Heavyweight Boxing

squinn2912 · 23-07-2017 2:24pm #1

What do you guys make of the heavyweight scene at the moment? For me it's just incomplete without Fury. I see he's flat out on instagram this week and looks like he's lost considerable weight. I can see him fighting before the end of the year and if he's hungry enough then I think he takes AJ in 2018.
Any opinions on Parker vrs Hfury?
I love the Wilder Ortiz fight. I think Ortiz will win that one but at last Deontay is stepping up in class and defending against a live challenger.

snowflaker · 23-07-2017 2:49pm

Has he got his licence back???

squinn2912 · 23-07-2017 3:32pm

Not yet but cloud of mystery surrounding that anyhow. If Lucas Browne and Pov can get back in a couple of months then I'm sure he will too

Morrison J · 23-07-2017 7:17pm

Fury the best of an ok bunch.

Question marks over Ortiz given his age but I rate him and think he'll destroy Wilder.

Joshua answered a lot of question marks against Wlad. Would prob rank him as second best in the division but I think I fancy Ortiz to beat him so 2/3rd.

Fancy Hughie to beat Parker in a close fight now it's in London. Should have the advantage on the cards.

squinn2912 · 23-07-2017 11:26pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Fury the best of an ok bunch.

Question marks over Ortiz given his age but I rate him and think he'll destroy Wilder.

Joshua answered a lot of question marks against Wlad. Would prob rank him as second best in the division but I think I fancy Ortiz to beat him so 2/3rd.

Fancy Hughie to beat Parker in a close fight now it's in London. Should have the advantage on the cards.

Yea it's only ever ok though but the circus surrounding it is ridiculous

Wilder is hard to predict I'm really looking forward to that fight.

I think Parker but if Hughie wins that I'll be well impressed. Very young to be a champ.

HigginsJ · 24-07-2017 9:59am

Fury is a joke, I'd imagine his version of flat out is different to most peoples. He seemed pretty unbothered about coming back with his comments last week; "“My time was two years ago. If I come back there will be an announcement, but if I don’t then goodbye.”"

I think there has to be more to him not having his license back than meets the eye. How someone who has ballooned up to 25 stone would cope with dropping the bones of 10 stone and react to being hit by a top HW is also debatable. If he was serious he would lose the weight, take 4-5 tune up fights over 18-24 months and then look for a title fight. If he comes back it'll be for an AJ paycheck and he will be out after that, back to his fat, coked up lifestyle.

As for the actual HW's that we should be talking about right now, AJ has done the most to date so deserves to be thought of as number 1. I would say Klit is still probably number 2 but will probably retire after AJ 2.

Wilder would be the best of the rest for me, Ortiz is a good fight for him, a win there sets up a super fight between Wilder and AJ. If they could let that stew for 12-18 months while they knock-out every other contender it could be a mega fight from a financial standpoint.

I'd be very doubtful Parker is at that level, has looked pretty ordinary anytime I have seen him. There are a couple of young Olympians who have turned pro recently (A French and English lad, names escape me) & a fit and focused Haye would be a wild card but all in all it is a relatively poor division still.

HigginsJ · 26-07-2017 8:33pm

Fury seems to have announced his retirement, again, from boxing today.

normanoffside · 26-07-2017 8:36pm

HigginsJ wrote: »

Fury seems to have announced his retirement, again, from boxing today.

Seems to be a reaction to Peter Fury and Hennessy talking to David haye about a fight with Hughie should he beat Parker.
I'd actually noticed a bit of niggle there previously when Tyson was all pally with Parker.

squinn2912 · 27-07-2017 12:41am

All a game?
I'm certain we will see Tyson back but I only hope it is as he was and not just in it for the payday. If he fights AJ straight off then payday but 2 tune ups means biz

Maravilla33 · 27-07-2017 8:25am

Would rate AJ as the best of what is an ordinary enough bunch.

I like Wilder but he's not really a boxer is he? He's in great shape which is a start for a HW these days but he is very limited. I'd hope you could only go so far by being in shape and wind milling and would fancy AJ if they met. Better, bigger and more accurate puncher. He's been in with better competition and shown some heart whereas Wilder is pretty untested in this regard. Would still be a great match up and one I hope to see.

Fury cracks me up and on his day could beat any of them but he seems to have lost it. He doesn't have the pop to deter him and I cant see AJ not getting to him over 12 rounds. Fury's chin still a question mark and AJ's power is real..

The rest are a bit meh. Ortiz has the skills but is getting on. Haye the same. Parker is average. Wlad possibly is the next best but cant see him turning the tables on AJ. So having been skeptical of AJ for years he's now top of the tree for me.

On a side note would love to see any of them slap Bellew around.

squinn2912 · 27-07-2017 6:19pm

I agree mainly, excellent comment.

I can't have AJ but he is the top man. He'd ko wilder who will continue to duck him for at least another year. That said AJ certainly isn't underrated. Beating a 40 year old Wlad who let him off the hook doesn't make him a great but he was very impressive. Wlad owned the division for a decade but since Lennox retired it hasn't been great.
Agree about Fury. Peak he beats them all but he's lost the plot. It's a shame.
What do you make of Millar and Dubois?

Burial. · 27-07-2017 7:42pm

Fury will definitely be 'back'. Whether that's a good thing or not I am not sure. He clearly has a lot of mental health issues. Of course I'd like to see him back but only if his mind is healthy and he's not coming back to get himself out of debt and feed a drug habit.

squinn2912 · 27-07-2017 11:16pm

Yea it's documented that he's had depression but I think there's a large amount of couldn't be bothered about him. Maybe that's harsh and as I say I do acknowledge that he's had problems but we all do that's life. Suck it up and do some good. I'd love to see him back and on it.
I agree with you he will box again but hard to see him have the speed or aura either. Look at Ali or Tyson when they came back after inactivity. It's true of lesser lights too like Haye

walshb · 27-07-2017 11:20pm

Ali had quite a successful career post Vietnam..

Fury out too long now and in dreadful shape..

He gets bombed out of it by AJ and Wilder should he make a comeback..

squinn2912 · 27-07-2017 11:27pm

Oh of course yea but he wasn't anything like he had been. The speed, dancing and humiliating ball comers was gone. He did show limited amounts of that but he showed grit and an ability to get hit and recover to win.

AJ yes but not sure about wilder. Could actually see that fight being made. Wilder would want the soft fight

selectamatic · 27-07-2017 11:50pm

In all honesty though this talk of peak fury gets to me sometimes I don't like the guy as a boxer or as a man however I used to, but that said I'm more than willing to give him credit where I think it's due.

But sometimes it seems people refer to peak fury almost in the same way someone might refer to peak Mike Tyson ie. A 4-5 year spell. Where in actual fact the only time I've been remotely impressed was on one particular night.

So is his peak confined to one night?

He weighed 17 stone something against wlad and was by his standards in mighty shape he also had his fight plan and implemented it but above all stuck to it. He used all of his attributes to the best of their ability. But truth be told the stars kinda all really aligned for him, wlad put in the worst performance I've seen from him in a long time. And coughed up his belts without so much as a whimper.

Tbh some (in fact many) might disagree but for me that took away from furys performance. When it's looked at on paper what fury achieved was outstanding: dethroned the top dog in his own back yard but in the cold harsh light of reality was it really that amazing?

From what I've seen of fury and I've seen a lot, followed him right from the get go, through his ch5 days and seen him live too and believe it or not I was a big fan at the begining when I believed he'd develop more hand speed and a touch more pop in his jab but as time wore on my interest faded. The doubt around the ped's is another big detractor for me.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I really do believe the fury we've seen in 96% of his pro fights would be soundly beaten by AJ and probably beaten by wilder and maybe Ortiz. The fury from the wlad fight is the other 4% of his career. If he performed like this he may beat wilder would most likely out point Ortiz but I still wouldn't see him keeping AJ at bay for a full 12 rounds.

Maravilla33 · 28-07-2017 8:08am

squinn2912 wrote: »

What do you make of Millar and Dubois?

TBH I haven't seen a whole lot of either of them. HW scene has been dire for a good few years and only getting back into it now. I've read the whole Dubois dropping AJ thing but hard to judge him after 4 fights. Millar's record doesn't look great after 19 fights?

Either of them worth getting excited about?

walshb · 28-07-2017 8:35am

Wlad took nothing away from Fury's performance. Both performed sh1t from what I saw..

squinn2912 · 28-07-2017 9:44am

selectamatic wrote: »

In all honesty though this talk of peak fury gets to me sometimes I don't like the guy as a boxer or as a man however I used to, but that said I'm more than willing to give him credit where I think it's due.

But sometimes it seems people refer to peak fury almost in the same way someone might refer to peak Mike Tyson ie. A 4-5 year spell. Where in actual fact the only time I've been remotely impressed was on one particular night.

So is his peak confined to one night?

He weighed 17 stone something against wlad and was by his standards in mighty shape he also had his fight plan and implemented it but above all stuck to it. He used all of his attributes to the best of their ability. But truth be told the stars kinda all really aligned for him, wlad put in the worst performance I've seen from him in a long time. And coughed up his belts without so much as a whimper.

Tbh some (in fact many) might disagree but for me that took away from furys performance. When it's looked at on paper what fury achieved was outstanding: dethroned the top dog in his own back yard but in the cold harsh light of reality was it really that amazing?

From what I've seen of fury and I've seen a lot, followed him right from the get go, through his ch5 days and seen him live too and believe it or not I was a big fan at the begining when I believed he'd develop more hand speed and a touch more pop in his jab but as time wore on my interest faded. The doubt around the ped's is another big detractor for me.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I really do believe the fury we've seen in 96% of his pro fights would be soundly beaten by AJ and probably beaten by wilder and maybe Ortiz. The fury from the wlad fight is the other 4% of his career. If he performed like this he may beat wilder would most likely out point Ortiz but I still wouldn't see him keeping AJ at bay for a full 12 rounds.

Hmm to be fair he had been effective and got the job done up until then with an ugly unorthodox style. What age was he by that time 25/26? We should be looking at the peak now with 3-4 defenses (presuming he'd win the rematch no guarantee there) and AJ would be calling him out. Instead he got stripped and messed up and donkeys like Charles Martin and Parker took full advantage of a window

squinn2912 · 28-07-2017 9:47am

Maravilla33 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

What do you make of Millar and Dubois?

TBH I haven't seen a whole lot of either of them. HW scene has been dire for a good few years and only getting back into it now. I've read the whole Dubois dropping AJ thing but hard to judge him after 4 fights. Millar's record doesn't look great after 19 fights?

Either of them worth getting excited about?

Yea that's the rumour that won't go away. I know very little about him that's why I'm asking. Done well so far and very young so he needs managed. Nah don't think millar has much

selectamatic · 28-07-2017 1:54pm

walshb wrote: »

Wlad took nothing away from Fury's performance. Both performed sh1t from what I saw..

It wasn't great viewing that's for sure but it was fury's best performance by a country mile.

squinn2912 wrote: »

Hmm to be fair he had been effective and got the job done up until then with an ugly unorthodox style. What age was he by that time 25/26? We should be looking at the peak now with 3-4 defenses (presuming he'd win the rematch no guarantee there) and AJ would be calling him out. Instead he got stripped and messed up and donkeys like Charles Martin and Parker took full advantage of a window

Prior to the wlad fight Fury's effectiveness is for me confined to getting wins against opponents who were inferior in almost every aspect behind an awkward yet far from impenetrable outside fighting style.

And yet despite this there are numerous occasions where he was caught flush with shots on both the head and body and where he showed a tendency to get sucked into brawls where his incompatibilities with close proximity fighting became very apparent.

As you said we should now be looking at a peak fury who has kicked on from the wlad fight but in reality we're not and that is all Tyson Fury's own doing.

That for me is enough to find having Tyson fury as the number 1 heavyweight on anyones "list" nonsensical.

walshb · 28-07-2017 2:01pm

selectamatic wrote: »

It wasn't great viewing that's for sure but it was fury's best performance by a country mile.

Really?

I mean he landed eff all shots. If you are saying that him being big and awkward and clumsy and making it difficult for the equally big and awkward and clumsy Wlad showing, was Fury' best performance by a contry mile...?

selectamatic · 28-07-2017 2:17pm

walshb wrote: »

Really?

I mean he landed eff all shots. If you are saying that him being big and awkward and clumsy and making it difficult for the equally big and awkward and clumsy Wlad showing, was Fury' best performance by a contry mile...?

I'm afraid I would. That's taking into account wlad was or at least was supposed to be a huge step up in class.

Comfortably getting a tko against the likes of Joey abell isnt worth much imo.

And performances like struggling to land anything effective other than jabs on a stationary Kevin Johnson or getting caught flush and put on the canvas by a blown up cruiserweight like Cunningham even given fury went onto win, don't stand out as a good in my mind.

Is there really any performance by fury against a half decent opponent that's comparable or better than the wlad win?

Both chisora fights were pretty bad and even though chisora's corner pulled him in the second fight late on he wasn't exactly ready to go or taking serious damage. He was just eating jabs and well behind on the cards and carrying on was pointless. My memory is slightly clouded regarding the fight but didn't Derek land some good shots particularly a few body shots early on in the fight. Again it just wasn't that great by fury he got the win but failed to impress. Story of his career really.

selectamatic · 28-07-2017 3:07pm

pac_man wrote: »

In terms of his best performance I think that Christian Hammer fight should be mentioned. He was really light on his feet that night. Hammer has since gone on to beat Erkan Teper and David Price.

True he looked pretty decent that night and stuck to his fight plan too.

But is or was Hammer that good really. His victory over teper is a decent achievement but it was pretty close. He was promising enough early on in his career but his first real test coming in the form of wach saw him lose well. And I wouldn't give any self respecting HW contender much credit for beating 2017 David price.

squinn2912 · 29-07-2017 12:28am

Wlad didn't box well but that hadn't happened to him in what 13 years? Fury was the first in a long long time who Wlad couldn't bully or intimidate.
I guess we have to ask ourselves was it a buster douglas moment or a more credible type of upset. I think the latter. Fury toyed with him and there's no getting away from that.

squinn2912 · 30-07-2017 10:12am

Anybody see the Millar Washington fight? Was that a good stoppage and does it now put Millar at elite level?

Sweet Science · 04-08-2017 3:06pm

Joshua still Mr Nice Guy

Amir Khan has gone all out on twitter about his wife and AJ

dinorebel · 04-08-2017 3:12pm

Sweet Science wrote: »

Joshua still Mr Nice Guy

Amir Khan has gone all out on twitter about his wife and AJ

At a guess his accounts been hacked again.

bunderoon · 04-08-2017 3:14pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

What do you guys make of the heavyweight scene at the moment? For me it's just incomplete without Fury. I see he's flat out on instagram this week and looks like he's lost considerable weight. I can see him fighting before the end of the year and if he's hungry enough then I think he takes AJ in 2018.
Any opinions on Parker vrs Hfury?
I love the Wilder Ortiz fight. I think Ortiz will win that one but at last Deontay is stepping up in class and defending against a live challenger.

Heavyweight boxing has been 'incomplete' for the last 15 years!

squinn2912 · 07-08-2017 8:17am

I guess so but incomplete in the sense that what is there isn't taking part.
What are the thoughts on Wlad calling it a day? I think it's the right decision in the end. I think he threw it away vrs AJ who deserves credit for his part. This stuff about Kahn's wife is a bit crazy.

chopperbyrne · 07-08-2017 2:57pm

I'd like to see someone (probably AJ) win all the heavyweight titles to be undisputed champion.

There hasn't been one since Lennox Lewis seventeen years ago.

Heavyweight Boxing

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