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10-10-2017, 16:12   #436
dubhthach
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Well we aren't far off the medical grade full genome for about $1,000. What I will say is that many tests that are available are 'low' for the exact reason that they need to be to attract people to them. Of course over time the cost of tests do come down.

But as a comparison I got my Y-Chromosome sequence couple of years ago for about $700, a number of other men in my genetic cluster did the same as a result it's possible to map out the shared mutations and branches in the lineage:



Black can be an angliscation for the same name in Irish that gave us Duffy (Ó Dubhthaigh eg. descendant of Dubhthach), of course what's interesting is that the three individuals with surname Black (Moore is case of surname change, ancestor was surnamed Black) all probably share a common ancestor in the early 18th century in North America, this ancestor had spilt from my own line probably during the middle ages, as a result they have a number of mutations that I don't carry.

Fisher (who has matched called Salmon -- both angliscations of Ó Bradáin potentially) in comparison spilt alot further back, probably during the early medieval period (5th-8th century), he shows up as a match for myself at only 67 STR's (not at either 37 or 111).

At the moment we are awaiting on another match bearing the surname Dowie (Dowey is a Donegal angliscation of Ó Dubhthaigh) to get his results, what's interesting about him is his parents were from Antrim (and Presbytrian to boot!). It will be interesting to see how he clusters as he's closer to them at 37,67,111 STR's than he is to myself.

To give another example, here is a tree built out of BigY results from men with origins in west of Ireland. The McManus family is historically noted as a branch of the O'Connor's of Connacht:



The four McManus kits on extreme left share a common ancestor who lived in colonial SE USA in the 1770's (he's down as a 'patriot') unsurprisingly they share 2 unique genetic markers not found in the next McManus kit. Some analysis actually puts the spilt between the two lines at about 600 years.

Stagpoole line is originally from west Galway (though surname is of Norman origin usually associated with Limerick). What's interesting about that kit is he shares at least two unique genetic markers with kit bearing the surname Connor (recent BigY not on that tree), they thus share a branch that is 'upstream' of the McManus men (eg. their lineage spilt first). All these inidividuals are close matches to a kit that belongs to a near relative of the current 'O'Conor Don'. The implication is that there is a good possibility that the DNA is actually backing up the historical genealogies when it comes to the branching of the McManus family from the O'Connor's during the 13th/14th century (they claim descent form Maghnus Ua Conchobhair d.1181). The current estimate is that the common ancestor of the McManus men with Stagpoole (and Connor individual) is about 1000 years ago

This hints that the Stagpoole individual might be a result of surname change at some stage (he has several other O'Connor matches as well as a McDermott match who haven't done advanced testing).

Of course getting people with deep lineages to do advance testing can provide an anchor line, so for example Baron Inchiquin (the 32nd great-grandson of Brian Boru) did BigY testing, his lineage thus provides a baseline for mutations among matching men bearing surname O'Brien (and other Dál gCais surnames)

Last edited by dubhthach; 10-10-2017 at 16:19.
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10-10-2017, 19:42   #437
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When I look at the Munster Irish, I see 6 sub communities but the 6 are just paragraphs of info about different periods of migration.
I'm sure that you're probably following the steps that I gave but I'm just going to include a full screenshot of the page you see before seeing the communities and the page showing the communities in case I'm not explaining it clearly enough. I've come across people posting about genetic communities that have a lot more features in yours than mine so it might just not be available to everyone. It's a shame that the same features don't seem to be available to everyone.

All of the sub-groups of the main Genetic community has the same history. They don't have any unique details given to them. You also can't see your likelihood of a connection to the sub-group is (it used to though as North Connacht was 60% and Galway was 20% for me) and you can't see what number of matches share this community with you.

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Originally Posted by dubhthach View Post
Stagpoole line is originally from west Galway (though surname is of Norman origin usually associated with Limerick). What's interesting about that kit is he shares at least two unique genetic markers with kit bearing the surname Connor (recent BigY not on that tree), they thus share a branch that is 'upstream' of the McManus men (eg. their lineage spilt first). All these inidividuals are close matches to a kit that belongs to a near relative of the current 'O'Conor Don'. The implication is that there is a good possibility that the DNA is actually backing up the historical genealogies when it comes to the branching of the McManus family from the O'Connor's during the 13th/14th century (they claim descent form Maghnus Ua Conchobhair d.1181). The current estimate is that the common ancestor of the McManus men with Stagpoole (and Connor individual) is about 1000 years ago

This hints that the Stagpoole individual might be a result of surname change at some stage (he has several other O'Connor matches as well as a McDermott match who haven't done advanced testing).

Of course getting people with deep lineages to do advance testing can provide an anchor line, so for example Baron Inchiquin (the 32nd great-grandson of Brian Boru) did BigY testing, his lineage thus provides a baseline for mutations among matching men bearing surname O'Brien (and other Dál gCais surnames)
It is very interesting what these Y-DNA tests can reveal if enough people in a group are willing to pay for the Big Y. They've done the same for the Ui Mhaine Kellys by getting the Chief of the name to carry out the test. Based on his pedigree going back centuries it's possibly to determine what common ancestor is shared with the Count if a person matches with these Kellys. They are trying to get other Kellys with a known pedigree to test too so that the main Kelly branches would be covered. I never knew that there was a pedigree going back to Brian Boru. It's amazing that some families did keep these pedigrees going back so far.
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10-10-2017, 20:31   #438
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I just did an autosomal test, looking for relatives descended from the folk who left in the 19th century. I have a paternal great uncle who disappears after reporting his father's death in 1902, so I was hoping to find some trace of him, but nothing so far.

So far I have found someone related to my mother's aunt and another person for whom the common ancestor is my great great great grandfather. Both sides can document the link, so that was kind of exciting. Even more so, the 'other side' can trace themselves back to New Amsterdam, so they are practically American royalty.

I have a number of DNA cousins to go through and 'prove' as paper cousins, but I am finding it very interesting so far. The DNA is great for insisting there is a link, I just need to find it. Strategic testing of other family members is letting me sort out the matches a bit.
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10-10-2017, 22:48   #439
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So I see those links too but they just manifest as views of voyages from Munster to various places - waves of emigration. It doesn't sub-divide into people who share that group with me. I also see a number 5 plus a list of my own direct ancestors with links to Munster.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really see the use of genetic communities at all. It's just nice graphics.
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10-10-2017, 23:23   #440
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So I see those links too but they just manifest as views of voyages from Munster to various places - waves of emigration. It doesn't sub-divide into people who share that group with me. I also see a number 5 plus a list of my own direct ancestors with links to Munster.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really see the use of genetic communities at all. It's just nice graphics.
Yes I can see those migrations too but I only see those when I click straight into my genetic community instead of clicking to View All first.

I see my overall Connacht genetic community and migrations from there when I click the name of the community indicated by the red arrow in the picture.

I can see all of the communities in the world and then by clicking into my own community from there shows my subgroups by clicking into View All indicated by the green arrow.

I'm pretty sure that at this stage I'm being more of an annoyance than a help but hey I've gotta try anyway.
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10-10-2017, 23:32   #441
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Ok - I see what you're at now. Too tired to play with it properly though. I'll review tomorrow.
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12-10-2017, 09:41   #442
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Originally Posted by srmf5 View Post
It is very interesting what these Y-DNA tests can reveal if enough people in a group are willing to pay for the Big Y. They've done the same for the Ui Mhaine Kellys by getting the Chief of the name to carry out the test. Based on his pedigree going back centuries it's possibly to determine what common ancestor is shared with the Count if a person matches with these Kellys. They are trying to get other Kellys with a known pedigree to test too so that the main Kelly branches would be covered. I never knew that there was a pedigree going back to Brian Boru. It's amazing that some families did keep these pedigrees going back so far.
Indeed and what's interesting is the dating for the Y-Chromosome haplogroups that the Kelly's fall into. All the men in this genetic cluster with surname Kelly who have done BigY appear to belong to a 'clade' that began to expand in the 13th century, which is interesting considering the De Burgh invasion of Connacht in mid 13th century.

Here's an interesting blog post about BigY testing:

http://ultimatefamilyhistorians.blog...e-dna-can.html

In that case the individuals closest BigY match (different surname) probably shares a common ancestry with the blogger during the 14th-15th century.
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12-10-2017, 18:28   #443
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Indeed and what's interesting is the dating for the Y-Chromosome haplogroups that the Kelly's fall into. All the men in this genetic cluster with surname Kelly who have done BigY appear to belong to a 'clade' that began to expand in the 13th century, which is interesting considering the De Burgh invasion of Connacht in mid 13th century.

Here's an interesting blog post about BigY testing:

http://ultimatefamilyhistorians.blog...e-dna-can.html

In that case the individuals closest BigY match (different surname) probably shares a common ancestry with the blogger during the 14th-15th century.
Yes I had noticed that alright. Everyone in the Ui Mhaine group seems to descend from a man that died in the 1200s. I suppose it's possible that the other lines might have died out or just not have tested yet. The 1200s is far back enough in fairness I suppose. What would you think that the reason for this is or how might the Burkes have affected this?

Thanks for that link. It was an interesting read.
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14-10-2017, 16:08   #444
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Ok - I see what you're at now. Too tired to play with it properly though. I'll review tomorrow.
It's also possible to know the names of these communities when viewing your DNA matches. You can click on 'Genetic communities' as a filter. When you 'select genetic community', it gives the overall communities and the smaller sub-communities to choose from in a drop-down box.
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14-10-2017, 16:14   #445
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Not in my DNA results. Ancestry shows two genetic communities but clicking shows no drop-down menu of smaller sub-communities on either one.
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14-10-2017, 16:17   #446
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Not in my DNA results. Ancestry shows two genetic communities but clicking shows no drop-down menu of smaller sub-communities on either one.
I'm referring to the DNA matches section.
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14-10-2017, 16:42   #447
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Another way of seeing the genetic communities in which you are placed is to go to DNA Results Summary--> View All DNA Matches. At the top of your match list, click on Genetic Communities to filter by those. Only the genetic communities and subgroups to which you belong will appear in the dropdown.

I think it can be very useful. If for example you had one grandparent from Belfast and one from Galway, your should appear in at least Ulster Irish and Connacht Irish and when you filter your matches, you can examine those two sets separately.

EDITED TO ADD: While I was thinking through all that srmf5 said the same thing.
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17-10-2017, 22:18   #448
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You realise that article is 2 years old?

Where did you see about insisting on a DNA test? Can you link to it please?
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17-10-2017, 23:16   #449
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I believe that it is an exact science, but one has to spend a considerable amount of cash to get the ‘right’ answer. I think that too many people put too much faith (hope?) in what DNA will do for their genealogy and ‘walk’ into DNA without fully understanding the implications. When I took the FTDNA 37marker Y-DNA test I thought I would discover something new. No such luck, Each of the 17 ‘close’ matches has a different surname, none is mine. I’m the only one in the entire database with that surname thus the result is inconclusive. Now the suggestion is that I upgrade to a more sophisticated (& much more expensive) test.

Ancestry’s autosomal test shows me to be Munster Irish. No big surprise , when twelve of my 16 gggrandparents are from there with typical / common Munster names. I got just one close match, we know each other/meet periodically so that gave me nothing. I’ve two third cousins listed – their names are unknown in my quite comprehensive tree, neither has been online since March & April of this year.



People also underestimate the amount of time required to learn the science of the results. The advertising by DNA companies creates a very high expectation, but in reality a successful outcome requires a good understanding of DNA and frequently depends on others who have tested, have done some geno research and most importantly who bother to respond to emails! Hopefully the BTOP lectures (See ‘Events’ thread) will shed some additional light.
Have you tried gedmatch and if so did you find any close matches there?
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18-10-2017, 09:38   #450
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Have you tried gedmatch and if so did you find any close matches there?
Yes. These are my close matches

Largest segment = 30.3 cM
Total of segments > 7 cM = 53.8 cM
2 matching segments
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.0

Followed by
Largest segment = 17.1 cM
Total of segments > 7 cM = 30.6 cM
2 matching segments
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.4


The first is living in Ireland, has no tree and I suspect is descended from a sibling of my paternal greatgrandmother.

The second, in the USA, has a tree, responded to email and our common ancestor is possibly my maternal greatgreatgreat grandfather born about 1800.
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