Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Thread Closed  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
24-09-2003, 15:05   #16
klaz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 9,474
Quote:
Did they though? Once in the war the US were equally committed to both Germany AND Japan.
Only because Hitler declared war, and also declared that the U-Boats would hunt down all allied shipping. Initially the US only aided the European theatre through convoys & escorts.
klaz is offline  
Advertisement
24-09-2003, 16:53   #17
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 673
ah-rite! ah-rite!

It seems no matter what I say you're gonna disagree- which is fine because it's carrying this thread along nicely.

I'm not energetic to pursue an argument I've very little faith in.
Or did I ever have one? Mild trolling to a degree, akin to running through someone's house and opening all the doors.

At any rate, I find it best for all concerned if someone can teach me something, or show me a new way of looking at things rather than have me talking thru my hole all the time.
The Beer Baron is offline  
24-09-2003, 17:15   #18
klaz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 9,474
Quote:
It seems no matter what I say you're gonna disagree- which is fine because it's carrying this thread along nicely
lol... probably. Actually i do agree with you in regards to certain aspects...

Quote:
Of course not everyone in the US thought facism was particularly bad.
I was tempted to agree for the sake of it, but i actually do agree with this comment. The US has alway been proud of their alleged freedom of speech/attitudes, and more so during the first 50 years of the 1900's. As such, there were many people both high and low that agreed with Hitler's ideas, and were sympathetic towards germany in regards to the treaty of Versailles...

Quote:
At any rate, I find it best for all concerned if someone can teach me something, or show me a new way of looking at things rather than have me talking thru my hole all the time.
I know the feeling...

Thing is, we're guessing here. We all know what really happened. At the end of the day, any of could have been right if things had happened differently..
klaz is offline  
24-09-2003, 17:15   #19
jmcc
Hackwatch
 
jmcc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 4,278
Re: Could the Allies have taken on the Axis,without Russia

Quote:
Originally posted by magick
Lets say Germany, not wanting to fight off a 2 front war, decides to hold off the invasion of the USSR,until its finished off with fight with Britian and the USA, do you think without Russias help they could pull it off ? If so what strategy do you think they would employ?
Read Harris' "Fatherland" to see what would have happened. Basically it would have been a Cold War but with the Reich rather than USSR.

The big problem for Hitler was the division of resources. The problem for the Allies was a foothold in Europe. The UK provided that base and without it, it would have been a waiting game as the Reich overextended itself in the same way as the Roman Empire and others before it. There are also fascinating possibilites of how German jet and rocket technology could have progressed to make it a very serious opponent capable of delivering some nasty payloads across the Atlantic. Remember that the Reich had nerve agents but they were not used for fear that the Allies had more effective ones.

You would see proxy battles with tinpot dictatorships and civil wars just the same way as the Cold War between the West and the Communist USSR/China played out. But a very interesting problem exists in Asia - without the distraction of a European war, what would happen with the Japanese expansion in the Pacific? And without a USSR, would China have gone communist?

Regards...jmcc
jmcc is offline  
24-09-2003, 17:31   #20
GreenHell
Registered User
 
GreenHell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 2,587
Send a message via ICQ to GreenHell
Heres my five cents, If Hitler hadn't invaded Russia, then you most assume that Hitler actually listened to his generals. Therefore you would have had his best generals the likes of Rommel and so forth fighting a one front war in france, which from their prior invasion would have given them superior knowledge of the battle field, this would mean that there would have been more than likely a stalemate in france if not allied defeat.

The problem I see with this question is that are so many factors that could have been different if Germany was not at war with Russia, defeating the british in norh africa which could have been done if the Germans had the logistics to support a war there. This would have eventually lead to another supply of oil to keep their war machine going. Then they would have had an airforce to challenge in some way the invasion on D-day.

And about D-day if Hitler listened to his generals, it would have been a massive allied rout on the beachs, taking massive resources to move inland, probably straight into an awaiting panzer charge, which at point in the war were bloody huge machines.
GreenHell is offline  
Advertisement
24-09-2003, 20:36   #21
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 673
Quote:
Read Harris' "Fatherland" to see what would have happened. Basically it would have been a Cold War but with the Reich rather than USSR.
I haven't read it- I seen the movie tho. (duuuh!)
It's in my friend's flat so I might pick it up and read it at somepoint.
Another simular book I wanted to read was Phillip K Dick's "The Man in the High Castle".
The Beer Baron is offline  
25-09-2003, 22:34   #22
Victor
Registered User
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 72,936
With Germany taking Britain (and Ireland) there would have been no stagin point for D-Day. With Britain out of the picture, Spain could take Gibraltar (no fear of retibution), leading to the loss of Malta (no supply of aircraft) and the securing of North-South Italian and German line in the Med. Soon Egypt would have fallen. Without Gibraltar, any anti-Axis invasion of north Africa would have been difficult.

Then you have the scenarios of (a) Axis -v- headless British Empire or (b) Axis -v- Russia in race for Persian Gulf oil.
Victor is offline  
25-09-2003, 23:20   #23
Capt'n Midnight
00:00
 
Capt'n Midnight's Avatar
Convair B36 "Aluminium Overcast"
They were big planes - designed to fly across the atlantic to bomb Europe.. Later versions have four jet engines in addition to the original six piston engines there was a tunnel in the wings so the engines could be worked on in-flight .. ie. the US was contemplating loosing the UK
- but it would have been extremely difficult to dislodge Germans from UK - D-Day was over a short range and if the germans could have got raw materials from Russia.... Remember apart from Oil the EU is nearly self sufficient.

BTW:
offered a choice of any Allied plane to fly, the Normandie-Niemen group selected the Yak3 and scored the last 99 of their 273 victories in the war (Free French based in Russia and so could choose imports or locally produced planes)
Capt'n Midnight is offline  
22-04-2020, 16:21   #24
BloodyBill
Registered User
 
BloodyBill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoSmith View Post
I took "allies" to include the US. I don't think britain had a chance on their own.
The fact is the UK probably could never have been invaded by Germany. The Royal Navy would have sunk the landing craft even if Germany achieved air superiority which its doubtful they could ever have achieved. The UK was already out producing Germany by 1940 in planes,ships and even tanks
BloodyBill is offline  
Advertisement
22-04-2020, 19:21   #25
klaz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 9,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyBill View Post
The fact is the UK probably could never have been invaded by Germany. The Royal Navy would have sunk the landing craft even if Germany achieved air superiority which its doubtful they could ever have achieved. The UK was already out producing Germany by 1940 in planes,ships and even tanks
Well, that's rather simplistic. At the fall of France, Germany was only at war with a few Allied nations, with Britain being the main force. A rather limited force. Without the entry of the US (militarily) or Germany's invasion of Russia, Germany would have had time to consolidate the resources available in Europe, along with retooling the manufacturing centers across Europe towards war goals. Oh, and British tanks were death traps until the later stages of the war.. in 1940 they had very little practical experience in creating tanks, and they were no match for the German designs.

At the start of the "Battle for Britain", the British were losing the air war. They didn't have the pilots or the planes to gain air superiority. The Germans were bombing British airbases, and cratering their runways. It was only Hitlers insistence that they start bombing cities (shifting the attention away from the airfields) that allowed the British time to restock their forces. In addition the higher attrition rate for bombers since most British cities needing to bombed were further than the fighters could travel, was a drain on the Luftwaffe. Had they continued their focus on the airfields and the navy, their losses would have been far less.

The Luftwaffe were also waiting on a number of new bomber models aimed at taking out shipping. The Royal navy was incredibly vulnerable to aircraft since they still need to defend the coast against invasion.. and they lacked air superiority. Had Germany had time to retool Frances factories for aircraft and submarine production, they would have been able to knock large holes in the Royal Navy, which would have been difficult to replace.

Lastly, the US was a reluctant ally. Roosevelt had very little actual political support to help the British, and had Germany not DOW with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, it's very unlikely the US would have entered the European war... and also needing to transfer war materials away from lend lease, and aim it at the pacific instead.

The fact is that Britain could have been invaded and conquered by Germany.. if Hitler had really wanted it. He didn't though. He remained hopeful that they would come to their senses and ally with him. Instead he allowed himself to become distracted by Russia and the US. If he had, instead, aimed the whole of his attention on Britain, they would have managed it. Easily? No, but it was very doable.
klaz is offline  
Thanks from:
23-04-2020, 02:25   #26
Peregrinus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 19,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by magick View Post
Lets say Germany, not wanting to fight off a 2 front war, decides to hold off the invasion of the USSR,until its finished off with fight with Britian and the USA, do you think without Russias help they could pull it off ? If so what strategy do you think they would employ?
As already pointed out, when Germany invaded the USSR they hadn't even started their war with the US, never mind finished it.

Imagine an alternative history in which Hitler does not invade the USSR in June 1941, but the attack on Pearl Harbor occurs in December 1941 and Hitler declares war on the US. How does the US react?

Even in the real events, it wasn't a given that the US would commit signficant resources to direct combat with Germany, first in North Africa and later in Europe. They could have devoted the great bulk of their military and naval assets to the war with Japan, and possibly given the UK more help in India/Burma/South East Asia, and basically had a stand-off/phoney war/containment approach to Germany in Europe, continuing to support the UK but not committed substantial US forces. Mounting a large land-based campaign in a whole other continent was always going to be a stretch. In the event they did it, but they did it knowing that Germany had a huge proportion of its forced tied up on the Eastern Front. If that had not been the case, the US might not have committed to a direct engagement with German in North Africa/Europe, and the whole history of the war might have unfolded very differently.
Peregrinus is offline  
Thanks from:
23-04-2020, 11:58   #27
Manach
Moderator
 
Manach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,699
Mod Note
As this thread dates from 17 years ago, it is unlikely the OP and other posters are still contributing, hence closing this thread. However, no objection if another poster wishes to open a new thread on a similar premise.
Manach is offline  
(3) thanks from:
Thread Closed

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search