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Equality of marriage and love

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I don't mean to ruffle your feathers boss, what with you having a drawer full of cards and everything,but with the industrial blue carpet and everthing it must be a nightmare to have to spend 8 hours a day cooped up like that. If I wasn't able to be out everyday in the fresh air meeting & greeting I could possibly see a situation where I might even become a non believer-perish the thought.

    8 hours is one third of the day. You seem to be assuming it's the entire day. Still plenty of time to get plenty of fresh air and meetings a plenty. Plenty!


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Looks like there is a somewhat more sensible Bishop in Ireland...even if he is retired

    http://www.thejournal.ie/sum-of-human-happiness-marriage-2128229-May2015/
    A RETIRED CATHOLIC bishop has said he disagrees with remarks by the Vatican’s top diplomat, that Saturday’s referendum result represents “a defeat for humanity”.

    Willie Walsh, the bishop emiritus of Killaloe, was asked about Cardinal Pietro Parolin’s reported comments by Joe Duffy this afternoon.

    The RTÉ presenter also asked if the cleric thought the result ‘added to the sum of human happiness’…

    “Yes, I’d have to say yes to that, in my view,” Walsh said.
    The bishop, earlier in the conversation, described the Vatican official’s remarks as “over the top”.

    Lack of action on issues like justice and poverty represented real “disasters for humanity,” Walsh said.

    “While most of us have more than we need, that there’s literally half the world in serious poverty,” he observed, adding:

    I’d love to see last week’s equality being the beginning of a real crusade for equality in other areas – both at home and across the world.

    Asked how he voted in the referendum, Walsh declined to answer – but said:

    I gave it a great deal of thought and then I voted according to my own conscience.

    In comments last night, the Vatican Secretary of State said “the Church must take account of this reality, but in the sense that it must strengthen its commitment to evangelisation”.

    I think that you cannot just talk of a defeat for Christian principles, but of a defeat for humanity.

    His comments contrast with the tone of remarks by Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin – who spoke at the weekend of the Church in Ireland needing a “new language” to connect with people.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Looks like the Vatican is going to get more upset about gay people closer to their home

    http://www.thejournal.ie/same-sex-marriage-italy-2127634-May2015/
    ITALIAN PUBLIC OPINION has moved decisively in favour of legally recognising same-sex couples after Ireland landmark referendum.

    The survey published by Italian daily La Stampa found that 51% of voters would support gay marriage in a country where the Catholic Church still wields considerable political influence.

    The power is slipping more and more, if it can slip this close to the Vatican then they are doomed anywhere else. This must scare the ****e out of them.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    and finally...I think this sort of shuts up the no side when it comes to their claims of receiving abuse when canvassing, they refused to allow any journalist to shadow them when canvassing.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kathy-sheridan-some-yes-campaigners-faced-subtle-shocking-bigotry-1.2226665

    But the fact is, however they cloaked their arguments, the thrust of the No campaign was to call into question the full humanity of its opponents. No one’s sexuality should define them but it lies at the immutable core of us. That’s what made this referendum different. It takes unusual restraint to debate that in the same spirit as the finer points of Grexit.

    So abuse was thrown around.

    On the Yes side, a deeply unthreatening canvasser of my acquaintance was called a c**t on three occasions. For some young, straight campaigners, it was the leafy areas that provided their first encounter with subtle, shocking bigotry.

    I don’t doubt that serious abuse was thrown at the No side too and it was partly why I requested permission to shadow canvassers from the Mothers and Fathers Matter campaign. This is a routine campaign request, rarely refused, and can provide useful insights into the level and nature of voter engagement.

    But I explained that I was also interested in reporting on the abuse allegedly being hurled at their campaigners. Our request – and that of all other journalists, I believe – was refused.

    Why would they refuse a request?
    Surely they'd like the media to backup their baseless claims?


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Was anyone listening to The Last Word just now? Cal Thomas is so frustratingly thick.
    I have given up getting annoyed by Cal Thomas on the basis that I fully believe he is a professional conservative.

    That is, he plays a conservative tune because that's what pays his bills, not because he has any particularly strongly-held belief. Everything he's asked, everything he discusses, he swings it around to something that's either anti-liberal, anti-Obama, or pro-Murica. He's so good at it, that it just flows off his tongue.
    "The Republicans did <X>". "Ah yes, but Clinton did <X> too and the Obama administration enabled <X>". "Isn't it free guns that did this Cal?". "But there are terrorists everywhere. How can you keep the peace without guns? The liberal agenda wants to take our guns away, but who's going to protect their little pink electric cars then?".

    It's just the same old lines trotted out. I suspect if you actually had to sit beside him at a dinner table, there'd be none of that talk at all, he'd be perfectly pleasant.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    seamus wrote: »
    It's just the same old lines trotted out. I suspect if you actually had to sit beside him at a dinner table, there'd be none of that talk at all, he'd be perfectly pleasant.

    He's just insufferable next to George Hook? I'd say there'd always be someone to get him going on a rant, if only to be top a***hole at the party. I shout at George, never mind Cal!

    Edit: Just saw it was the Last Word. Maybe he's worse with the more liberal Matt Cooper, but if he's worse than when he's with Hook then he'd be no dinner guest of mine :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭equivariant


    SW wrote: »
    Vatican calls Irish referendum a ‘defeat for humanity’



    'Defeat for humanity'? Well at least they had a measured response to the referendum. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    I am trying to imagine how dispiriting it must feel to be LGBT and Catholic and read something like this. So much for Franky's old "love the sinner but not the sin" schtick.

    My measured response to this: Cardinal Pietro Parolin, what a ****.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Vatican spokesman: Nope, I'm not going to clarify what he meant, but that other guy's right to say whatever it was he said

    I'm beginning to wonder if they're just making it up as they go along.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-stands-by-cardinal-s-remarks-on-referendum-1.2227805
    On the morning after Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, called the result of last weekend’s referendum a “disaster for humanity”, the Holy See was still standing by its man. Senior Vatican spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi not only confirmed that Cardinal Parolin had used these words but he also indicated that the Vatican was sticking by them, word for word.

    Pointing out that Cardinal Parolin had made his comment on the margins of a Vatican conference, Father Lombardi said that the Secretary of State had given his immediate reaction to the referendum result but that he had not had time or space to further elaborate his thoughts. Asked by The Irish Times if the Secretary of State would like to outline those thoughts in greater detail to the Irish public, Father Lombardi suggested that this would not be opportune just at the moment, in as much as such an explanation might generate further polemics and misunderstanding.

    Cardinal Parolin’s (60) hardline statement surprised Vatican observers, given that the Secretary of State, who was appointed by Pope Francis in August 2013, has tended to fly well below the polemics radar, leaving all the serious talking to his boss.
    An accomplished diplomat, who worked for seven years in the Secretariat of State before being appointed Papal Nunzio to Venezuela in 2009, Cardinal Parolin has thus far always seemed to be a byword for tact and discretion. There is little doubt, however, that his comments reflect the level of concern prompted in the Holy See by the result. Whilst Pope Francis himself might have chosen different words, he too obviously remains faithful to Catholic teaching that marriage can only be contracted by a man and woman.

    Ironically, the Pope’s own catechesis (teaching) to pilgrims at his Wednesday public audience in St. Peter’s Square on Wednesday morning dealt with the issue of the importance of an engagement as a preparation for marriage. Throughout a long analysis of engagement prior to marriage, the Pope consistently referred to marriage as a sacrament, a “lifelong commitment between a man and a woman”. The Pope ended his teaching by urging the faithful to pray for the Holy Family of Nazareth, Jesus, Joseph and Mary. For all that Francis has in the past used compassionate and welcoming words in relation to gays, that welcome does not extend to an acceptance of same sex marriage, something which does not form part of “God’s plan for mankind”.

    Both Cardinal Parolin and Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco, President of the Italian Bishops Conference (CEI), stressed, however, that the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, had been correct to call the vote a “social revolution”: “As such [a social revolution], the Church cannot not ask itself how it can improve its dialogue with Western culture...in this context, we believe in the family that is born out of the stable union between a man and a woman, a union potentially open to life [children] and one which constitutes an essential good for society and as such is not comparable to other forms of co-habitation...”, said Cardinal Bagnasco.

    Bishop Nunzio Galantino, secretary general of CEI, also called for dialogue, saying: “The margin of the Yes victory in Ireland obliges us all to take on board that Europe, and not just Europe, is undergoing an accelerated process of secularisation which touches on everything, including relationships. Faced with this reality, our response can be neither a stubborn refusal based on fear and arrogance nor an uncritical acceptance based on fatalism and retreat.”


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,033 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    robindch wrote: »
    Don't worry - there are plenty of compensations to the occasional day at the keyboard :)Must be a nightmare believing you'll spend eternity in a pit of flame if you don't believe exactly the right thing; being prudishly concerned at the sex lives of others; excusing or ignoring the appalling activities of the church; having to listen to a bunch of elderly, supposedly sexless men talking about sex; having to believe so much rubbish. And so on :rolleyes:


    Funnilly enough unlike yourself I don't have a pre occupation with religion or the hereafter nor am I remotely concerned with anyones sex life (bar my own).


  • Moderators Posts: 51,683 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Funnilly enough unlike yourself I don't have a pre occupation with religion or the hereafter nor am I remotely concerned with anyones sex life (bar my own).

    in that case, Interior Design & Decoration forum ---->



    :P

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    SW wrote: »
    in that case, Interior Design & Decoration forum ---->



    :P

    There's an interior design forum :eek:

    Bye bye godless heathens I'm heading for gayvana.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    From a German paper, it says "Those Irish are a disgrace to mankind!"

    CGDA81NUMAEw0mu.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    ninjaed!


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Links234 wrote: »
    From a German paper, it says "Those Irish are a disgrace to mankind!"

    CGDA81NUMAEw0mu.jpg

    So in short, what we're learned is no country gives a ****e what the Vatican thinks because nobody trusts them anymore :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Going Strong


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So in short, what we're learned is no country gives a ****e what the Vatican thinks because nobody trusts them anymore :D

    I think that's where the likes of Iona came a cropper. While a lot of people might still attend mass, there's a myriad of reasons why they do so - a sense of community, a faith that's more personal than doctrinal, a comforting sameness in a changing world etc.

    An Ionanist, sitting in mass can't see into the heart and minds of their fellow mass goers yet claims to speak for all of them.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,173 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Apparently, Dave was on US radio* going about gay storylines in soap operas, and he's also penned a piece for Breitbart...OK.

    *ETA - Family Research Council, yay.

    https://t.co/kf05AdaK3S


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 936 ✭✭✭JaseBelleVie


    No surprises that the Family Research Council is classified as an anti-gay hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. David Quinn should just emigrate and join up with them. Cos he and Iona aren't really wanted here.

    Or to quote Jack Nicholson: "Go sell crazy someplace else! We're all stocked up here!"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 936 ✭✭✭JaseBelleVie


    And, aw. The poor wuzzums. The media blocked his message! Twitter and Facebook were biased against. Let's be honest here, we forgot the real victim in this piece. Poor ickle David Quinn.

    What a repugnant man. Getting his ego stroked on American TV and sounding so bitter about getting destroyed in this referendum. Screw him and his ilk and let's hope they go extinct soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    http://www.newstalk.com/Referendum-result-makes-Irish-worse-than-pagans-says-senior-Vatican-cardinal


    this is a hoot
    Referendum result makes Irish worse than pagans, says senior Vatican cardinal
    Cardinal Raymond Burke was speaking at Oxford University

    A leading Catholic Church Cardinal has said Ireland is worse than pagans for legalising same-sex marriage.

    Cardinal Raymond Burke, of the United States, told the Newman Society at Oxford University’s Catholic Society, that the Yes vote in last weekend’s referendum was: “a defiance of God."

    “It’s just incredible,” he said, according to The Tablet. “Pagans may have tolerated homosexual behaviours, they never dared say this was marriage.”

    Cardinal Burke is currently the patron of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, having recently been moved there from a senior role at the Vatican.

    He has long espoused fiercely anti-gay views, once saying children should be kept away from gay relatives.

    “If homosexual relations are intrinsically disordered, which indeed they are as reason teaches us and also our faith, then what would it mean to grandchildren to have present at a family gathering a family member who is living [in] a disordered relationship with another person?”

    Burke has alleged some within the church are pushing a "gay-agenda".

    Burke’s comments come shortly after another senior Vatican cardinal, Pietro Parolin, called the vote “a defeat for humanity.”

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    'If homosexual relations are intrinsically disordered, which indeed they are as reason teaches us and also our faith'....?

    The Cardinal is well-named, I think.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So in short, what we're learned is no country gives a ****e what the Vatican thinks because nobody trusts them anymore :D

    I think it might be more accurate to say that most countries care little about what the Vatican says because by and large it makes not much difference to them; that says more about the degree of temporal power the Church exerts now compared to a few centuries ago than how much they are trusted, since I don't too many monarchs would have trusted them much back then either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Going Strong


    And, aw. The poor wuzzums. The media blocked his message! Twitter and Facebook were biased against. Let's be honest here, we forgot the real victim in this piece. Poor ickle David Quinn.

    What a repugnant man. Getting his ego stroked on American TV and sounding so bitter about getting destroyed in this referendum. Screw him and his ilk and let's hope they go extinct soon.

    He's in today's Irish Sh*trag, err, Independent, calling for Fianna Fail, that other has-been institution that nobody believes in anymore, to come and rescue the poor oppressed No-ers. Because, of course, being against SSM is only the tip of the iceberg really and all those who voted "No" share the same views all the way down the line as Dave does. Twat.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-quinn/michel-martin-should-talk-to-the-orphaned-conservative-voters-31262388.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,789 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Absolam wrote: »
    I think it might be more accurate to say that most countries care little about what the Vatican says because by and large it makes not much difference to them; that says more about the degree of temporal power the Church exerts now compared to a few centuries ago than how much they are trusted, since I don't too many monarchs would have trusted them much back then either.

    I think I may just have to take Absolam off my ignore list - not to bother trying to engage, but just so I can read some of his gems, as the comedy value is just too good to pass up on!

    As a comment on a German cartoon about child sex abuse by catholic priests, the intellectual effort shown here by Absolam in managing (deliberately I presume) to completely miss the point is truly awesome!

    (FYI, all posts are visible when reading the site while not logged in, which is how I saw this one.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    volchitsa wrote: »
    (FYI, all posts are visible when reading the site while not logged in, which is how I saw this one.)

    I tend to "view post" when Absolam is posting in isolation on a topic that isn't about abortion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,789 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Shrap wrote: »
    I tend to "view post" when Absolam is posting in isolation on a topic that isn't about abortion.

    Oh yeah, good idea, I hadn't even seen that.

    Thanks Shrap. I think. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,136 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    He's in today's Irish Sh*trag, err, Independent, calling for Fianna Fail, that other has-been institution that nobody believes in anymore, to come and rescue the poor oppressed No-ers. Because, of course, being against SSM is only the tip of the iceberg really and all those who voted "No" share the same views all the way down the line as Dave does. Twat.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-quinn/michel-martin-should-talk-to-the-orphaned-conservative-voters-31262388.html

    My favourite part:
    So where does that leave them? Fianna Fáil tried to look cool by hanging around with the cool kids, but the cool kids knew they were faking it.

    Even if Fianna Fáil had managed to look cool, it still would have availed them naught because they'd still look like pathetically slavish followers of fashion. Who wants to hang out with a trend-follower when you can hang out with the trend-setting instead?

    Apparently wanting everyone to live their lives in accordance with a 2,000 year old book, refusing to re-evaluate social changes to ensure people aren't treated equally, and basically wishing we were all back in the 1940's but obviously with online news columns, makes one a "trend-setter"


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Bad Horse wrote: »
    My favourite part:


    Apparently wanting everyone to live their lives in accordance with a 2,000 year old book, refusing to re-evaluate social changes to ensure people aren't treated equally, and basically wishing we were all back in the 1940's but obviously with online news columns, makes one a "trend-setter"

    Who the hell says 'cool kids'?
    That so totes uncool like.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The KKK must be kicking themselves for not adopting The Litigious One's ability of portraying himself as a victim and simultaneously sneering at anybody to the left of General Franco.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I think I may just have to take Absolam off my ignore list - not to bother trying to engage, but just so I can read some of his gems, as the comedy value is just too good to pass up on! As a comment on a German cartoon about child sex abuse by catholic priests, the intellectual effort shown here by Absolam in managing (deliberately I presume) to completely miss the point is truly awesome! (FYI, all posts are visible when reading the site while not logged in, which is how I saw this one.)
    I am still amused that you only ever do seem to see the posts that you imagine you can reply to all the same :D
    But since my comment was not actually on the cartoon, it was on Cabaals comment on Links234 cartoon, should I not engage with the comment just because the cartoon fits your narrative?
    Still never let a discussion get in the way of what looks like a good line, especially when it looks like you can go after the poster rather than the post again, eh Volchitsa?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭Merces


    He's in today's Irish Sh*trag, err, Independent, calling for Fianna Fail, that other has-been institution that nobody believes in anymore, to come and rescue the poor oppressed No-ers. Because, of course, being against SSM is only the tip of the iceberg really and all those who voted "No" share the same views all the way down the line as Dave does. Twat.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-quinn/michel-martin-should-talk-to-the-orphaned-conservative-voters-31262388.html



    That won't happen. Fianna Fail are smart enough to know that the majority of the No vote came from the older generation and they are not going to be around forever and their ranks won't be replenished as every generation becomes more liberal.


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