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Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
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Christopher Ward
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10-07-2019 3:14pm#1
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fret_wimp2 the worst lies are the ones well tell ourselves.
I used to convince myself that desirable watches did nothing for me, I was a unique flower and a proper enthusiast not succumbing to the usual brands. Funny how the watches I could afford or was willing to fork out for, were the ones I wanted
I think you deserve better.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Coolaboola.Brooks Howling Martini wrote: »see Wibbs I have to have a long rant here...
Meh, it's entirely down to one's perception and the perception promoted by advertisers. I come from a generation that when Rolex comes up thinks fake/used car salesman/terribly nouveau. If this were 1960 and I lived outside the UK and its ex colonies I'd likely have even never heard of them. Their watches were the same pricepoint as similar from Omega, Longines and others(and their movements weren't within an asses roar of any of them. They couldn't even rattle out their own chronograph movement). IWC? Until their DaVinci came out they were almost unknown. Heuer? Made some lovely designed watches back in the day, but weren't inhouse until much later, their records are nonexistent and when TAG got involved quality went way up. And they stopped looking at going bankrupt every other month. Breguet has as much to do with the original chap as I do. And so forth.One day you look at your so called collection and its just a bunch of trash. There is nothing to be proud of. Nothing classy, nothing that speaks for itself, everything would need tedious explanation as to why its of any value.
And Rolex doing a DeBeers with supply and Omega firing out a new "limited edition" moon watch every week aren't? They're doing exactly the same thing. They're just better at the BS. Brands like that may be junk food, but most of the main premium brands for ordinary men are all a decent steak and veggies. Omega just change the colour of the plates every week and Rolex make you wait six months for a table and both charge like wounded rhinos for the privilege. Why do you think the fakes are freaking them out more than ever? Oh it was easy to dismiss when they were running a cheap quartz movement, but when they're getting closer and closer to the real deal with every year, yet at a tenth or less of the price? That makes people wonder. Is a steel Rolex better quality than the equivalent high end Seiko or Omega, or a few others? Nope. It isn't. You are paying for the name and the bragging rights, almost exclusively to oneself.These flash sales are there like junk food, to satisfy you desire to purchase, but like junk food leave you unsatisfied. Our collector personalities are being manipulated...Búramach
Which could be written by an advertising copywriter.Brooks Howling Martini wrote: »fret_wimp2 the worst lies are the ones well tell ourselves.
I think you deserve better.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59000
Different strokes and the like. I've been in the enviable position of having the means and sometimes the means to burn and that didn't figure for me.Brooks Howling Martini wrote: »I used to convince myself that desirable watches did nothing for me, I was a unique flower and a proper enthusiast not succumbing to the usual brands. Funny how the watches I could afford or was willing to fork out for, were the ones I wanted.
Now I'd be different as it was nearly always in the vintage realm and it was before the mainstream watches as jewellery bit really kicked in. Take Rolex as an example. Again my perception was a bit Delboy Trotter swanning about on the Costa Del Crime, so current models never really did it for me. That said I always loved their Milsub and was offered one in the early 90's. Two or three odd grand at the time. I liked it, but not that much and as I say at the time, it wouldn't have been much of an ouch to fork it over. Hell I paid that for a fishing holiday and the fishing rod cost 600 quid outside of that. My only regret is the investment end Doh! Plus at the time and pretty much still, though I bloody love military watches I felt well I didn't earn it diving in the North Sea or whatever(hence I generally went German mil stuff, cos if they were nazis, meh). I did have a Rolex Cellini which was a nice watch actually and almost ignored these days. I also had a collection of early Oysters and Bubblebacks and a couple of 50's "dress" Rolex oysters. They taught me a lesson too, when the hype over them came, went utterly nuts in the early days of the interwebs with "experts" reckoning fantastic investments and then crashed overnight. Luckily I got out before they did and covered my arse and them some. I had a Speedy for a time too, a pre moon with it. Didn't get on with it for some reason(ditto with the Seiko Pogue, mustn't like the space watches ) and sold it. Double doh!
If I could jump the queue would I buy a brand new Rolex sports model today? Sure, and then flip it for cash from the currently gullible which they want to buy and buy the kind of watches I'd want to buy. Which for me is unusual, actually rare, or innovative, or quirky, or modernist, or even daft.
Like I say, different strokes. And it's all good.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I did manage to get MsThirdfox interested in watches "ooh a tourbillon is quite pretty! And you say there's "technically" a functional reason for them?" Hopefully someday she'll be able to do the same for me and luxury bags :pac:Brooks Howling Martini wrote: »Your a guy (we are nearly all guys lets be honest) getting into watches....
Hmm - these terms all seem to be rather subjective to me. If someone finds Invicta "classy" and is proud of their watch (though of course that does raise a question of why would you be proud of an inanimate object you purchased) who are we to say they're wrong? I may think that a diamond stud on the tooth isn't classy or a lovely piece of jewellery for a man but I recognise that thousands or millions of people may disagree with me.One day you look at your so called collection and its just a bunch of trash. There is nothing to be proud of. Nothing classy, nothing that speaks for itself, everything would need tedious explanation as to why its of any value. Nothing there is a nice piece of jewellery
Ouch - separate to the overall thrust of my post Tag are going to be pretty hurt you've put them in the same category as say CW or DW etc. Their mikrograph and that amazing new escapement (that they've had to hand over to Zenith due to internal LVMH politics) show that they are certainly still innovating - the escapement in particular seems to me to be a gamechanger for mechanical timekeeping devices - I made a thread about it some time ago:so after a few months you buckle and branch into something like, a Ginault, a Chrisopher ward, a Tag....expensive but affordable. You get it, but its not what you really want. Your heart sinks.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106880800 - accuracy rated at 7.5 seconds per month (Tag researched this and gave(!) it to Zenith to use in the Defy).
My Pelagos was flipped at no loss to myselfYou try to flip it...and you take a 50% loss. For example there are two Tudor GMT Pepsi on Adverts a 2019 and a 2018. Both barley worn. Why....because the collector wanted a Rolex but settled for a Tudor...he realised...****, this is a wannabe watch, nobody else has a rashers what it is or that it cost 4 grand everyone thinks its a homage. Your sick of people asking is it a Rolex only for you to explain how its not...but but but..., better flip and get back what I can. They will both take a 1000 euro loss on that (they think they wont but they will). - good pieces are good pieces no what what brand is on them.
Now the statements may be an exercise in subjective hyperbole - but I think it's quite unfair to say that CW is unoriginal (those hands don't seem to be based on other brands?) And just like Apple trying to sue for "slide to unlock" - there's only so many things a watch can look like...With Christopher ward what you get is nothing, you get an expensive watch, of unoriginal design, with no brand name, no quality, no desirability and no resale value. The fact they all lie does not somehow add credibility to these brands. No, the desirable watches are just that, desirable. And undesirable watches are just that, undesirable.
Quality: - the watch doesn't seem to break down right? There is an intrinsic quality to the mechanism - aren't they Sellita/ETA movements?
Resale value: - sure they won't have a Rolex's resale value but there is still some value to be had.
Desirability: maybe some people desire a watch that is "Swiss Made", functions as advertised and looks "good" in their eyes? Who are we to say that's not desirable?
Some people are immensely "satisfied" with junk food :pac:These flash sales are there like junk food, to satisfy you desire to purchase, but like junk food leave you unsatisfied. Our collector personalities are being manipulated...Bí cúramach0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59000
To be fair FG, you hear people say they don't care about that stuff; I actually don't. Never really did for some reason. I'm just wired differently. For a while in my 20's I did care that I didn't care and tried to fake it, but couldn't. IIRC it was because of a woman as these things often areBrooks Howling Martini wrote: »Aye....here is the crux of the matter. When you actually think on this and whether. its good or bad, and why you want jewelry, and what this jewlery says about you to yourself and to others, and how it makes you feel, and what you had to do to get it...you have your answer. We can pretend that our internal dialogue is all that matter, our own person truth...but as social creatures there is value in external validation and the hierarchy of values.
I am not talking to you here wibbs, you collect for different reasons than 99% of people out there, and you collect totally different stuff to most. My idea of purgatory is being in a group dressed in tailored suits to cover up their well fed gut, while discussing in their best telephone voice the merits of their Lexus's/Lexi as a golf club transportation device. Or office politics and that(never worked for anyone else but myself. Hell, I wouldn't hire me ). Now of course that's an exaggeration of the social position jockeying stuff but I just couldn't get into it and as I say I could have at various points in my life. I dunno, among the normal DNA nucleotides of ACTG scattered about I also have D and F which gives rise to DGAF along the chain.
Which can be a pain in the arse. It's so much better to be "normal", but one positive is that over the years I've found it has helped me avoid much of the BS and empty currency of the current. Saved a few quid too. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59000
More they speak to some very basic needs within the human psyche, at least in the general population. Doubly so for mass produced luxury veblen goods. The idea of both exclusivity and perceived rarity, while somewhat contrarily belonging to the wider group that gets the "value" of the good in question. The telegraphing of social status and "snob value". The latter is about the name and often the price being less an indicator of actual quality and practical use and more an indicator of cost as quality.Brooks Howling Martini wrote: »Advertising Copywriters speak to what we know or hope is true and what we want, thats why I sound like one. I am very philosophical this evening.
In the watch world you tend to see this more illustrated with US based forums and other social media. It's more an aspirational culture where being nouveau is seen much more as a positive, rather than the negative it can be seen in the old world. A site like Hodinkee's sales section illustrates this. Anyone with even a passing interest in reading about vintage watches will quickly find out their prices and quality of goods on offer are daftly overpriced and often misdescribed or even junkers, yet they sell their overpriced stock in double quick time. I've regularly read people being quietly proud that their [insert Swiss brand here] watch's service costs are higher than another brands.
I have a strong feeling we've passed the peak of "watch". The exception being the current company driven artificial rarity of steel Rolex sports model and the hype around that. To the point that if Tudor once had the rose as a logo steel Rolex should have a tulip... The signs of a contraction are most certainly there in the vintage and secondhand markets. The above Hodinkee and their dealer buddies are writhing around looking for and hoping to hype the Next Big Thing™ and failing dismally as people are beginning to question their "experts". The comment section of their "Bring a Loupe" section has changed a lot in the last year with more and more asking questions of their choices and the prices attached, and that's just the comments that are approved. Indeed the number of comments themselves on any section has dropped off.However I would be interest to see how peoples attitudes will have changed in 10 years
My angle has always been and remains; buy and wear what you want and like to wear, whether that be an Argos Casio or a Patek(on the wrists of billionaires you're as likely to see the former as the latter). The plain fact is outside of some rare enough social jockeying environments like a Dubai business meeting or whatever almost nobody else will notice or care. Like I noted in the pics thread of all the watches I have ever owned the one that gets the most attention and enquiry and general nods of approval by a long margin is a weird looking yoke that most watch aficionados wouldn't strap on if you paid them*.
When non watch folks have asked me what Good watch for life ™ to buy my advice such as it is also remains the same: A mid range Seiko Diver, or a steel Rolex, or Omega Seamaster and if you prefer a dial with more going on an Omega Speedy(for a dress watch if that's a consideration a "basic" Patek Calatrava). Job done.
*I actually wore it on the regular of late and within about a week I had a few stares and two people asked me about it directly; a lass at a checkout in Tesco and a bloke in a garage when I was paying for petrol.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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fret_wimp2 - A stowa Flieger is very similar to the superior iwc schaffhausen or a Zenith Pilot type or a Junghans Pilot or dare I say it and airking or Explorer, or just about every panerai... or how about a Patek Philippe Calatrava Pilot Travel Time (a superb watch) . If you have found nothing better, might I respectfully suggest you are not looking hard enough. I quite like a stowa, but there are a lot of watches I would get first....
Wibbs - we know you are special case (maybe nut case). But you have to say that usually when people say they are not into a 80 grand patek its more that patek is not into them, or that they cannot imagine a time where such a purchase would be feasible for them with their currently held values. If they were to be gifted one, (and enough money that selling it was unnecessary) you can bet they would suddenly be super into it.We are all social apes, and its important. We all jocky for position be it with superior knowledge, superior resources, superior looks or physical characteristics or superior personality and coolness...thats how the world works and we all fall into or aspire to, at least one category.
On your "One and done " watch recommendation I agree..I also agree about the watch market, but the last gasp of a dying animal are dangerous. They do stuff like 50% off flash sales.
Thirdfox - Yes different strokes for different folks, but not all strokes are equal and if its junk food you consume in large amounts its a stroke you will have.
On a side note retail on your pelagos is €4290 (I am sure you got a discount) and you sold it for €2300 or €2600 asking price having dropped it from 2750...I tell myself such deals are not losing money also...but they are. It lost nearly 50% of its value in two years, holy crap. Maybe you really lost no money but buy god some sucker did after flipping it quick from new.
Here is a little secret...nobody actually cares about movement innovations. Once its reasonably accurate, easy to service, robust and reliable thats all that matters. If its accuracy your after look at your phone. The Co-axial movement is only now getting reliable, they were god awful at the start, very unreliable, and at the end of the day pretty pointless, just like spring drive (or as I would call it stealth quartz). In House movements are more desirable, but only if the house they are "in" is big enough to ensure parts availability and servicing. What differentiates most good movements from lesser ones is the finishing.
I stand by my point. Cristopher Ward is a dangerous watch. priced to stimulate a reflex purchase without consideration to those with disposable income to spend on jewellery but not enough experiance to see the long term ramifications of this. It will never be serviced, and once its broken it will be disposed of. The Wibbs of 2089 will not have cristopher ward in his collection. Any cristopher ward found in your positions after you die will be broken and sold in a charity shop for a euro.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59000
Taste comes into it too. Panerais either appeal or they don't. You can pick up a "homage" for a couple of hundred quid and they'd not appeal to many. The Zenith? The first one with the pocketwatch NOS 50's movement was pretty cool if daftly massive, the latest ones are veering into tacky with their faux patina. Wouldn't be my bag TBH and I have an actual original one once worn by a lad who did 90 degree screaming dives over the Russian plains. The Junghans are appealing alright. The Rolex are a very different style, though the Explorer is nice.Brooks Howling Martini wrote: »fret_wimp2 - A stowa Flieger is very similar to the superior iwc schaffhausen or a Zenith Pilot type or a Junghans Pilot or dare I say it and airking or Explorer, or just about every panerai...or how about a Patek Philippe Calatrava Pilot Travel Time (a superb watch).
Ah the Patek.. From their website:
Patek Philippe Calatrava Pilot Travel Time Ref. 5524 With its new Ref. 5524 Calatrava Pilot Travel Time, Patek Philippe pays tribute to the courageous pioneers of aeronautics, recalls milestones in aviation, and touches upon the fact that the eminent family-owned Genevan manufacture also contributed to the conquest of the skies.
Touches upon the fact? :pac: I love their "fact". They made three "pilots"(actually navigators) watches in their entire history as a brand. To a very specific template by an outside source(Luftwaffe B-Uhr late 30's spec) and never sold them for some reason. Likely because they were too expensive and offered no real world benefit, rather like the way the French airforce told Breguet to take a hike in the early 70's over the costs of their Type XX offering. Three. And one was a pocket watch. Of course it's a quality timepiece, but the rest is complete BS from their marketing department and a great example of same. It's faux authenticity. All surface authentic. Just like some brands and their aged lume.
Actually my dad had a Patek and left it to me, rose gold Calatrava on a leather strap. Sadly it was lost a few years ago(long pain in the arse story) along with his 50's Longines of a similar dressy style. I'd prefer the Longines back funny enough. Again the old perception comes into it. As a kid I thought Patek were "oulfellas" watches.Wibbs - we know you are special case (maybe nut case). But you have to say that usually when people say they are not into a 80 grand patek its more that patek is not into them, or that they cannot imagine a time where such a purchase would be feasible for them with their currently held values. If they were to be gifted one, (and enough money that selling it was unnecessary) you can bet they would suddenly be super into it.
Well one could go back and forth on that. At a very basic level, at least for a man, the top of the tree is how much free time one chooses to spend, how immune one is to consequences, how attractive one's partner is. Even in something like debt; if the bank rings you and you gulp, then you're under the guy that when the bank rings him they gulp.We are all social apes, and its important. We all jocky for position be it with superior knowledge, superior resources, superior looks or physical characteristics or superior personality and coolness...thats how the world works and we all fall into or aspire to, at least one category. On on even more basic darwinian level, the guy of variable employment with four kids from three different women is "ahead" of the middle management accountant with the corner office, expense account, homely wife and one kid. Depends on how one looks at things. Now granted as you point out I do have an odd way of looking at things.
Oh sure and I'd only buy at 50%.On your "One and done " watch recommendation I agree..I also agree about the watch market, but the last gasp of a dying animal are dangerous. They do stuff like 50% off flash sales.
And yet there are Swatch collectors and some can go for a pretty penny. At one time when another bubble was in play some went for daft money. Some Mickey Mouse watches go for many thousands. I remember a time when all vintage wristwatches were seen as "old" and "old fashioned". Actually my dad got his Patek valued in the mid 80's at 1500-2000(Weirs IIRC). Was a fair chunk, but his Longines VHP quartz cost the guts of a 1000 around the same time. If you got 300 quid for it now... Watches only got interest at general auctions if they were made from gold. There's a reason there are a fair number of old movements sans cases out there. You couldn't give away Rolex Daytonas in the 80's. Hell there's a reason vintage Daytonas are thin on the ground, because even when new they were a hard sell. Heuer couldn't get arrested in many markets and in the US resorted to more cut price models sold off as part of cigarette packet tokens. If we were having this conversation in the 70's or 80's you'd have a very different mindset and your watch choices if you were to make them would aim at something in gold or half gold, or more likely feel watches were a wasted "investment".I stand by my point. Cristopher Ward is a dangerous watch. priced to stimulate a reflex purchase without consideration to those with disposable income to spend on jewellery but not enough experiance to see the long term ramifications of this. It will never be serviced, and once its broken it will be disposed of. The Wibbs of 2089 will not have cristopher ward in his collection. Any cristopher ward found in your positions after you die will be broken and sold in a charity shop for a euro.
Having attended a few relatives funerals and what happened to their stuff after they were gone, intrinsic value had little to do with things and stuff like watches and other jewellery were dispersed among the family. Much of it never worn again because fashions change. Even so called classics today will almost certainly date. That includes items that themselves are dated already for "authenticity's" sake. One thing is pretty sure; what someone has in a collection in 2089 will almost certainly not be what we expect. If watches are even a thing then. Actually I'd maybe suggest getting a secondhand NOS in its box first series Apple Watch and put it away.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59000
TLDR, Rolex good, everything else ****e.:D That can definitely be a thing with some collectors alright and grand. Just a different approach. Tends to happen in any collector market when it goes from small fry hobbyist to more mainstream. I've seen it creep into a fair few forums over the last few years. And again that's cool and the gang. Whatever oils your axle. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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fret_wimp2 wrote: »I'm pretry sure there won't. It was always my aspirational watch and it turned out to meet my expectations.
I'm going to use that one so the wife will allow me to spend €15k on the watch I want. "It's actually not for me, it's for the kids". :pac:
Well certain watches (not just now in the current madness but over long periods of time) will always be desirable, recognised and of value anywhere in the world. If you are in trouble anywhere in the world your Rolex/Patek/AP/VC will buy you a ticket home and a lawyer. Any pawnshop will give you money for it. Its an asset, worth insuring and an asset you can pass to your children (tax free I would add these grey assets). Enjoy wearing it, and sell it for actually what you paid for it or maybe a little more. If you have your ultraman speedmaster on, or your stowa or your seiko you have greatly limited your options.
Why do these watches have this characteristic...answer is the very same reasons these watches do nothing for the cool kids.
You go back in history and the brands were younger and were still playing at being useful tools rather than jewellery. I cannot every see a time in the future where a 6 digit Rolex submariner for instance is worth less than retail (mostly cause retail is undervalued due to Rolex's funny nature). People attitudes to watches have changed so much. The asian market is huge (and they love their quality brands) and the apple watch and fit bit are putting things back on peoples wrists.
Wibbs I am sorry about your Dads watches, I am sure you would love to have them, and you certainly could tell a few tales around them.
I think you were mistaking my interest in that Patek. I was merely point out that if you like a Stowa then you would probably like one of those Pateks. I dont expect my pilots watch to be used by pilots (lets hope they are not reliant on a mechanical watch), or my chronograph to be used by race care drivers, these are merely design language names we place on watch types all harping back to a time when different professions needed different types of watches. Pointing out the fact that its all faux heritage is not news to anyone, but i understand it offends you specific sensibilities. Expensive watches and shidder brands tell the same bull**** tales, but you buy a patek and you have a patek. Buy a shidder and you have a shidder.
EDIT......Now......
This "TBH FG, you're veering more and more towards sounding pretentious and snooty here" comment. This is the racism card of watch collecting. You cannot dislike anything because to do that is to be a watch snob. This claim of snobbery now overrides all my points and is a low blow. Yeah I am now just another rich prick here to swing my Rolex micky about. I am not a real enthusiast, I have just bought my way in, and my taste is only for money and prestige....This is totally unfair, espically from a man whose father left him a patek. I bought my father his only good watch with my first paycheck a quartz seamaster. I am out.
Tldr....Christopher ward is a brand designed to part fools and their money.
Strawman attacks..see below0 -
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Indeed the best response would have been to note that CW are pretty famous for having Harvey Norman "big sale"(s) - but it doesn't mean DFS sofas are trash etc
And I think another thing on a forum such as this is that we're supposed to be helpful and courteous to one another - if I went onto a pen forum and said Mont Blanc are having a sale! and then someone told me actually they're kinda meh in quality I'd be a disappointed after splashing out for one and having it in the post - I guess if people didn't ask for comments on quality (and we're not addressing whether CW is "quality" or not) then the helpful thing to say would be to let people know that CW often has sales... or that say Invicta (used to? don't know anymore) have super high RRPs to offer 70% off etc "deals" - it doesn't mean that the invicta watch is bad - the marketing method might be a bit suspect however. Do Ball actually fall into the "big sale" category too - I vaguely remember something about them.
With 40% off are the CW watches approaching microbrand prices i.e. 150-200% of a microbrand using Seiko NH35 movements? That would seem to be a good price point for the watch (especially if you like the design).
As for my old Pelagos - it wasn't bought new - but who am I to say that the first owner didn't enjoy the boutique experience of being the first owner and priced that experience as being worth a few thousand euro to them? To some (especially if they have the monetary means to do so) they can flip watches at 50% "loss" because it's chump change to them - they've enjoyed being the first owner.
Just bought a bicycle for €330 that cost the owner €3000+ to assemble - but he got years of service out of it and enjoyed it for what it was. I get a great deal and top spec stuff for a lot less. I think concentrating on retained value is a little near sighted - most goods are expected to fall in value on resale - and if we only buy watches for "investment value" then that's pretty sad in my opinion.
Buy what you like - and what you can afford
edit:
Just checked - so a 2824 diver costs €495 now - that's a fine price for what it is I would have thought. Seiko NH35 divers are around 200-300 from the homage brands.
And not to completely disagree with all of your points I do agree that sometimes some purchases are "bad" - i.e. the item really actually isn't fit for purpose. I bought a few strap changing tools from China wanting to save a few euro (€1-2 vs €24)...in the end I still bought the Bergeon tool - if I bought the tool in the beginning I would have saved more money than faffing about with tools that unfortunately weren't good enough to be used.
I just think that criticising the CW watches is the wrong hill to die on - if you said something about the €1 Chinese springbar tools I'd be in full agreement with you! And hey China's going to make better tools in the future too (or maybe they already do - but I guess at a certain price point the thing is just "too cheap" to be made correctly) - if I bought a €15 Chinese tool it might have been fine - though at that point people ask why not just get the Swiss tool instead.0 -
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