Dear old Grandad, the secretive one.

Rubecula · 20-07-2010 2:26pm #1

My grandad either disowned his family or they disowned him. (Not actually sure which is true).

However he never spoke of it. So when researching the family tree I am sort of stuck with the earliest entry I have found on him.

The National census of 1901 has him listed as a 16 year old lodging in Haddington Road.

However, no matter how hard I try I can not find him mentioned anywhere else, and as for his family. I just don't have a clue who they are.

Does anyone know where I might be able to find older records that may list him and his family?

I have sort of run out of ideas now.

mathepac · 20-07-2010 3:32pm

If you have the 1901 data, have you tried the 1911 census for the same name and +/- a few years for his age?

The search facilities offered on the National Archives for the digitised 1901 / 1911 census records are pretty good and they offer a few tips here.

(Apologies if you've seen those before)

From my own experience as an amateur researcher they are a few things I've learned the hard way :

Some people used the Irish versions of their fore-names or family-names. Depending on the enumerator or recorder, either might have been used. One of my ancestors is recorded as "Michael" on the 1901 record, but in 1911 he and his infant son are recorded as "Micheal" which is not a mis-spelling but the Irish version of the name (with an accent grave over the "e"). His signature on the digitised source document shows the Irish forename including the accent, "Michéal".
My paternal great-grandmother is recorded in various places under her given name "Catherine" but in other places is recorded under three diminutive versions of her given name i.e. "Kate", "Kitty" and "Katie".
- "Elizabeth" and "Eilis" are sprinkled about with abandon as are
- "Pat" and "Patrick"
- "Francis", "Francie" and "Frank",
- "Nora", "Norah" and "Honorah"
- "Ann", "Anne", "Annie", "Nancy" and even "Alice"
- "Margaret", "Peggy" and "Peig", all of whom at various stage turned out to be the same people recorded on different records.

There was poor standardisation of peoples names (or even place names sometimes). Not all records were stored centrally (some that were went up in flames in the Custom House fire) and even fewer are digitised, with most records of major life events held as parish records in churches, so I'm afraid that any meaningful research would mean having someone "on the ground" so to speak.

Riskymove · 20-07-2010 3:36pm

if he has already left his family at 16 and you dont know their names or where they live it will be difficult to use the 1901 to get info

if possible, physical access to the 1891 papers is best bet as you could find him at 6 years old and presumably with his family (unless he was disowned at a very early age:)). You can then get names of others to use in the later census details online

Ponster · 20-07-2010 3:45pm

I'd check him in the 1901 and 1911 census and make sure that the ages match up. if you haven't been able to find any birth records it may be due to looking at the wrong years.

Does he have a distinctive name that makes it easier to search ?

pinkypinky · 20-07-2010 4:40pm

Riskymove wrote: »

if he has already left his family at 16 and you dont know their names or where they live it will be difficult to use the 1901 to get info

if possible, physical access to the 1891 papers is best bet as you could find him at 6 years old and presumably with his family (unless he was disowned at a very early age:)). You can then get names of others to use in the later census details online

Sorry to disappoint but the 1891 census does not survive. What about searching the LDS birth records for the year and name and narrow it down to Dublin South (based on haddington road). 1901 should tell you his county of birth if not Dublin. Best to read the sticky at the top of the forum for some pointers on the LDS.

Rubecula · 20-07-2010 5:23pm

Well the name is pretty distinctive as it is not a normal Irish name.

I have found others of the same name in Offaly in the 1911 and 1901 census.

I just seem to be having trouble connecting the two.

Physical access to the papers is one solution for years prior to 1901.

However I do not live in ireland so I will have to make some arrangements to get there for this.

(I also have to find where the papers I think will help are kept, if they still exist.)

I am going to read through the stickies again and see what I may have missed. Thank you for all your advice.

He does not appear anywhere on the 1911 census, yet I know for a fact he was in Ireland at the time.

Ponster · 20-07-2010 8:46pm

If you posted whatever info you had then we'd be happy to see if we can find him in the 1911 census or try to find some pre-1901 references.

Rubecula · 21-07-2010 12:17pm

That is very kind of you Ponster and I appreciate that a great deal.

Grandfather was:

William Francis Robinette (Often just William Robinette)
in 1901 he was lodging with his Aunt and Uncle Mary Annie and James Midgley in Haddington Road.

There are a number of Robinettes in Offaly and surrounding area, but I have no link between them and my grandfather.

He was born in September 1884 and apparently born in Dublin. (16 at time of census of 1901)

He later enlisted in the Royal Irish Rifles.

He is said to have been a twin.

I do have a bit more information on him but I am not sure I should post it all on an open forum. I think I have mentioned the important bits that I know of.

pinkypinky · 21-07-2010 12:24pm

Family search has very little for this name:
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#surname=robinette&toYear=1885&year=1880&p=recordResults&searchType=close&placeId=1927084&alivePlaceLoc1=Ireland&givenName=william

An older William Robinette dying in Offaly. Two older baptisms of fantastically named people in Kings County (original name for Offaly).

Their older site has some more mentions - mostly all in Offaly again.
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=/eng/search/ancestorsearchresults.asp

It is a very uncommon name so I'd be surprised if he wasn't related.

And their beta site has some other options:
http://fsbeta.familysearch.org/s/search/index/record-search#searchType=records&filtered=false&fed=true&advanced=false&givenName=william&surname=robinette&birthYear=&birthLocation=Ireland&deathYear=&deathLocation=Ireland&page=1&collectionId=1408347

Ponster · 21-07-2010 2:47pm

His medal card is available on Ancestry. Regimental Number: 3/16794

No other info there though...

shanew · 21-07-2010 3:39pm

If he was in the Army at the time of the 1911 census and in barracks, he would usually be recorded using just his initials.

p.s. there's a William Robinette age 23 (incorrectly transcribed as Robinetto) on the 1911 census - see : http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Union_Place/54389/

Shane

mathepac · 21-07-2010 4:12pm

May not be relevant, but in 1901 Census I found :

a family called "Robinet" in Ushers Quay, Dublin
a female with the family-name "Robinett" in Dublin
3 families with the name "Robinett"in Wicklow Town

The 1911 Census shows :

a family called "Robinet" in Merchants Quay, Dublin
a male James "Robinett" on a shipping return from Waterford Harbour
a male aged 23, William "Robinetto", boarding in a house in Union Place, Rathmines / Rathgar, Dublin born City of Dublin

Looking at the digitised source document, William Robinetto is returned as a "car-driver licensed", and it seems to me that the "Robinetto" is a transcription error and the name is actually written as "Robinette". It also looks to me as if the "3" in his age given as "23" may have been altered / overwritten.

Alicat · 22-07-2010 1:07am

I don't know if it would be any help but I found this page from the Irish Ancestral Research Association (in Massachusetts). They print a newsletter called Tiara and one of the issues had a piece in it on the Robinettes of Ireland. It might have something of interest in it! Maybe if you contact them they could send you a copy.

johnny_doyle · 22-07-2010 11:53pm

Ponster wrote: »

His medal card is available on Ancestry. Regimental Number: 3/16794

No other info there though...

his service record is on ancestry. Lists sister Amelia as Next of Kin with an address in Liverpool (30 Oxford St)

but the year of birth is given as 1893.

enlisted in 1914 aged 21..... demobbed in 1919 aged 31???? to an address in Liverpool. (94 IvyLeigh?)

johnny_doyle · 23-07-2010 12:34am

think this is the birth of the sister Amelia

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/c8aa310499662

and the marriage of the parents

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a026ae0928850

and Amelia on the 1901 census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/Charlemont_Street/1306141/

possible death record for the father :

Name: Mathew Robinette
Registration District: Dublin South
Event Type: DEATHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1887
Estimated Birth Year: 1851
Age (at Death): 36
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 101594
Volume Number: 2
Page Number: 532
Digital Folder Number: 4200676
Image Number: 00249
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

Sundew · 23-07-2010 6:09am

Good detective work Johnny.
Does anyone know where was St Peter's COI in Dublin City?

johnny_doyle · 23-07-2010 7:30am

from the LDS pilot database, the mother's death?

Name: Susan Robinett
Registration District: Dublin South
Event Type: DEATHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1901
Estimated Birth Year: 1858
Age (at Death): 43
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 101601
Volume Number: 2
Page Number: 474
Digital Folder Number: 4201705
Image Number: 00448
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

possibly a sister to William?

Name: Susan Robbinet
Registration District: Dublin South
Event Type: DEATHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1900
Estimated Birth Year: 1885
Age (at Death): 15
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 101601
Volume Number: 2
Page Number: 404
Digital Folder Number: 4201705
Image Number: 00200
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

LDS has her birth as Susanna

Name: Susanna Robinett
Registration District: Dublin South
Event Type: BIRTHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1884
Estimated Birth Year:
Age (at Death):
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 101060
Volume Number: 2
Page Number: 636
Digital Folder Number: 4193461
Image Number: 00338
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

shanew · 23-07-2010 8:26am

Sundew wrote: »

Good detective work Johnny.
Does anyone know where was St Peter's COI in Dublin City?

St. Peters Civil and CofI parish covered a section of South City and suburbs out to Rathmines. I think the church was on Aungier St.

Shane

shanew · 23-07-2010 12:29pm

link to some details on the church on wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter%27s_Church,_Aungier_Street,_Dublin

S.

Rubecula · 23-07-2010 3:09pm

Johnny Doyle.

Brilliant stuff my friend. i am dancing in my chair here.

Slight problem though.

I managed to get a copy of my grandparents wedding certificate and it lists his father as being William, (Deceased)

I am now confused. If Amelia was his sister... does there anywhere say her father was William? Or is it all Mathew?

You have done wonders my friend and I really do thank you.

In fact everyone who has posted on here deserves a lot of thanks. Perhaps I can repay you all one day.

shanew · 23-07-2010 3:24pm

what's William's occupation, and when did the marriage take place ?

Shane

Sundew · 23-07-2010 3:31pm

It seems from the death record Johnny Doyle found, Matthew died in 1887
This would leave your Grandfather aprox 3 years old.
Did your Great-Grandmother marry a second time possibly Matthew's brother?

Rubecula · 23-07-2010 4:09pm

That is an idea none of us have considered before. And to be honest, I have not got a clue. Thank you for that.

Shanew, William was a shop asst in 1901 and a car driver in 1911 (apparently) He worked on the Mersey Tunnel after WW1 and when he first married my grandmother.

shanew · 23-07-2010 4:12pm

sorry meant William snr's occupation ?

Shane

Rubecula · 23-07-2010 4:17pm

It is not mentioned. Just says Father's name is William and he is deceased.

johnny_doyle · 23-07-2010 4:40pm

Rubecula wrote: »

Johnny Doyle.

Brilliant stuff my friend. i am dancing in my chair here.

Slight problem though.

I managed to get a copy of my grandparents wedding certificate and it lists his father as being William, (Deceased)

I am now confused. If Amelia was his sister... does there anywhere say her father was William? Or is it all Mathew?

You have done wonders my friend and I really do thank you.

In fact everyone who has posted on here deserves a lot of thanks. Perhaps I can repay you all one day.

William lists Amelia as next of kin which would tie in with both parents being deceased. Sadly no mention of his parents at all in the service record. I will go through it again and see if I missed anything.

Did you click on the link in Amelia's birth record? It shows a copy of the baptism entry in the church register which I think is great to see :

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/reels/d-44-2-1-068.pdf

Mathews marriage entry has his father as William. If Mathew died when William junior was young, would the grandfather have become de facto "father" - this is speculation of course.

Given that they appear to be CoI, it might be worthwhile contacting Mount Jerome to see if they have any Robinette (or variations of the spelling) burials.

The young Susan that died does appear to be the daughter of Mathew and Susan. She's transcribed wrongly on the IrishGenealogy records as Robinelt, born 14th Sept 1884 :

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/c78e4a0449548

and then, here's the baptism of William Francis Robinelt.... to Mathew and Susan, born 2 days after Susan above

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b80e1e0449549

Rubecula · 23-07-2010 5:47pm

Well as Grandfather was a twin and he was born two days later than Susan.... Can a twin be born two days after another????

I am not much in the know for this. If possible then it looks like it could be the link we have been searching for, and yes it is possible that he named his grandfather... or even his uncle as his father on his wedding certificate.

It is by no means certain of course but I am not sure we are going to get much closer.

Until we get more information from this end I think I have to take it that Mathew was his 'blood' father., despite his fatrher's name being William on his wedding certificate. Especially as Amelia is listed as his sister and next of kin when her father was Mathew.

johnny_doyle · 23-07-2010 6:12pm

Rubecula wrote: »

Well as Grandfather was a twin and he was born two days later than Susan.... Can a twin be born two days after another????

I think the answer to the question would be yes but it could be a transcription error. Be interesting to see when the scanned registers appear.

Looked again at William's service record.

Enlisted 29/9/1914.
Home till 5/7/1916.
France 8/7/1916 to 6/6/1917.
Home 7/6/1917 to 9/12/1917.
France 10/12/1917 to 9/12/1918.
(includes a period as a Prisoner of War 24/3/1918 to 2/9/1918)
Home 10/12/1918 to 29/3/1919.
Transferred to Army Reserve 29/3/1919.

5ft 3ins tall, blue eyes, brown hair.

A few blemishes on his record but nothing major.

Some time in 2nd Battn and some in 3rd Battn. A, C and D companies.

Rubecula · 23-07-2010 6:34pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

I think the answer to the question would be yes but it could be a transcription error. Be interesting to see when the scanned registers appear.

Looked again at William's service record.

Enlisted 29/9/1914.
Home till 5/7/1916.
France 8/7/1916 to 6/6/1917.
Home 7/6/1917 to 9/12/1917.
France 10/12/1917 to 9/12/1918.
(includes a period as a Prisoner of War 24/3/1918 to 2/9/1918)
Home 10/12/1918 to 29/3/1919.
Transferred to Army Reserve 29/3/1919.

5ft 3ins tall, blue eyes, brown hair.

A few blemishes on his record but nothing major.

Some time in 2nd Battn and some in 3rd Battn. A, C and D companies.

That is him. 100% that is him.

caroj · 23-07-2010 6:51pm

Great detective work by all! Wish I could locate my 'missing' g grandmother in 1901...

shanew · 23-07-2010 6:56pm

Following on from the baptism records for Susanna and William that johnny_doyle found, Thom's 1884 show the father's Matthew at the address mentioned on the Baptism as follows :

Windsor-terrace (Clanbrassil Bridge, Grand Canal Bank, Parish St. Peter, Wood Quay Ward)

3 Mr. Mathew Robinett (no occupation or other details)

in 1894 the same address is listed as a Mr. James Coughlan.

Shane

Dear old Grandad, the secretive one.

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