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29-06-2020, 01:57   #76
Peregrinus
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The scandal and prosecutions is good evidence that although there was a streak of barbarism in the Belgian administration, it wasn't shared by European colonial authorities. Clearly they had concern for peoples welfare.
You make an entijrely spurious distinction there. The "Belgian administration" were the "European colonial authorities". The prosecutions happened not because authorities in Belgium had concern for peoples welfare, but because public opinion in Europe couldn't look away from what was happening, and also couldn't tolerate looking at it.
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29-06-2020, 13:40   #77
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You make an entijrely spurious distinction there. The "Belgian administration" were the "European colonial authorities". The prosecutions happened not because authorities in Belgium had concern for peoples welfare, but because public opinion in Europe couldn't look away from what was happening, and also couldn't tolerate looking at it.
European colonial authorities is not the same as the Belgian colonial authorities. The culture of Belgians running things in Kinshasa has nothing to do with equivalents in Nairobi, Lajos or Brazzaville just across the river from Kinshasa. I wasn't sloppy in my language so you should not be either. What happened in the Congo was not representative of colonial Africa. If it was there would have been far less outrage. The outrage at what happened demolishes the argument that Europe of the era had no compassion for Africans.
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29-06-2020, 14:18   #78
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European colonial authorities is not the same as the Belgian colonial authorities. The culture of Belgians running things in Kinshasa has nothing to do with equivalents in Nairobi, Lajos or Brazzaville just across the river from Kinshasa. I wasn't sloppy in my language so you should not be either. What happened in the Congo was not representative of colonial Africa. If it was there would have been far less outrage. The outrage at what happened demolishes the argument that Europe of the era had no compassion for Africans.
The British in Nairobi who less than 40 years after the end of CFS put 1 million + people into concentration camps, raped and murdered untold numbers, invented special pliars to crush peoples testies as part of a mass torture programme, and then tried to destory or hide all the documentary evidence that this was widespread, systemic, and sanctioned until forced to release the papers 9 years ago by the living survivors and their families?
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30-06-2020, 01:46   #79
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European colonial authorities is not the same as the Belgian colonial authorities. The culture of Belgians running things in Kinshasa has nothing to do with equivalents in Nairobi, Lajos or Brazzaville just across the river from Kinshasa. I wasn't sloppy in my language so you should not be either. What happened in the Congo was not representative of colonial Africa. If it was there would have been far less outrage. The outrage at what happened demolishes the argument that Europe of the era had no compassion for Africans.
The Belgians are European, YF. Belgian colonial authorities are European colonial authorities. And the notion that "culture of Belgians running things in Kinshasa has nothing to do with equivalents in Nairobi, Lagos or Brazzaville" is to silly to require refutation. The Congo may have been the worst example of colonialism - let's assume it was - but, even so, the worst example of any phenomenon is not something wholly separate and distinct from the phenomenon as a whole. Colonialism is brutal, it is exploitative, it is oppressive, it is destructive. And if the best defence we can make of colonialism as exemplified in Nairobi or Lagos or Brazzaville is "not quite so bad as Kinshasa", well, that's a pretty feeble defence.

The outrage at what happened wasn't based on any "compassion for Africans"; if the European powers felt any compassion for Africans there wouldn't have been colonies in Nairobi or Lagos or Brazzaville. It was based on shame. Maintaining oppression frequently requires the oppressors to be in denial about what they are doing; Casement's reports on the Congo Free State confronted Europeans with the reality of colonialism perpetrated in their name; it was Ghandian tactics before Gandhi, really. This naturally made them angry and ashamed. They channelled that into condemnation of the particular colony of the Congo Free State, because that made it possible to maintain a false distinction between our colonialism (good) and the colonialism of Those People Over There (bad! bad! bad!), and by this mechanism the whole obscene edifice was maintained for another fifty years or so. But the truth is that the excesses of the Congo were just the most extreme manifestation of an inherently oppressive colonial system. You can't maintain a colony without denying the dignity, the autonomy, the equality and ultimately the humanity of the indigenous people you are colonising, and once you deny those things you have opened the way to treating them as less than human.

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30-06-2020, 13:32   #80
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The Belgians are European, YF. Belgian colonial authorities are European colonial authorities. And the notion that "culture of Belgians running things in Kinshasa has nothing to do with equivalents in Nairobi, Lagos or Brazzaville" is to silly to require refutation.
The onus is on you to prove that other colonial projects were within the same realm.

Your comment is appalling ignorant of African history. Take Nigeria for example, Nigeria was colonised because black missionaries wanting to end the slave trade petitioned London to depose the indigenous proslavery king, which they did and replaced, but not with a white governor, they installed a Nigerian ruler deposed some years before. With historical hindsight we can say London didnt have the purest of intentions but they did wish to end slavery and succeeded.

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YThe outrage at what happened wasn't based on any "compassion for Africans"; if the European powers felt any compassion for Africans there wouldn't have been colonies in Nairobi or Lagos or Brazzaville. It was based on shame.
As if shame and compassion are any different in this context.

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You can't maintain a colony without denying the dignity, the autonomy, the equality and ultimately the humanity of the indigenous people you are colonising, and once you deny those things you have opened the way to treating them as less than human.
Yes you can. Look at French colonies today all across the globe. I don't support their existence, but one would be a fool to argue that France is denying equality or the humanity of local people. If I was born in Mayotte I would like to think I would support independence from France but it would be moronic of me to claim my humanity was being denied.

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09-07-2020, 20:20   #81
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I look at colonialism in sub Sahara Africa slightly different.
Why make a big deal about it. Yes terrible things happened. But it seems to me not much happened before outsiders arrived

Think about it, Modern humans have existed in Africa for at least 100,000 years. And Everybody only talks about at most the last 500 years.

History only Mostly started with the Arrival of outsiders to Sub Saharan Africa.

Examples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_Uganda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-co...ry_of_Zimbabwe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nigeria

compare that to Ireland, before the Normans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland
That's because the topic were talking about is covering the colonial period.

Are you suggesting there was no war in in pre-Norman Ireland?
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09-07-2020, 22:21   #82
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That's because the topic were talking about is covering the colonial period.

Are you suggesting there was no war in in pre-Norman Ireland?
I think they were contrasting how old the written record is in Ireland compared with much of tropical Africa and that there is something of a blank slate before that. People complain about the saturation of ancient Ireland with Roman culture and christian religion etc etc, but it did bring us out of the dark ages, or as I should say Dark Ages as the preceding period in Irish history, before AD 400 is considered our Dark Ages, so thus maybe, we should be grateful and same applies to Africa. I am not saying I advocate this view, but it would be very popular.
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09-07-2020, 23:01   #83
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I think they were contrasting how old the written record is in Ireland compared with much of tropical Africa and that there is something of a blank slate before that. People complain about the saturation of ancient Ireland with Roman culture and christian religion etc etc, but it did bring us out of the dark ages, or as I should say Dark Ages as the preceding period in Irish history, before AD 400 is considered our Dark Ages, so thus maybe, we should be grateful and same applies to Africa. I am not saying I advocate this view, but it would be very popular.
The fall of Rome & the rise of the Catholic church brought us into the Dark Ages.

How much vital history, culture & knowledge was lost from Christian destruction of pagan temples, scrolls & practises, how many women were murered for being a witch? Good 2018 book by Catherine Nixey called "The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World" about how how early Christianity played a role in the destruction and suppression of culture.
Ireland more than other country helped to propogate these ideas.

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09-07-2020, 23:36   #84
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The fall of Rome & the rise of the Catholic church brought us into the Dark Ages.

How much vital history, culture & knowledge was lost from Christian destruction of pagan temples, scrolls & practises, how many women were murered for being a witch? Good 2018 book by Catherine Nixey called "The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World" about how how early Christianity played a role in the destruction and suppression of culture.
Ireland more than other country helped to propogate these ideas.
If that book gave you the notions that the mythical Dark ages were brought about by the Catholic church and the church was burning witches duirng that period, I'll give that book a massive body swerve.
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09-07-2020, 23:57   #85
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The fall of Rome & the rise of the Catholic church brought us into the Dark Ages.

How much vital history, culture & knowledge was lost from Christian destruction of pagan temples, scrolls & practises, how many women were murered for being a witch? Good 2018 book by Catherine Nixey called "The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World" about how how early Christianity played a role in the destruction and suppression of culture.
Ireland more than other country helped to propogate these ideas.
You are just not right and certainly not in Ireland. We know that the preceding period was a time of population contraction and turmoil in Ireland, Barry Raftery described the population during this time as ‘the Invisible People’ because of the scarcity of archaeological evidence of their existence. in contrast, connection to the Roman world brough all sorts of innovations, from chickens, water corn mills, oats and rye and all sorts of agri tech. Some time during this period there is a clear evidence of population expansion. The Bronze Age is sometimes called our first Golden Age and the early christian period our second Golden Age.

On the continent this early christian period is called a dark age but mainly because Rome was destroyed by barbarian tribes.
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11-07-2020, 15:55   #86
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Yeah ISIS don't use concentration camps. They just put people to the sword right away. Internment camps and concentration camps violate human rights but they are normally used on the basis that human life is worth of protection or that a state has to at least pretend that human life is worth protecting. Colonialism has a dark history but European colonialism was usually practised by states that shared many values we have today. The same can not be said of ISIS.

The Brits did not cause famines in India. Neither did they cause the Irish Great Hunger. Their policy made it worse but was not the cause.
HAHA. Removing all the eatable food from a coutry doesn't cause famine? That's news to me. It was the same policy that caused the famine that made it worse.
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11-07-2020, 16:12   #87
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You are just not right and certainly not in Ireland. We know that the preceding period was a time of population contraction and turmoil in Ireland, Barry Raftery described the population during this time as ‘the Invisible People’ because of the scarcity of archaeological evidence of their existence. in contrast, connection to the Roman world brough all sorts of innovations, from chickens, water corn mills, oats and rye and all sorts of agri tech. Some time during this period there is a clear evidence of population expansion. The Bronze Age is sometimes called our first Golden Age and the early christian period our second Golden Age.

On the continent this early christian period is called a dark age but mainly because Rome was destroyed by barbarian tribes.
Well by the 1840's these chickens were missing from Ireand.

Yes, the period was great for Ireland & horrible for Europe.That's basically what I said except I didn't use some of that rhetoric.
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11-07-2020, 16:42   #88
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If that book gave you the notions that the mythical Dark ages were brought about by the Catholic church and the church was burning witches duirng that period, I'll give that book a massive body swerve.
That's not what I said at all. But the chuch certainly played a huge part in witch trials., you couldn't have had them without papal appoval.

And up until about the 11th or 12th century the church was against the ideas that people could collude with the devil, have supernatural powers, were witces etc... but there was a shift in Christian doctrine, in which certain Christian theologians eventually began to embrace the idea of witchcraft.
It was in the 1230's that a papal bull by Gregory IX created a new inquisition in southeren France led by Dominicans, their goal was oppress Christian groups considered heretical, like the Cathars.
The first systematic campaign of witch hunts began at Valais in the early 1400's. This ushered in the periods of witch trials. By 1428 the authorities in Leuk issued a formal proclamation of the necessary proceedings for a witch trial. According to this document, the "public talk or slander of three or four neighbours" was enough for arrest and imprisonment, even if the accused was a member of the nobility. The use of torture was reserved for victims "slandered by five, six, or seven or more persons, up to the number of ten, who were qualified to do so and not under suspicion themselves", but also those "accused by three persons who had been tried and sentenced to death for the practice of sorcery".

A bit like how during the Great French Revolution Terror, if you didn't like someone you could accuse someone of anti-Republican activity & their head would role, here they would burn.
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11-07-2020, 17:13   #89
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I worked in various countries in Africa, Burundi, Rwanda, Tanzania, Uganda etc. I was proud to be Irish in so far as the natives never met a white man who talked across to them and not down, as did the English, Germans and the Americans who are very parochial and export their culture to Africa without getting to know the natives.
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