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27-05-2017, 14:10   #31
hot buttered scones
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Originally Posted by Murph_D View Post
I included that comment because I think a lot of people jump into P&D a little early in their marathon careers, and may not make it through the plan, never mind the marathon itself. It's not that it's particularly difficult, more that it assumes a certain level of base mileage and experience. The clue is in the title. It is not a beginners plan. It could be an improvers plan, but not until they have two or three successful marathon cycles behind them, in my opinion.

I was going to suggest the meno plan for you, but I see you've already come around to that way of thinking yourself. The flexibility is good for people with odd schedules. And it has some great sessions that, in my experience for marathons 2, 3 and 4, really helped me to understand what marathon training is all about - something you can then take into a plan like P&D. Meno designed the plan specifically for improvers and it's worked for a lot of people around here - in my case helping me get down to sub 3:30 from a 4-hour-plus debut.
I actually didn't know that the meno plan was designed specifically for improvers (I didn't do my research properly!!). I'd agree with you though that it would make more sense to tackle the meno plan before taking on P+D - even though I did it the other way around!! While I learned a lot about myself from P+D, I think I learned a lot more about marathon training during this cycle - I think I'll be better equipped to take on P+D for Dublin now.

Reading down through the thread I realise I haven't laid out my own PB's or marathon progression:

5k: 19:58 (06/16 - Clonpriest) - had a 5k split of 19:47 in a recent race though.
10k: 41:28 (04/17 - UCC Carmel Lynch)
10 mile: 1:08:53 (03/16 - Ballycotton)
Half: 1:31:52 (09/16 - Charleville)
25k: 1:50:32 (04/16 - Great Railway Run)

Marathons:
Dublin 2014: DNS - Injured by August, out for 6 weeks - too much, too far, too soon.

Cork 2015: 3:49:29 (Used a MyAsics plan - 4 days a week with the odd race as well - ranwell, with a negative split of nearly 10 minutes or so)

Dublin 2015: 3:38:39 (Used the 12 week McMillan Strava plan, and bombed after 20 miles. Goal was 3:30)

PB: Dublin 2016: 3:21:45 (Used 18 week P+D up to 55 plan, almost even splits, tough last 2 miles. Goal 3:22 )

Last edited by hot buttered scones; 27-05-2017 at 14:27.
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27-05-2017, 14:26   #32
hot buttered scones
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Quick question on the meno plan. Is there a particular reason the long runs are on a Sunday? I know HH IM2 was all about pace runs on Saturday followed by long on Sunday,but as this plan has the main sessions on Wednesdays I take it I can move the long run to Saturdays, followed by 4-5m easy on Sunday?
Couldn't tell you the reasons behind it as I only copied it from someone else, but if you see where I posted the original copy of the plan - in the explanations for each session there is a link to the original boards.ie post contained in the thread where the plan was first used. That thread really explains it all (Disclaimer - I've read most the explanations for the sessions, but not the whole thread)

I was going to say do your Wednesday run on Tuesday then to get the extra easy day in between, but actually think of it this way - The current plan has 2 easy days between the long run and the session and 3 easy days between the session and the long run. What you will have is 3 easy days between the long run and the session and 2 easy days between the session and the long run. I don't really know - looking at my log, more often than not I did it the way your proposing and I think I found the long runs tougher on those weeks. But the plan is fairly flexible in that you do the long run, the session and the recovery run and then make up the rest of the mileage yourself as it suits to get yuor to your weekly mileage

Also bear in mind that those Wednesday sessions are almost all 12 to 14 miles long themselves - so long enough runs themselves.

I'm just posting this based on my recent experience of having used the plan, so don't take this as gospel.

Personally I prefer to do my long runs on Sunday when work allows simply because there's less traffic and I have the roads to myself.
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27-05-2017, 14:36   #33
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Good thread idea, HBS.

Just a suggestion based on my own experience. I think you'll be fine with the 12-week version of P&D given you are coming off a recent marathon cycle. It's a bit more intense than the longer version which helps to keep things fresh in a multi-marathon year. Good luck with it - all the better if you can swing the 70 mile version.

Just kicking off a HM cycle myself, using one of the Hanson plans. Won't be targeting a marathon this year although will run Dublin for fun (mostly). May or may not have another go at Donadea 50k next year - good way to keep things going over winter, all the more so if not coming straight off a DCM cycle. That will most likely be a souped up version of P&D or perhaps one of the Daniels marathon plans.
I've just reread this post and missed a few thing the first time around. Thanks for the advice re: P+D. I was thinking something similar as yourself, but coming at it from a different direction - my thinking was that my endurance wouldn't need as much work having trained for a marathon already this year, so 12 weeks would be enough.
The more I look at the up to 70 plan, the more I start to think that it may be a bit too much. I'm now sort of wavering between that and maybe doing the up to 55 plan with an extra day of running maybe 5 or 6 miles easy to bring it up to 60, or doing the up to 70 plan, but reducing peak mileage to somewhere around 63-65 miles. The reason I was mixing the 12 and 18 week plans is that if I did this it fell perfectly for Charleville - but I could also do the 12 week plan with a buffer week to do a mini taper and recovery around Charleville too.
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27-05-2017, 14:43   #34
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Once again, I'm not going to use a direct plan although writing this makes me think I should. I want to start getting more involved with club training again so I'll probably try and fit those in with my schedule which will probably be based around Lydiard. Decent volume with alot of highend aerobic running. Mainly a diet of long runs and steady to MP runs mid-week.
This part of your post really caught my eye - I would know very little about Lydiard other than what I've read on the net. Is there a book you'd recommend reading, or is this stuff you've just picked up from other runners over the years?
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27-05-2017, 14:55   #35
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From reading the training logs, I can see there are plenty of people either training for marathons or intend to start training for an autumn marathon fairly soon. We have a Novices thread and a Sub 3 support thread, so why not a thread for those of us in between?

I think I may have come across a similar thread on this forum before, but rather then revive a zombie thread I thought I'd create a new one. (Mods: I hope that's ok)

I just thought this we be a good place for people to discuss what plans they're using, what their goals are for the long and short term, give a bit of support and advice etc. and hopefully create a bit of traffic.
Great idea for a thread, not sure I should be in this here though :-)
For the last week or two I can feel myself being sucked in. Reluctant to commit just yet.
Lots of unfinished business with the marathon, going to have a good think.
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27-05-2017, 15:42   #36
 
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This part of your post really caught my eye - I would know very little about Lydiard other than what I've read on the net. Is there a book you'd recommend reading, or is this stuff you've just picked up from other runners over the years?
Me personally, most of what I've picked up is from reading through tons of info on him but you have to be wary as there is 100 times more misinformation out there than truth. He wrote a good few books on his training but they are difficult enough to read through because of typos and misused terms. A good place to start would be healthy intelligent training by Keith Livingstone. One tip would be to throw any idea of paces out of your head when reading it as Lydiards training was based around effort, the books also don't describe plans but Lydiards Methodology. This was a guy with an individual based approach and who coached long before the invention of gps watches so it can be difficult for the modern runner to shake off those thoughts.

Basically if I was to sum it in short, Lydiard was a very high volume advocate with a tendency towards most of it being fast aerobic running. His thoughts were that the bigger the aerobic capacity, the higher the anaerobic potential. Even his 800m runners used to go through marathon conditioning early in the training cycle, running 100mpw at a strong aerobic pace during the base phase.
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27-05-2017, 16:38   #37
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Me personally, most of what I've picked up is from reading through tons of info on him but you have to be wary as there is 100 times more misinformation out there than truth. He wrote a good few books on his training but they are difficult enough to read through because of typos and misused terms. A good place to start would be healthy intelligent training by Keith Livingstone. One tip would be to throw any idea of paces out of your head when reading it as Lydiards training was based around effort, the books also don't describe plans but Lydiards Methodology. This was a guy with an individual based approach and who coached long before the invention of gps watches so it can be difficult for the modern runner to shake off those thoughts.

Basically if I was to sum it in short, Lydiard was a very high volume advocate with a tendency towards most of it being fast aerobic running. His thoughts were that the bigger the aerobic capacity, the higher the anaerobic potential. Even his 800m runners used to go through marathon conditioning early in the training cycle, running 100mpw at a strong aerobic pace during the base phase.
Thanks for that. I think I may have done a good bit of that lately - I've sort of developed an attitude of "it's easy pace if it feels easy" - I'd often only give the odd glance to my watch when running familiar route checking distance or HR mostly. I've done a lot less recovery paced runs in this cycle, but have noticed a bit of variation in the easy pace -I think I've really gotten to know what that effort should feel like, and the paces would have been at the faster end of my aerobic pace (I think). I think it suited me. Of course there was a bit of faster stuff - HMP, MP and a couple of progression runs but no fast intervals or V02 max sessions (maybe a few short strides or hill sprints). It did feel like I was doing heavy base training for a lot of it, but a couple of recent races have shown that it has made me faster. I think the lack of speedwork this time has made it easier for me to increase my weekly mileage and in fact I ran more miles than ever before without injury. I've seen far less of my physio than in any marathon training block before and it's mostly been for a sport massage and a bit of needling. If I'd have done some decent s+c I'd be in even better shape. It remains to be seen whether or not this has brought about any decent improvement in endurance - my long runs have been a bit difficult at times, which doesn't bode well, but that might be more related to fatigue or fuelling than fitness.

I might get that book for the upcoming holidays. I'm trying to work my way through Steve Magness at the moment, but it reads like a textbook so probably not the thing for lying by the pool!
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27-05-2017, 16:55   #38
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Couldn't tell you the reasons behind it as I only copied it from someone else, but if you see where I posted the original copy of the plan - in the explanations for each session there is a link to the original boards.ie post contained in the thread where the plan was first used. That thread really explains it all (Disclaimer - I've read most the explanations for the sessions, but not the whole thread)

I was going to say do your Wednesday run on Tuesday then to get the extra easy day in between, but actually think of it this way - The current plan has 2 easy days between the long run and the session and 3 easy days between the session and the long run. What you will have is 3 easy days between the long run and the session and 2 easy days between the session and the long run. I don't really know - looking at my log, more often than not I did it the way your proposing and I think I found the long runs tougher on those weeks. But the plan is fairly flexible in that you do the long run, the session and the recovery run and then make up the rest of the mileage yourself as it suits to get yuor to your weekly mileage

Also bear in mind that those Wednesday sessions are almost all 12 to 14 miles long themselves - so long enough runs themselves.

I'm just posting this based on my recent experience of having used the plan, so don't take this as gospel.

Personally I prefer to do my long runs on Sunday when work allows simply because there's less traffic and I have the roads to myself.
As the plan moves on, the Wednesday sessions become quite intense, and so do LR which add MP and Steady portions so I think Sunday is more about giving a good recovery time between what can be two intense Sessions. Shorter recovery may be ok at start, but accumulation over a full cycle could have a negative impact. I think I would bring Wed session forward to Tuesday if doing LR on Saturday, use Sunday as rest and start on Monday.
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27-05-2017, 17:18   #39
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As the plan moves on, the Wednesday sessions become quite intense, and so do LR which add MP and Steady portions so I think Sunday is more about giving a good recovery time between what can be two intense Sessions. Shorter recovery may be ok at start, but accumulation over a full cycle could have a negative impact. I think I would bring Wed session forward to Tuesday if doing LR on Saturday, use Sunday as rest and start on Monday.
I'll freely admit I'm no example to be following!! I've done the long runs on Tuesday with a session on Sunday and then another session on the following Wednesday and finished up with a long run on Sunday. I ran over the specified mileage and didn't take a rest day for nearly 4 weeks, by which time I was b0ll0xed. I've done long runs 6 days apart. It's all been one big experiment really. But an enjoyable one (for the most part) nonetheless, and a big learning experience. I had a habit of stressing if missed a run or didn't follow some plan out of a book to the letter, or even if a session didn't go to plan - without looking at the bigger picture. I picked the meno plan because I saw it as a good chance to get a bit of flexibility and experiment a bit. But then again I have work constraints, and if I had the choice I do the plan as scheduled - the weeks I did that it worked out better I think. You have the chance to get a decent easy run in on the Friday too if you want to up your mileage.
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27-05-2017, 18:39   #40
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I'll freely admit I'm no example to be following!! I've done the long runs on Tuesday with a session on Sunday and then another session on the following Wednesday and finished up with a long run on Sunday. I ran over the specified mileage and didn't take a rest day for nearly 4 weeks, by which time I was b0ll0xed. I've done long runs 6 days apart. It's all been one big experiment really. But an enjoyable one (for the most part) nonetheless, and a big learning experience. I had a habit of stressing if missed a run or didn't follow some plan out of a book to the letter, or even if a session didn't go to plan - without looking at the bigger picture. I picked the meno plan because I saw it as a good chance to get a bit of flexibility and experiment a bit. But then again I have work constraints, and if I had the choice I do the plan as scheduled - the weeks I did that it worked out better I think. You have the chance to get a decent easy run in on the Friday too if you want to up your mileage.
I suppose it's all a personal thing and you quickly learn what you can and can not do, it's a flexible plan that you can definitely move around or do as rolling sessions, if you don't get to bogged down with a rigid week, and just take the sessions as they come. Definitely room for more mileage if you want, but not for me up to now, I have been prone to injury as mileage increases,Just about working out how you recover from sessions and take approiate recovery to suit, plenty in the plan to keep you occupied .
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27-05-2017, 19:02   #41
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Curious about this too. Ran 4:17:23 - DCM 2016. That was via the novices thread, in combination with the HHN1 plan. I was thinking of using the same plan again, but am not sure if this is the best approach. On the other hand, it worked last year, if it ain’t broke and all that.

I’ve done the base plan in the graduates thread, plus the 5-10k section. Ran a 10k (not chipped, 54:30) on the 13th of May, took a rest week. Have been away, threw in a few short runs. iirc, advice I got a week or two before the 10k was perhaps to now review my paces. Obviously, I would like to knock the DCM time down a little. FD10 (last year was 1:32 something, fitness has since improved, I hope) and DCM are the only other races I've signed up for this year.

Whilst I am keen to start a new plan, and put some sort of shape on the summer, I do feel a little quite of my depth here.
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27-05-2017, 19:16   #42
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Curious about this too. Ran 4:17:23 - DCM 2016. That was via the novices thread, in combination with the HHN1 plan. I was thinking of using the same plan again, but am not sure if this is the best approach. On the other hand, it worked last year, if it ain’t broke and all that.

I’ve done the base plan in the graduates thread, plus the 5-10k section. Ran a 10k (not chipped, 54:30) on the 13th of May, took a rest week. Have been away, threw in a few short runs. iirc, advice I got a week or two before the 10k was perhaps to now review my paces. Obviously, I would like to knock the DCM time down a little. FD10 (last year was 1:32 something, fitness has since improved, I hope) and DCM are the only other races I've signed up for this year.

Whilst I am keen to start a new plan, and put some sort of shape on the summer, I do feel a little quite of my depth here.
Would the marathon plans in the graduate plan sheet not be an obvious progression for you having done the base and 5k-10k plan? I must ahve a look at that myself actually.
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27-05-2017, 19:23   #43
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Curious about this too. Ran 4:17:23 - DCM 2016. That was via the novices thread, in combination with the HHN1 plan. I was thinking of using the same plan again, but am not sure if this is the best approach. On the other hand, it worked last year, if it ain’t broke and all that.

I’ve done the base plan in the graduates thread, plus the 5-10k section. Ran a 10k (not chipped, 54:30) on the 13th of May, took a rest week. Have been away, threw in a few short runs. iirc, advice I got a week or two before the 10k was perhaps to now review my paces. Obviously, I would like to knock the DCM time down a little. FD10 (last year was 1:32 something, fitness has since improved, I hope) and DCM are the only other races I've signed up for this year.

Whilst I am keen to start a new plan, and put some sort of shape on the summer, I do feel a little quite of my depth here.

How comfortably did you run last year, did you race flat out or did you run within yourself, what are you interested in accomplishing this year. Faster Time or do you just want to run the distance.
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27-05-2017, 21:19   #44
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Would the marathon plans in the graduate plan sheet not be an obvious progression for you having done the base and 5k-10k plan? I must ahve a look at that myself actually.
Good point, had forgotten about those alright. Will see about mapping out some dates re the 14 week structure.

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How comfortably did you run last year, did you race flat out or did you run within yourself, what are you interested in accomplishing this year. Faster Time or do you just want to run the distance.
Nutshell version. Very happy with the first 10-11 miles, running with the 4:10 pacers. No issues. Decided to move ahead of them somewhere shortly after - felt like that was the only mistake I made last year. Not to say it was all sunshine and lollipops once I copped on after the mistake, but didn't feel like there were hairy moments. Would like get close to 4 hours, maybe that's overly optimistic and 4:07 would do.
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27-05-2017, 21:31   #45
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What amended version of P&D do you have?
I amended/butchered the 18 week P&D to suit my work/life pattern. I can send it onto you if you wish ?
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