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06-12-2018, 00:46   #16
Peregrinus
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Originally Posted by loyatemu View Post
shouldn't be in the constitution at all. The orginal clause was part of Dev's "catholic Ireland" vision, I guess when it was changed a replacement article was inserted to make it more likely to pass but now that we've had 20 years of divorce without Ireland turning into a polygamous free-for-all surely the simplest thing is to just delete the article and legislate for a simpler system.

If 2 people want to get divorced and there's no dispute, they should be able to do so with the minimum of fuss - this is what they're looking at in the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...e-in-break-ups
Well, on a nitpick, no. If two people want to get divorced in the UK they can already do so with a minimum of fuss. The issue they are currently grappling with is how much fuss there has to be if only one of them wants to get divorced.
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06-12-2018, 07:38   #17
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It's a different issue, but I'd rather they were left unrecognised.

If you feel the need to have a prenup, then marriage isn't for you. IMHO.

I'd rather the conditions were made explicit in law, e.g. everything earned before and after the marriage belongs to the individual, everything earned inside the marriage is divided 50:50.
Why? Once you have two consenting adults agreeing in advance of what exactly they want their marriage to mean why should your preconceived notions of what a marriage should mean take precedent? Marriage can mean very different things to different people. Myself and my OH for example got married on the advice of our solicitor for example to look after the best interests of our kids, should one of us predecease the other. Neither of us particularly wanted to get married, having already been together for 17 years, it was an act of simple pragmatism. A prenup might be perfectly reasonable in many situations, e.g. where there are kids from one or both sides prior to the marriage that you're planning on passing accumulated wealth on to.
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06-12-2018, 12:48   #18
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And if it may not be permanent, then it's not really marriage either, is it?

Don't want to sound too dumb here, but marriage looks to me like a fully legal life-long contract which people can subsequently choose to default upon (for good or bad reasons).

Which is it - life-long or only potentially life-long?
Potentially lifelong.
But while it endures, sharing is a requirement. Remember what Barny says; sharing is caring.

If you need any more counselling, I'm available.
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06-12-2018, 15:46   #19
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Potentially lifelong.
But while it endures, sharing is a requirement. Remember what Barny says; sharing is caring.

If you need any more counselling, I'm available.
So in addition to Tommy Robinson, Barney is another of your oracles?
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06-12-2018, 15:54   #20
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Potentially lifelong.
So why are people saying "till death do us part" if approximately 50% of all married couples will subsequently welch on that commitment?
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06-12-2018, 16:21   #21
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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07-12-2018, 00:32   #22
Hotblack Desiato
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and not your rubbish pre marital course you have to sign up to..
There's no legal requirement to do a pre-marriage course. If you choose to subject yourself to the rules of a batsh!t crazy church then that's your own business.


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if approximately 50% of all married couples will subsequently welch on that commitment?
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07-12-2018, 03:35   #23
Peregrinus
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So why are people saying "till death do us part" if approximately 50% of all married couples will subsequently welch on that commitment?
Nitpick: the figure for Ireland is more like 1-in-10. We have an unusually low divorce rate. The 50% statistic comes from the US, where they have an unusually high divorce rate. (And even in the US, I believe, it's considered a dodgily high figure.)

Why do people say "till death do us part"? Because that's what they want. They know it might not work out that way, but they want it to.

This isn't true just for starry-eyed teenagers. Smacl tells us that he and his Reason for Living got marrried after being together for 17 years and having several kids. It was an act of "simple pragmatism", to protect the kids "should one of us predecease the other" (which, spoiler alert, is statistically very likely to happen, when you think about it). Clearly, Smacl and the Object of his Affections expect their marriage to last until one of them dies; for them, that's the very scenario that the marriage is intended to address.

None of which is to say that they, or any other couple, shouldn't consider or enter into prenuptial agreements. There are two good reasons for doing this. First, even though you may want it to last forever, it may not, and there is merit in thinking about what your wishes and expectations might be if it doesn't. But, secondly, it doesn't just have to be about the possiblity of relationship breakdown; a prenuptial agreement can deal with how you expect things to work while you are together - how finances will be arranged, how decisions will be made, expectations of support for one another in relation to careers, etc, etc. And the merit of dealing with all this is not that you end up with a set of legally binding commitments governing these issues - prenuptial agreements are not really legally binding - but more that you discuss them and arrive at some kind of shared understanding or, at least, identify any areas where you may have different ideas, and so think about how to deal with your disagreement.

All of which begins to make getting a prenuptial agreement sound quite like doing a marriage preparation course. And, to be honest, the two processes have a good deal in common.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 07-12-2018 at 03:42.
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07-12-2018, 03:41   #24
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Until death do us part is part is a vow used in Catholic weddings because that's the churches stance on it.

In a civil service you can use different vows.

Many people want a church wedding but do not have Catholic beliefs so just go along with it anyway.
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07-12-2018, 08:33   #25
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Until death do us part is part is a vow used in Catholic weddings because that's the churches stance on it.

In a civil service you can use different vows.

Many people want a church wedding but do not have Catholic beliefs so just go along with it anyway.
Ours was a registry office job, and while there was no mention of death, that was still pretty much the gist of things. Could make for some interesting vows, 'I now pronounce you man and wife, until such time as one of you gets a better offer or has just had enough the relationship', which when you think about it would be far closer to the truth
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07-12-2018, 08:37   #26
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Nitpick: the figure for Ireland is more like 1-in-10. We have an unusually low divorce rate.
I'd suggest that part of this is also because divorce has been so damn awkward in this country. I don't know many divorcees, but I do know one hell of a lot of married couples who've split up. I also know a few who haven't but might be better off if they did, social expectations and stigma also have a role here.
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07-12-2018, 08:54   #27
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I'd suggest that part of this is also because divorce has been so damn awkward in this country. I don't know many divorcees, but I do know one hell of a lot of married couples who've split up. I also know a few who haven't but might be better off if they did, social expectations and stigma also have a role here.
Yes, fair point. Because of the legal setup here, if unhappy differences arise a couple will usually get a formal separation and sort out their property, parenting, etc arrangements at that point. Some years may pass between this and the opportunity to obtain for a divorce, so application for divorce will nto be driven by a need to sort out the practical issues. People may only apply for divorce either because they want the sense of closure that will bring, or because they want to marry someone else. So that could keep the (formal) divorce rate down.

A crude measure of the incidence of divorce in any society might be from census returns; the number of people identifing as divorced as a percentage of the number of ever-married people. But I'll leave it to the honours students to do the research and the calculcations on that.
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07-12-2018, 10:02   #28
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Why do people say "till death do us part"? Because that's what they want. They know it might not work out that way, but they want it to.
I'm not denying that people want their state of married bliss to last forever - who wouldn't? - but simply asking the question why the legal form of marriage, at least in the public mind, is a permanent arrangement, while in fact and very often, it's a temporary one.

Also, from various perspectives, marriage can be seen as coercive, giving considerable power to one individual to allow them to dominate the other if and when things deteriorate - perhaps owing to changes of one kind or another, or people learning things about the other person which weren't made clear the day the contract was signed. I'm reminded of my own godfather who married back in 1960's in the full knowledge that he was gay, a fact which his then-wife only learned of on her honeymoon and had her, in short order, marching to the airport and home again.

One way around the permanence/not-permanent issue is an idea which some legal systems are toying with - renewable, non-permanent marriage contracts. These switch the interest of both parties from a default position of avoiding discussion of divorce, to the opposite - a more helpful discussion requiring the active agreement of both people to continue - a conscious decision and discussion which, in my view, a lot of couples could benefit from having.
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27-03-2019, 08:43   #29
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Heard a small bit more about this referendum in the news recently. Seems to be scheduled for May. I'm hoping it gets well publicised that there is a need to reduce the waiting time from four years down to two.

Unfortunately it may not drum up the interest in many people if they are not directly affected by it. I hope I'm wrong and people get out & vote to reduce this draconian waiting time. Everyone goes into marriage with the best of intentions but when it goes wrong, people shouldn't be penalised for four years.
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27-03-2019, 08:46   #30
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Turnout will be OK because of the two elections on the same day, it's not going to suffer from that
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