Jon Venables Identity revealed

Jesus Wept · 04-05-2011 11:35pm

Didn't we have this story a year or two ago?

Odysseus · 04-05-2011 11:36pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Or may be just because they are evil little bastards?

Maybe or maybe just very sick. Everybody is entitled to the law to protect them and the right to treatment if that is indicated. No matter how outrageous their acts, they should have that right. Yes they should be punished, but that is for the courts to decide not "community justice". However, I believe in people being sick rather than evil, and if sick they need treatment, and if they are a danger to the public detention for as long as required.

Dudess · 04-05-2011 11:41pm

Odysseus, do you believe at all that some folks might be simply bad? This isn't a criticism of you or smartarsery - genuine question. The whole "evil or insane?" debate is an interesting if complex one. I personally don't know what to think - initially I'd assume anyone who's capable of monstrousness is mentally ill, but then again, maybe some people are just horrible and enjoy inflicting suffering and that's too difficult for us to face...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2011 11:46pm

Dudess wrote: »

Odysseus, do you believe at all that some folks might be simply bad? This isn't a criticism of you or smartarsery - genuine question. The whole "evil or insane?" debate is an interesting if complex one. I personally don't know what to think - initially I'd assume anyone who's capable of monstrousness is mentally ill, but then again, maybe some people are just horrible and enjoy inflicting suffering and that's too difficult for us to face...

Not aimed at me, I know, but I an still comment

I think people dismiss criminals as being "evil" far too quickly simply because it's easier. If we say that someone is "sick" then there's the fear that anyone could become sick. But say that they're "evil" and it draws a fine and definite line between them and the rest of us.

There are evil people out there, yes, but nowhere near as many as some poeple would have us believe.

TaraFoxglove · 04-05-2011 11:49pm

Dudess wrote: »

Odysseus, do you believe at all that some folks might be simply bad? This isn't a criticism of you or smartarsery - genuine question. The whole "evil or insane?" debate is an interesting if complex one. I personally don't know what to think - initially I'd assume anyone who's capable of monstrousness is mentally ill, but then again, maybe some people are just horrible and enjoy inflicting suffering and that's too difficult for us to face...

Well, and this is attempting to explain not excuse the crime, but both boys had pretty bad childhoods with little discipline. That can't have helped.

Thompson was the manipulative ringleader, Venables was easily led.

holystungun9 · 04-05-2011 11:53pm

The-Rigger wrote: »

Didn't we have this story a year or two ago?

yes, and does it really matter either way? Isn't venebles just some football manager or player or something. He can't be that good / bad / whatever. Saipan all over again :rolleyes:

Odysseus · 04-05-2011 11:54pm

Dudess wrote: »

Odysseus, do you believe at all that some folks might be simply bad? This isn't a criticism of you or smartarsery - genuine question. The whole "evil or insane?" debate is an interesting if complex one. I personally don't know what to think - initially I'd assume anyone who's capable of monstrousness is mentally ill, but then again, maybe some people are just horrible and enjoy inflicting suffering and that's too difficult for us to face...

Most of my experience of sexual violence has been with people who experienced it, but I have worked with offenders too. I have never met a evil person in anyway; so in my experience I have found people who do bad acts to be mentally disordered, and any research I do around it suggest that rather than bad or evil.

I know it would be pointless working with some of the people I have worked over the years if they where evil. It's a big question whether treatment can be effective with some people, but I do know people who have benefited from it. I'm not saying it works for everyone, I would not consider my an expert in the area, but it makes more sense that just labelling the bad, it seems a cop out to me.

When you say bad, what does that mean? Can you elaborate on it, I would be interested in how you define the person bad rather than mad.

Odysseus · 04-05-2011 11:59pm

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Not aimed at me, I know, but I an still comment

I think people dismiss criminals as being "evil" far too quickly simply because it's easier. If we say that someone is "sick" then there's the fear that anyone could become sick. But say that they're "evil" and it draws a fine and definite line between them and the rest of us.

There are evil people out there, yes, but nowhere near as many as some poeple would have us believe.

How would you define these evil people? Once again just interested geniune question.

Dudess · 05-05-2011 12:09am

Odysseus wrote: »

When you say bad, what does that mean? Can you elaborate on it, I would be interested in how you define the person bad rather than mad.

Not mentally ill, not a victim of circumstances (abuse, neglect) yet capable of making others suffer terribly and enjoying it. I'm just wondering whether that's possible - I certainly don't know, and I'd certainly prefer to think there is nobody like that out there.

Odysseus · 05-05-2011 12:22am

Dudess wrote: »

Not mentally ill, not a victim of circumstances (abuse, neglect) yet capable of making others suffer terribly and enjoying it. I'm just wondering whether that's possible - I certainly don't know, and I'd certainly prefer to think there is nobody like that out there.

Whereas with a mentally disordered perspective it supplies us with some insight into why a person may commit such acts, how would you see the bad view as providing us with some insight into the reasons for those acts? I know it's a heavy topic for such late an hour; but I can't buy the evil viewpoint as it tells me nothing about the motivation, the enjoyment, the guilt or lack of it, etc that goes with such acts. That is why I believe the bad or evil perspective is a cop out.

It distances such people from us, I spend my day asking people to tell me their inner most thoughts, and even from people who never committed any type of violence towards another person, some scary stuff goes on in a lot of peoples minds. They only come out when you allow the person to speak freely without the fear of being condemed because of their own thoughts.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-05-2011 12:33am

Odysseus wrote: »

How would you define these evil people? Once again just interested geniune question.

By evil, I mean having a full knowledge of their actions and fully intending on hurting others as much as if not more than achieving their own pleasure. Sick, for me, would be someone who is more interested in their own pleasure.

Odysseus · 05-05-2011 12:51am

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

By evil, I mean having a full knowledge of their actions and fully intending on hurting others as much as if not more than achieving their own pleasure. Sick, for me, would be someone who is more interested in their own pleasure.

Cheers thanks for that. It bed for me, so maybe we can continue this another time, it's not as if this topic does not come up often enough here.

babyface11 · 05-05-2011 12:54am

i think its wrong how the english are treating him, i mean he did do what he did but he also managed the national football team, get a grip people!

aidan24326 · 05-05-2011 1:01am

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Well, and this is attempting to explain not excuse the crime, but both boys had pretty bad childhoods with little discipline. That can't have helped.

Oh come on pleae not this old chestnut again. The 'bad upbringing' thing always gets rolled out as though it were an explanation for every ill-deed. There has to be a whole lot more to it than that, as plenty of people get crappy and neglectful upbringings and turn out pretty ok. What they did needs a bit more explaining than mommy did't love me.

digme · 05-05-2011 1:20am

Odysseus wrote: »

Most of my experience of sexual violence has been with people who experienced it, but I have worked with offenders too. I have never met a evil person in anyway; so in my experience I have found people who do bad acts to be mentally disordered, and any research I do around it suggest that rather than bad or evil.

I know it would be pointless working with some of the people I have worked over the years if they where evil. It's a big question whether treatment can be effective with some people, but I do know people who have benefited from it. I'm not saying it works for everyone, I would not consider my an expert in the area, but it makes more sense that just labelling the bad, it seems a cop out to me.

When you say bad, what does that mean? Can you elaborate on it, I would be interested in how you define the person bad rather than mad.

evil is cutting a child in two when the train passes on the railway tracks. bad is stealing a car.

Dudess · 05-05-2011 1:57am

aidan24326 wrote: »

Oh come on pleae not this old chestnut again. The 'bad upbringing' thing always gets rolled out as though it were an explanation for every ill-deed. There has to be a whole lot more to it than that, as plenty of people get crappy and neglectful upbringings and turn out pretty ok. What they did needs a bit more explaining than mommy did't love me.

That doesn't rule out the possibility it was a factor - it's not excusing it though.

digme wrote: »

evil is cutting a child in two when the train passes on the railway tracks. bad is stealing a car.

Well Odysseus is saying, based on their extensive related research and work, that there doesn't seem to be evil without mental illness/damage.

TaraFoxglove · 05-05-2011 2:00am

aidan24326 wrote: »

Oh come on pleae not this old chestnut again. The 'bad upbringing' thing always gets rolled out as though it were an explanation for every ill-deed. There has to be a whole lot more to it than that, as plenty of people get crappy and neglectful upbringings and turn out pretty ok. What they did needs a bit more explaining than mommy did't love me.

No, I'm sorry but it would be completely daft to ignore it! The lack of discipline would be a factor. I find it more of an old chestnut to just neatly put it down to "evil".

Jesus Wept · 05-05-2011 2:21am

aidan24326 wrote: »

Oh come on pleae not this old chestnut again. The 'bad upbringing' thing always gets rolled out as though it were an explanation for every ill-deed. There has to be a whole lot more to it than that, as plenty of people get crappy and neglectful upbringings and turn out pretty ok. What they did needs a bit more explaining than mommy did't love me.

Actually I think if their mother didn't love them, it would explain a great deal.
Regardless, there are degrees of bad upbringings and people have different levels of resilience also. There is a myriad of factors.

'Evil' gets thrown around to a retarded degree and is just a dismissive way of not being bothered to attempt to understand (not condone) as to how a person became who they are.

TaraFoxglove · 05-05-2011 2:30am

The-Rigger wrote: »

Actually I think if their mother didn't love them, it would explain a great deal.
Regardless, there are degrees of bad upbringings and people have different levels of resilience also. There is a myriad of factors.

'Evil' gets thrown around to a retarded degree and is just a dismissive way of not being bothered to attempt understand (not condone) as to how a person became who they are.

Yeah, I mean obviously lots of kids have tough upbringings but how they deal with them may be different.

stovelid · 05-05-2011 10:24am

Saw the documentary last night but had to keep turning over as I have a young boy the same age as JB and it was too upsetting to watch in parts.

They had terrible upbringings but many people had worse and didn't do that. You can't help feeling there has to be some kind of mental explanation for it? That said, they were barely children themselves but I can't honestly believe that somebody that did that to a baby while they begged for their mother can just suddenly become adjusted, peaceful adults. Could they?

God help the people that had to make some sense of why they did what they did.

seamus · 05-05-2011 11:29am

stovelid wrote: »

They had terrible upbringings but many people had worse and didn't do that. You can't help feeling there has to be some kind of mental explanation for it?

Circumstance, experience, there's likely a myriad of factors which combine to turn two delinquent kids into murderers. Plenty of kids around that age devise horrific things to do to animals and other kids, but in this instance, all of the factors combined to end up with a baby losing his life.

That said, they were barely children themselves but I can't honestly believe that somebody that did that to a baby while they begged for their mother can just suddenly become adjusted, peaceful adults. Could they?

Suddenly, doubtful. But at ten years old, they're hardly set as the person they're going to be for the rest of their lives. "Evil" implies that there's an underlying force there from birth, imprinted and unchangeable. Which is of course, nonsense. It's a cop-out, an unwillingness to believe that the person who committed these acts is as human as you and I are, just having had different circumstances set on them.

Now, some traits are in-built, they manifest very early on, but the complicated level of thought which goes into these kinds of acts isn't something that spontaneously exists in the person. It's the combination of the inbuilt personal traits combined with how the person's upbringing has influenced (and been influenced) by those characteristics.
In rare cases, like this one, you end up with unspeakable acts.

One of the guys ended up being caught for child porn. No doubt part of the whole tapestry of ****ed-upness in his brain. The other guy has been given a new identity and hasn't surfaced since. So there's every reason to assume that he has moved from "evil" child to reformed adult.

bluelegend · 05-05-2011 5:56pm

Some facts about the case that people on here may not be aware off:

1. They walked 2.5 miles with JB, lying to countless people and passing numerous opportunities to leave JB be (including passing a police station).

2. There was a poor upbringing fact - very much so in Thompson's case though not as bad with Venables - it's widely believed that Thompson is far more intelligent.

3. All psychiatric tests on them at the time maintained that they know right from wrong and were acting in full knowledge of what they were doing.

4. They tried to abduct another child earlier that day from the Strand SC.

5. They tortured and allegedly (never proven though evidence pointed towards it) sexually abused JB.

5. They never ever, showed any remorse for the killing.

Now please don't tell me that these kids were a symptom of their environs and that it is in any way excusable for what they did. I've heard of blaming the parents but not in this instance. There's something in those boys (now men) far more rotten than being a victim of their upbringing.

Odysseus · 05-05-2011 6:02pm

digme wrote: »

evil is cutting a child in two when the train passes on the railway tracks. bad is stealing a car.

The are only acts, what is the evil or the bad that makes the person commit the act?

Odysseus · 05-05-2011 6:09pm

bluelegend wrote: »

Some facts about the case that people on here may not be aware off:

1. They walked 2.5 miles with JB, lying to countless people and passing numerous opportunities to leave JB be (including passing a police station).

2. There was a poor upbringing fact - very much so in Thompson's case though not as bad with Venables - it's widely believed that Thompson is far more intelligent.

3. All psychiatric tests on them at the time maintained that they know right from wrong and were acting in full knowledge of what they were doing.

4. They tried to abduct another child earlier that day from the Strand SC.

5. They tortured and allegedly (never proven though evidence pointed towards it) sexually abused JB.

5. They never ever, showed any remorse for the killing.

Now please don't tell me that these kids were a symptom of their environs and that it is in any way excusable for what they did. I've heard of blaming the parents but not in this instance. There's something in those boys (now men) far more rotten than being a victim of their upbringing.

Trying to understand/explain why a person may commit such acts is not excusing them. The act and they result of that act remain the same, not buying into cop-outs such as they where evil, does not mean people do not think they should not be punished. In the same way, trying to understand these acts is not ablout placing blame anywhere.

bluelegend · 05-05-2011 6:12pm

Odysseus wrote: »

The are only acts, what is the evil or the bad that makes the person commit the act?

Interesting one.....maybe being bad is a desire. A desire to impress upon others or oneself that they can achive something like steal a car, trip someone up. Evil in my humble opinion, is an emotion that expresses an act of which the individual has no regret or thoughts of the implications of that act.

As you can see I most defintiely am not qualified in this area.....just my tuppence.

Odysseus · 05-05-2011 6:34pm

bluelegend wrote: »

Interesting one.....maybe being bad is a desire. A desire to impress upon others or oneself that they can achive something like steal a car, trip someone up. Evil in my humble opinion, is an emotion that expresses an act of which the individual has no regret or thoughts of the implications of that act.

As you can see I most defintiely am not qualified in this area.....just my tuppence.

And everybody is entitled to their tuppence. However, when you look at some of the strong opinions about what should happen to people who commit such acts, I do believe that if you want to stand over such strong opinion, that you should try understand what motivates people who rape, kill, toture etc.

I don't think you can take a person seriously who thinks that such people are evil, and that society can just lock them away as they willnot/cannot change. Especially as they never tried to understand it, or accept that part of the justice system is facilitating treatment when there was something wrong in the person life, which is part of the reason why the committed the act.

There is a shedload of research on the mad or bad question, if you want people to listen to your tuppence, at least try educate yourself around the questions involved. But hey mob justice is always more popular,

bluelegend · 05-05-2011 11:56pm

Odysseus wrote: »

And everybody is entitled to their tuppence. However, when you look at some of the strong opinions about what should happen to people who commit such acts, I do believe that if you want to stand over such strong opinion, that you should try understand what motivates people who rape, kill, toture etc.

I don't think you can take a person seriously who thinks that such people are evil, and that society can just lock them away as they willnot/cannot change. Especially as they never tried to understand it, or accept that part of the justice system is facilitating treatment when there was something wrong in the person life, which is part of the reason why the committed the act.

There is a shedload of research on the mad or bad question, if you want people to listen to your tuppence, at least try educate yourself around the questions involved. But hey mob justice is always more popular,[/QUOT

Strange comments since I never suggested what should or should not happen to them and I certainly never advocated mob justice. I gave my tuppence on the mindset of these boys at the time nothing else. Why should I need to educate myself as you suggest. Very strange comments Odysseus.

UglyBolloxFace · 06-05-2011 5:59pm

Well I've been doing some reading on the net about his new identity and I can say without a doubt it is him.
What do you think will happen now? New identity? But how will he hide his face?

Also, am I the only one who is actually disgusted by the things that people say about it; barbaric stuff about what they'd do to Venables? I know he's a disgusting bastard for what he did, but where's the line?

Although if I was personally affected by his actions then I'm sure my opinion would be different

Typical comments: "oh if i eva saw hm i wud kill him, cut em in haf i wud, deservez to hang e does"

Owwmykneecap · 06-05-2011 10:05pm

Look through this CHRIS thing's photo's Notice the photo of osama.

It's a fake.
Fake.
Fake
FAKE!

Do you understand now why that page is so dangerous, they can't even spot a well known fake, from the real deal (which is not public domain)

newballsplease · 02-06-2011 7:06pm

Newspapers reporting of a new photo emerging of JV at a party on the anniversy of jamie bulgers death... Anyone know wat site this can be seen? Pm me

Jon Venables Identity revealed

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