Lessons of History?

Éomer of Rohan · 26-08-2003 9:43pm #1

There has been several discussion over in politics lately, a lot of them interlinked and I would like to see what people say here.

The general gist of what some are saying is that politics is swinging back to the politics of the 19th Century in terms of internal politics (ie before we had the Welfare State), some say that Trade Unions are outmoded and useless, some say that socialist politics have been proven useless by history and should be discarded - so people, I am not adding an opinion just yet - this is just to get you all started off on a good argument based on the history of Ireland and Britain over the last 200 years and the history of trade unions and socialism since the concepts as we know them came about.

Mark · 27-08-2003 1:39am

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan

The general gist of what some are saying is that politics is swinging back to the politics of the 19th Century in terms of internal politics (ie before we had the Welfare State), some say that Trade Unions are outmoded and useless

Right Trade Unions and how they operate aren't exactly my forté but as far as I can tell;

They're nescessary to protect the rights of the basic worker (God that makes me sound like a snob. The 'basic worker'. I mean really, I'll have turned into my Aunt Josie by the time I'm 30), but seeing as they're run by humans and you'll inevitably have greedy bastards, some fall into bully-boy, 'stomp my feet till I get what I want or I'll tell Daddy about you and the Postman' tactics.

To swing back 2 centuries in terms of international policies is a bit unlikely I think. I mean we're not going to invade France just for our own political ends are we? (Well.... most of us.)

I'm of the (admittedly rather apathetic opinion) that we just let society progress. I don't see 200 year old policies returning.
/me smacks Imperialism.

Some say that socialist politics have been proven useless by history and should be discarded

Oh I don't know, the Swedes seem to be fairly content. To say they're useless seems to be bordering on the extreme, a dash of socialism in a societys infrastructure never hurt anyone. Except when it did. But we'll just ignore that.

this is just to get you all started off on a good argument based on the history of Ireland and Britain over the last 200 years and the history of trade unions and socialism since the concepts as we know them came about. [/B]

Hmm I had assumed this was about lessons learned from World history (In which case we'd end up with me lambasting Imperialism furiously, emotional fevor watering my eyes and causing me to clutch people firmly by the jumper neck and screaming at them to get in line and to not Let the Team Down), but what the fig.

I'm not entirely sure what to ARGUE about socialism and trade unions at the mo'. If we were to use the Baldurs Gate 2 system, I'd rate myself as Neutral Good in my opinion about the two. (/me cries at his own nerdiness)

So my verdict: Trade Unions are nescessary, but could use a tad tighter regulations to cut out the Handbags aspect of it.

Socialism can be a fine thing, and I'd like to ideally see it implemented in Health and Social Services. I still have some affection for Capitalism you know, so sue me

The Beer Baron · 28-08-2003 11:20am

There has been several discussion over in politics lately, a lot of them interlinked and I would like to see what people say here.

Yeah well I've gotten the boot for a week- naughty me [lousy smoke-free, flame-free politics.]
I'll try to stay on topic but I've only had one coffee this morning and my mind is mush.

Oh I don't know, the Swedes seem to be fairly content. To say they're useless seems to be bordering on the extreme, a dash of socialism in a societys infrastructure never hurt anyone.

It can be as sugar in the democratic tea as long as it's not abused

Except when it did

heh

Every job I had (well except for American companies i.e. Dell but I'll come back to that) and every organisation I have ever been involved with has taught me a valuable lesson about unions- avoid them like the plague. I have been hounded and hounded to join "d'Yuneyin!" and resisted @ every turn.
The reason? Every union leader I've ever encountered has been loud, brash, arrogant, ignorant and utterly, utterly incompetant. They bicker about small things while ignoring the important things. (i.e such petty ****e as being prepared to call a strike because they need a new Burco boiler in the cantiene- meanwhile the entire premesis was a poorly mismanaged deathtrap with the highest criminal density outside of Mountjoy)

In such matters I would prefer to represent myself. My basic view on unions is this petty little story in macrocosm- I'm sure I could start an entire thread on "union stories" but this is history not politics-...

So yeah- considering this, most people are SSOOOOOO sick of unions now that they'd rather not join them. Some companies don't have unions at all. The aforementioned Dell, and many other American companies seem to prefer the "incentives and backpatting" model. I think union is still a dirty word there- I dunno do they still think of Teamsters, Jimmy Hoffa and the Red Menace- probably...

Bringing this into a historical context again; Back in the days of Conolly and Larkin they were a way for the working man to fight back and, in time, get equal rights fair play and a hard boiled egg.

But is the union obsolete?
I'm not so sure.

It seems nobody really has a "job" these days.
Now they have a career and companies expect complete loyalty.
Mobiles are partly to blame for this I reckon but now, technically, work never seems to finish. The company can call you on the weekend- we really need you today, etc, etc. It can tell you you have a weekend off only to change its mind in order to meet its quota. And in a climate, not just here, but everywhere- one in which jobs are scarce and competition is fierce and any money you can earn is welcome- well, you can hardly say- well no, today is my day off. You follow?

Governments certainly aren't going to care. They're hardly going to clamp down and fight for the individual worker versus the powerful corporation (the one that's providing jobs- crappy as they may be- and investing in a country that needs all it can get)

From an Irish perspective the union won't disappear forever because, A, it's part of our history and heritige as Socialism permeates the Irish way of life, we have it in the blood as it were. B, some of our big "super-unions" in this can still grind this country to a halt. Such leverage is hard to ignore to those in the Dáil.

From a global perspective? Well, many third world countries are only beginning to go through their industrial revolution, with both it's revolutionary aspects and its industrialist aspects. (If Dickins were alive today no doubt he'd be writing about Lu Wong in the Nike factory) No doubt they'll learn the hard way and go through what every modern country has already endured.

Perhaps, as a nation that has gone through the process only recently ourselves, we should stop being so damn greedy and realise why they were created in the 1st place.

(Apologies once again if a lot of this is OT)

Éomer of Rohan · 28-08-2003 11:22pm

No apologies Beer, that is what I am getting at.

And don't worry - EVERYONE gets banned from politics at least once lol - I did - as I recall it was for getting hot and bothered at Corinthian, who I have since learned to work well with in debate.

As for the Unions being corrupt ya di ya, yes I agree but the important point to note about that is that those people who are presently stewards and union leaders are careerists and the bed-buddies of the very big business that Unions are supposed to fight.

Take the FBU and Andy Gilchrist for example. I was utterly astounded by one paper (the Times I think) calling Gilchrist a 'fire-brand left wing union leader' and was quite appalled too. He isn't - he's as smarmy and corrupt as they come - nothing on the real leaders we had during the mining strike - and this is where history and politics interlink.

The UK has just emerged from the biggest set-back of the working class in the entire history of the concept. The miners in the 70's and 80's brought down the Unions; set back the confidence of the worker to struggle - and so the Conservatives have got away with privatisation and moving towards the laissez faire ideal, and under a veil, so have the New Labour government. Then there was the final collapse of something that history, however erroneously, named the first worker's state - the Soviet Union - this was a blow to those who held left wing politics in high regard, whether or not they agreed with many of the politics of the USSR; because so long as it existed, there was always the chance that it would come good in the end.

Anyway, the point is that over the last few years we have seen workers movements; the anti-sectarian solidarity marches with the postal workers in Northern Ireland, the anti-War movement, the solidarity shown the FBU (believe me, the amount of money people stopped to give the lads was amazing - and they gave the same to the Socialist Party who, though I say it myself, were unstinting in their efforts on behalf of the FBU as evidenced by the £500 voted to us in the general meeting of the NI FBU Executive).

So on that note, I would say that over the last say twenty years the Unions have been precisely as you have described them; corrupt and useless - but I believe that it is a historical imperative driving us back into working class struggle - in Britain the Welfare State gave the state a rest from having to fight socialism on it's own doorstep, the same in Germany and France. Across Europe however, workers are moving in defence of the benefits they have held in the past; Marseille actually came to a standstill for a day this year - and this is a city with 3 million workers - a greater population than NI. The Unions are going to be the organisations that drive people back into the class struggle - and a class struggle it is in my opinion. Throughout our history, we have seen the Unions defend our rights as workers, no? Do you not think that after we clear out the careerists and the conformity left over from the resounding defeat they suffered that they are moving towards rebuilding confidence?

Vader · 31-08-2003 10:24pm

Trade Unions nowadays do seem to be doing more harm than good-- constantly striking over little things and looking for pay rises they dont deserve eg teachers and CIE.
But I am sure that if we were to do away with unions buisness' would go right back to exploiting the worker.

Socialism is something i am sure there will always be a need for,
companies like ESB and CIE not out to make a profit but provide employment and a cheap high quality service. Essential in Ireland cause with the exception of the last decade we've always had unemployment problems.

The Beer Baron · 01-09-2003 5:43pm

constantly striking over little things and looking for pay rises they dont deserve eg teachers and CIE.

I'd only give them higher wages if our trains were punctual and our children were smarter.

Vader · 01-09-2003 6:40pm

If I get high JC and LC results it doesnt neccissarily mean I have good teachers. I might have a good working enviroment, take grinds or be born gifted:D (more like special)

Lessons of History?

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