin-1.3768146?mode=amp

Lot to be said for it.

Free fares is a stupid idea. It results in a wasteful use of the service, and greater wear and tear from the sort who do nothing with their lives, and moreover it means another burden for the PAYE worker, not for the underclass, nor for friends of FG-FF in the cuckoo funds and tax avoiding phone or petrol, neither of whom pay much of any tax. The article is full of charity industry buzzwords. Personally, no interest in supporting the troublemaking element of the Irish underclass / children direct provision migrants being able to roam for free. Many of them have an unlimited sense of entitlement that bears no relation to what they put into this country, which is sweet fa.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Something that doesn't have the weaknesses noted above would be a great start

All stats have a weakness, you can get a stat to back any argument up.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You can openly take cocaine on the Cork - Dublin train without a care in the world (unless a randomer films it).

We can not have free public transport in a country that has such a feckless attitude to public security.

A barrier free Metro is out. Can't happen. It's absolutely laughable that such a notion could be introduced in Dublin.

The public need to understand (and I think they do) that there are trade offs to how we go about our business in this country in relation to public safety. We have no police force worthy of the name, we have a wreckless judiciary (most of the time may as well be non existent) and we have a societal tolerance for petty scumbaggery that is unmatched anywhere else in Europe. It is just not tolerated.

Our choice is to have the type of society outlined and we have to accept the consequences that come with that in terms of what we can't have.

Nobody cares enough to change it.

Payment on Luas is typically over 90% and the same goes for the honestly box water at Dublin airport so to say we can’t have it is wrong.

I agree that security is an issue but I think we are on the way towards transport police or at least a reformed traffic corp.

I am against free public transport as studies have shown it does little to get people out of their cars and instead attracts those who would have previously walked or cycled... using capacity which we don’t have.

What would be a better solution would be to expand the Taxsaver scheme to all leap card transactions, dublinbike membership and tolls like M3 on the way to park +ride as well as parking fees at p+r. This would offer a 40% saving vs driving.

Every morning peak time trains from rural Ireland are full when they get to stations like Carlow and Monasterevin and other rural towns where people have a commute of an hour of more.

Why? An awful lot of the seats are taken up by the sacred cows of Ireland, able bodied free travel pass holders who have the energy to play golf and go hiking at weekends. Many commuters would be too exhausted to do this even if they had the time and money.

People who pay thousands for an annual ticket have to stand for an hour or more while the sacred cows who paid no more than 5 euro to travel (if they booked a seat) have a restful journey. I am sick of my taxes going to prop up this system which only exists to secure the grey vote.

The FTP used to be off peak only for those who passed a means test. A fair system would be half price tickets for those who do not pass the means test. Workers who do long commutes do not do it by choice, if they could afford it they would live closer to work.

Nobody else should travel for free unless they have a disability or are children small enough to fit on a parent's lap. Otherwise they should pay at least half price per journey.