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planning retention/ 7 year

  • 02-06-2021 2:33pm
    #1
    mikeholmes1
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭


    Hi,

    Looking some advice regarding planning.
    8 years ago i started renovating /tiding up old Agricultural buildings that the family own as they were dangerous and seemed to be young fellas drinking about the place the odd time.

    l was very into building/woodwood ect so had a few machines set up more as a hobby more than anything else but have since set up my own company{7 years ago} and am working from the building a few days per week on my own.

    The council have recently contacted me about applying for planning permission ect after a neighbour complained about it.

    What are my options as basically at the moment i work alone and just earn a living wage so more than likely will just close up shop as the numbers look massive to get planning if at all it will be granted plus i'd have to hire staff/ more stess to justify the cost. was told that after 7 years i can't be moved so wondering is there anything to it?


Comments

  • #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Options :

    1. Apply for Planning.
    2. Shut up shop.

    7 year rule is for unenforceable action but I think the use of a structure is longer than 7 years.


  • #3
    mikeholmes1
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭mikeholmes1


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Options :

    1. Apply for Planning.
    2. Shut up shop.

    7 year rule is for unenforceable action but I think the use of a structure is longer than 7 years.

    Cheers.

    Ok,have you an idea how much longer that 7 years the use of a structure is?


  • #4
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    mikeholmes1 wrote: »
    Cheers.

    Ok,have you an idea how much longer that 7 years the use of a structure is?

    12 is in my head but I have no prod to back that up.
    It may also be limited to a condition attached to a planning ?

    Best to speak to someone local who can advise on the ground.


  • #5
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,193 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Gumbo wrote: »
    12 is in my head but I have no prod to back that up.
    It may also be limited to a condition attached to a planning ?

    Best to speak to someone local who can advise on the ground.

    I think it's regarding a condition of planning, which means there is no time limit to it. So if you're using the building for something other than what a condition of planning said it can be used for (eg. Agricultural use by the landowner for their farm) or you've caused other breaches of planning conditions on the land/buildings, there is no period of enforcement. The council can bring enforcement action at any time.


  • #6
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    What numbers look massive to get planning? Applying for retention is cheap if you file yourself, which can be done. I did it for my house, took a bit of effort to draw site plans up to date, but doable.


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  • #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    tails_naf wrote: »
    What numbers look massive to get planning? Applying for retention is cheap if you file yourself, which can be done. I did it for my house, took a bit of effort to draw site plans up to date, but doable.


    Cheap for the application, but council contribution fees must be factored in also:mad:.


  • #8
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,113 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    TimberTones wrote: »
    Cheap for the application, but council contribution fees must be factored in also:mad:.

    If the buildings existed already contributions shod not be a huge factor. The premises may be a rateable building now depending on use

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #9
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,920 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    If the buildings existed already contributions shod not be a huge factor. The premises may be a rateable building now depending on use

    he says its an agricultural building in the OP, its not rateable

    assuming its about 300 sq m the Op could be looking at the following for statutory fess, before any agent fees

    planning retention @ €10.80 = €3240
    development contributions (depends on area) @ €35 /m2 = €10,500
    fire cert application @ €11.60 = €3480
    DAC @ €800


  • #10
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,113 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    he says its an agricultural building in the OP, its not rateable

    assuming its about 300 sq m the Op could be looking at the following for statutory fess, before any agent fees

    planning retention @ €10.80 = €3240
    development contributions (depends on area) @ €35 /m2 = €10,500
    fire cert application @ €11.60 = €3480
    DAC @ €800

    Renovation of a building dose not require planning unless the building was extended. OP changed it use from agricultural use to commercial after he renovated it. He seems to be running a joinery out of it. It is now a rateable building. He may/ may not have a development contribution as the building existed before but was in disrepair.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #11
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,920 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    1. Renovation of a building dose not require planning unless the building was extended.

    2. OP changed it use from agricultural use to commercial after he renovated it. He seems to be running a joinery out of it. It is now a rateable building.

    3. He may/ may not have a development contribution as the building existed before but was in disrepair.

    1. 100% incorrect. There are many types of works that require planning permission to a commercial premises without constituting an extension. A 'change of use' requires permission without any work's at all being required to the building.

    2. That change of use required planning permission. Development contributions s will be applicable after this permission, as commercial development contributions can often by 10x the value of agricultural development contributions. This difference will be applied to the change of use only if the original development contribution for agri was applied. if it wasn't applied, then the full commercial development contribution value will be applied now.

    3. see above. The renovation of an agri boiling and subsequent change of use does not exempt the applicant from development contributions.


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  • #12
    muffler
    Registered Users Posts: 45,797 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    The renovation of an agri boiling
    Hot stuff :D

    Fully agree with your other points.


  • #13
    mikeholmes1
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭mikeholmes1


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Renovation of a building dose not require planning unless the building was extended. OP changed it use from agricultural use to commercial after he renovated it. He seems to be running a joinery out of it. It is now a rateable building. He may/ may not have a development contribution as the building existed before but was in disrepair.

    The Building is 0ver 1500 sq mtr, i use it for pre assembling metal frames as it saves time onsite and makes life a bit easier but the gain isn't massive money wise so could pull the plug on that end.

    The Dilemma i have is i buy old machines/tools from done deal and the likes and restore them as a hobby and use these machines to build projects for my own home again as a hobby {probably saved me from going mental during lockdown} and the decision to revamp the buildings is mostly a sentimental one as i grew up around the building and don't want them to rot {plus my children might have some use for it down the line].

    seems the only options i have is
    [A] either let them rot into the ground and risk getting sued if someone hurts themselves while in smashing the place up or
    {b} let the council get up and ride me for every excuse under the sun.


  • #14
    mikeholmes1
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭mikeholmes1


    tails_naf wrote: »
    What numbers look massive to get planning? Applying for retention is cheap if you file yourself, which can be done. I did it for my house, took a bit of effort to draw site plans up to date, but doable.

    The neighbours would more than likely object as the have been trying to buy the place on the cheap for years so probably be turned own.


  • #15
    mikeholmes1
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭mikeholmes1


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    If the buildings existed already contributions shod not be a huge factor. The premises may be a rateable building now depending on use

    Has existed for 50 years.As sickening as it is i could pay the rates on part of it even tho ill get **** all for it but if i have to go through the crack of getting fire certs and the whole lot on top of rates then it turns into mad money for me that probably does 18hrs a week in the place.


  • #16
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,920 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mikeholmes1 wrote: »
    The Building is 0ver 1500 sq mtr, i use it for pre assembling metal frames as it saves time onsite and makes life a bit easier but the gain isn't massive money wise so could pull the plug on that end.

    The Dilemma i have is i buy old machines/tools from done deal and the likes and restore them as a hobby and use these machines to build projects for my own home again as a hobby {probably saved me from going mental during lockdown} and the decision to revamp the buildings is mostly a sentimental one as i grew up around the building and don't want them to rot {plus my children might have some use for it down the line].

    seems the only options i have is
    [A] either let them rot into the ground and risk getting sued if someone hurts themselves while in smashing the place up or
    {b} let the council get up and ride me for every excuse under the sun.

    Those aren't your only options.

    You can use the structure for your own domestic use, which isn't rateable, but you need to prove during an application that you aren't using it for commercial reasons.

    1500 sq m is obviously above and beyond the domestic requirements of the vast majority of the population, so you need a very good reason to claim it domestic only.

    However you've already admitted to using it for commercial reasons. If you buy old machines and restore them, great, what a wonderful hobby. But if you then sell on for profit, well then that's a business and your shed is a business premises.


  • #17
    mikeholmes1
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭mikeholmes1


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Those aren't your only options.

    You can use the structure for your own domestic use, which isn't rateable, but you need to prove during an application that you aren't using it for commercial reasons.

    1500 sq m is obviously above and beyond the domestic requirements of the vast majority of the population, so you need a very good reason to claim it domestic only.

    However you've already admitted to using it for commercial reasons. If you buy old machines and restore them, great, what a wonderful hobby. But if you then sell on for profit, well then that's a business and your shed is a business premises.

    1500sqm is the size of the whole building,probably use 100sq/200sq mts in total for both business work and my own stuff,Don't sell any of the machines just restore and use them for hobby projects.

    Issue again is trying to prove that one machine is for hobby use while the next is for actual business work.

    Is there a scenario where i could be rated and get a fire certs ect for say 100sq mtrs that i actually use for work reasons or would they push for the whole building thus costing me a fortune?


  • #18
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,113 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    mikeholmes1 wrote: »
    1500sqm is the size of the whole building,probably use 100sq/200sq mts in total for both business work and my own stuff,Don't sell any of the machines just restore and use them for hobby projects.

    Issue again is trying to prove that one machine is for hobby use while the next is for actual business work.

    Is there a scenario where i could be rated and get a fire certs ect for say 100sq mtrs that i actually use for work reasons or would they push for the whole building thus costing me a fortune?

    The best thing is to go to a planning officer and explain the situation to him. Even if you sell machinery you retore it not necessarily a business. May people restore old cars, tractors etc and sell them on. Often in reality there is little profit after parts and other expenses are paid.

    Can you pick one small shed that is 100 sq meters or a definable part of a shed( a lean too section) Nd apt for change of use for that.

    Except you neighbour is a maggot with a large she'd like that you could make a few bob letting caravans and motor homes park there for the winter

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #19
    mikeholmes1
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭mikeholmes1


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    The best thing is to go to a planning officer and explain the situation to him. Even if you sell machinery you retore it not necessarily a business. May people restore old cars, tractors etc and sell them on. Often in reality there is little profit after parts and other expenses are paid.

    Can you pick one small shed that is 100 sq meters or a definable part of a shed( a lean too section) Nd apt for change of use for that.

    Except you neighbour is a maggot with a large she'd like that you could make a few bob letting caravans and motor homes park there for the winter

    Have a pre planning meeting booked to go through the options already but just looking to have a bit more info before hand.
    I think technically it would be counted as a business although not a profitable one but the main thing seems to be enforcment and the level at which it switches from been a hobby to a business, don't think they would have ever bothered me only for the neighbours complaining.

    Depending on what the planners say another option would be to go all in and fully renovate the whole place into units and rent them out,would probably cost over a 100 grand and a big bank loan hanging over me but might well be the most sensible option that gives me piece of mind long term.


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