School patronage

Morag · 10-01-2013 12:52am

recedite wrote: »

I think I'd choose that one. The school uniforms should be nice and colourful.

What makes you think that?

Bannasidhe · 10-01-2013 1:14pm

ninja900 wrote: »

So much for the Examiner's pretence of being a national newspaper, they list all the Munster towns but not the areas in Dublin :rolleyes:

Now you know how us outside Dublin feel about RTE.

expectationlost · 03-02-2013 10:02am

Catholics must 'let go' of schools - Martin

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0201/breaking37.html

“We have been speaking about a greater pluralism in patronage but I sometimes feel that there exists within parts of our Catholic education system a hesitation to let go or to feeling that somehow Catholic patronage can provide within its own structures the necessary pluralism required in society.’’

Obliq · 03-02-2013 2:47pm

Interesting that! Archbishop Martin tells the Catholic Church and the state to cop on about patronage and that secular parents/children won't accept this denial of their rights. Is he actually a humanist in an archbishop's dress?!

expectationlost · 03-02-2013 3:04pm

Obliq wrote: »

Interesting that! Archbishop Martin tells the Catholic Church and the state to cop on about patronage and that secular parents/children won't accept this denial of their rights. Is he actually a humanist in an archbishop's dress?!

ah martin is treasure for secularist want to have church control 80% of schools not 90%

recedite · 03-02-2013 11:21pm

Martin is one of their "good guys". During the paedophile scandal exposés he was the only one of the top guys to show more concern for child welfare than for hiding/covering up the scandal. I think he is genuine.

robindch · 04-02-2013 11:31am

recedite wrote: »

Martin is one of their "good guys". During the paedophile scandal exposés he was the only one of the top guys to show more concern for child welfare than for hiding/covering up the scandal. I think he is genuine.

I'm inclined to agree -- (almost) everything he's said and done in respect of the pedophile scandals and the wider church has been honorable and fair. In this, he's been almost unique in the church which is no doubt why he appears to be treated with some chilliness by his fellow-bishops.

expectationlost · 04-02-2013 12:39pm

recedite wrote: »

Martin is one of their "good guys". During the paedophile scandal exposés he was the only one of the top guys to show more concern for child welfare than for hiding/covering up the scandal. I think he is genuine.

he' still a bishop in the church which carried out widespread abuse and corruption, don't have time for good cop bad cop.

lazygal · 08-02-2013 9:29am

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0208/366738-christian-brothers-control/

And so it begins, handy how the church can use state law when it suits it. Is anyone surprised.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-02-2013 10:16am

The state should de-fund the school. Put a stop to this nonsense.

Dades · 08-02-2013 10:45am

I'll seeing parallels between the Christian brothers and the Quinn family. :pac:

I love they way the use the trust as a third party. "The trust may require compensation". Reminds me of the catholic hospital lawyers in the US arguing they couldn't be sued because a foetus wasn't a life. Is there no end to this organisation's duplicity?

Well, if the government can ignore consitutional property rights already in 2013, maybe they can do it again.

kylith · 08-02-2013 11:40am

I have a couple of things they could say

1) Since we've been paying your teachers and funding the general running of the school for the past X years, I think you'll find that, in fact, you owe us money.

Or

2) How about we just knock that amount of money off of the amount of compensation you owe us for all the children who were abused in the care of the CBS?

Bannasidhe · 08-02-2013 11:49am

kylith wrote: »

I have a couple of things they could say

1) Since we've been paying your teachers and funding the general running of the school for the past X years, I think you'll find that, in fact, you owe us money.

Or

2) How about we just knock that amount of money off of the amount of compensation you owe us for all the children who were abused in the care of the CBS?

Or 'we' could rush through some piece of legislation at midnight which seizes RCC property in lieu of payment of debts - schools being the obvious choice as we have a use for them and with the property market as it is we'd never be able to off load those bloody great convents etc.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha -like that would ever happen.

robindch · 08-02-2013 12:12pm

Dades wrote: »

I love they way the use the trust as a third party.

The trust was set up by the Christian Brothers, for the protection of and benefit of, their properties and aims. From the ERT's history page:

Edmund Rice Trust wrote:

The Edmund Rice Schools Trust was an initiative of the Christian Brothers. A team under the leadership of the late Br. John Heneghan worked to investigate and produce the memorandum and articles of the company and the foundation. After a long period of discernment and consultation with all school partners the Characteristic spirit of our schools was agreed to focus upon five key elements. These were incorporated into our Charter. The Episcopal Commission granted approval for the formation of the Juridic Person and the Civil Company was established. The Company and Foundation began operation on 1st September 2008. The Edmund Rice Schools Trust is the Trustee body responsible for schools formerly under the Trusteeship of Christian Brothers.

Note that the Christian Brothers owed millions to their victims under the Residential Institutions Redress Board settlement, money which by and large has not been paid. Meanwhile, the assets of the Christian Brothers were stripped and transferred into the Edmund Rice Trust, making collection hard if not impossible, and the ERT is now demanding satisfaction from the state.

The total, sheer, blatant, open, naked hypocrisy is almost, but not quite, beyond belief.

Zamboni · 08-02-2013 2:55pm

I've been digesting this story all morning.
I am seething.
Currently trying to disband criminal thoughts running through my head on what I'd like to do to this list of people.

http://www.erst.ie/aboutus/our-people/

expectationlost · 08-02-2013 5:17pm

this via conor ryan irish examiner is how much cbs offered the state 127m http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/444521-brief-for-minister-quinn-ahead-of-july-2011.html

don't know who much they've paid yet

The Christian Brothers said while it has financial assets of about €50m, it will not be able to release €20m of its extra commitment for up to 15 years because of the downturn in the property market. Three sites it put on the market last year could not find a buyer.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/counting-the-cost-of-abuse-redress-209377.html 2012

robindch · 08-02-2013 5:49pm

Conor Ryan wrote:

The Christian Brothers said while it has financial assets of about €50m, it will not be able to release €20m of its extra commitment for up to 15 years because of the downturn in the property market. Three sites it put on the market last year could not find a buyer.

€50 million? That miserable figure does not include the €480 million worth of assets they stripped into the ESRT.

It's an enduring mystery to me why these orders are not hounded through the courts as multi-million euro swindlers.

lazygal · 08-02-2013 5:53pm

robindch wrote: »

€50 million? That miserable figure does not include the €480 million worth of assets they stripped into the ESRT.

It's an enduring mystery to me why these orders are not hounded through the courts as multi-million euro swindlers.

Maybe they taught the Quinn family a thing or two about asset stripping.

robindch · 08-02-2013 6:47pm

lazygal wrote: »

Maybe they taught the Quinn family a thing or two about asset stripping.

No doubt. The Quinns got caught.

expectationlost · 08-02-2013 7:00pm

of course why could not the other patronage bodies and the state jointly pay full price? it seems to be just these trust bodies citing endless difficulties and if only we coulds for delaying anything happening at all

recedite · 08-02-2013 7:26pm

The State chose to go after the Quinns and crack open their trust funds.
But when dealing with the religious orders, it chose to indemnify them against excessive compo claims ("excess" as used in insurance-speak)
The State has chosen to leave the trust funds alone.

lazygal · 08-02-2013 7:30pm

I remember when the compo deal was done by Michael Woods there was a lawyer on Prime Time who'd dealt with the church in Canada and the US after abuse and compensation deals. He said you cannot trust a word they say, they lawyer up and use every single civil law available to move money, hide assets and get out of promised compensation. He said they were the most nefarious, underhanded, single minded corporation he'd ever dealt with and said if he was advising the government he'd warn them that the church had probably already started asset hiding and stripping before the deal was even agreed. Looks like he was right.

expectationlost · 08-02-2013 9:21pm

recedite wrote: »

The State chose to go after the Quinns and crack open their trust funds.
But when dealing with the religious orders, it chose to indemnify them against excessive compo claims ("excess" as used in insurance-speak)
The State has chosen to leave the trust funds alone.

don't think the quinn is good example because before they went after them they conspired to save them too

expectationlost · 08-02-2013 9:23pm

and now you have competing interests

Basin Lane Community Education Action Group

Press Release
8 Feb 2013
Basin Lane residents appeal to Edmund Rice Schools Trust (ERST) to listen to the needs of the community in school building debate

(Dublin, Feb 8, 2013) Residents of Dublin 8’s Basin Lane are appealing to the Edmund Rice Schools Trust to listen to their appeal for the use of Scoil San Seamus to made into a community centre, offering support services such as school clubs, adult education and capacity building within the community.

The residents have been embarking on collecting as many signatures as possible from those that live in the Basin Lane area in order to show ERST, local Government and statutory agencies the need for a community space.

Contrary to media reports the local community understands that the schools were amalgamated to have a strong local school and not to facilitate another school in an area with dwindling role numbers. While we welcome educational choice in Ireland we feel the needs of our local community and its residents are paramount.

With high levels of unemployment we feel that we could facilitate support groups, government departments and statutory agencies to actively address the lack of supports in this area of need.

Phyllis Fitzgerald, a local mother and resident of Basin Lane said “we appeal to those in the decision making process to consider our calls for the use of Scoil San Seamus as a community centre. The area suffers from high unemployment, low education achievement, anti-social behaviour and poverty. We see this building as the first building block in raising a community from its knees and to help deliver and promote a more prosperous future and to help widen the horizons of our children. “

We hope the Edmund Rice Schools Trust embed a legacy in the community and one of which Edmund Rice would be proud off

a school should be used as a school, it could still be used in the afternoon for community activities

expectationlost · 18-02-2013 11:55pm

Church hands over portfolio valued at €41m http://t.co/PRgBkgb2 vid indo

and the doc itself Re: Properties transferring under the Indemnity Agreement, position at 31 December 2012 http://t.co/zG2rfhV2

wonders if there any strings attached with those deeds

recedite · 19-02-2013 12:34pm

Probably no strings attached, although some of the schools may be run by the VEC already? This may or may not be the school referred to in Terenure.
BTW €41M is 3% of the estimated cost to the state of redress so far, as quoted in that article; €1.4 Billion.
Nevertheless, paying up the 3% is still a welcome move.

Cabaal · 29-08-2013 4:12pm

Sorry to restart this thread but seems relevant to this thread

http://dublinpeople.com/article.php?id=2733&l=100#.Uh9cG7MkvGM.twitter

…it has emerged that there are not enough school places to cater for the growing number of families seeking an alternative to denominational education across the south of the city.
According to Educate Together CEO Paul Rowe, the Dublin 2, Dublin 4, Dublin 6, Dublin 8 and Dublin 10 areas all need new schools…

“Simply put, Dublin city needs more Educate Together schools. Evidence of growing parental demand is undeniable. Our schools and start-up groups are reporting that hundreds of children are being signed up to our already over-subscribed waiting lists.”
Mr Rowe said demand for school places was particularly acute in Dublin 2 and Dublin 8.

RainyDay · 29-08-2013 5:24pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Sorry to restart this thread but seems relevant to this thread

...Mr Rowe said demand for school places was particularly acute in Dublin 2 and Dublin 8.

Though the RTE News report on the new ET school in Portobello last night emphasised that they still had some places available for this year!

recedite · 29-08-2013 7:15pm

I saw the RTE news report, and the school principal was there desperately unloading furniture and doing carpentry work to try and get the classrooms ready in time, in a temporary building. From the news report there is apparently a vacant ex-christian brothers school up the road which they were expecting to move into, but the trust fund that owns it has been haggling with dept of education for 10 months and refuses to let them into it.

Its an absolute disgrace. These are the same b'stards who are refusing to pay up their full compensation liabilities to the govt. redress board.

I'm not surprised there are places available; some parents would have started their kids elsewhere because of all the uncertainty.

expectationlost · 29-08-2013 7:46pm

the one recedite is referring to

Consultation process over schools' inclusivity
http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2013/0828/20428514-consultation-process-over-schools-inclusivity/

this is really insidious the priest claiming the community is holding him back

although the old film censor building doesn't look too bad as temporary school.

todays report about 71,000 new kids entering school
http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2013/0829/20429100-school-days-beckon-for-71000-new-students/

School patronage

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