National Hurling League 2021 discussion

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 10:57am

Eoinbmw wrote: »

More scutter!

Great point - fair play to you. You're a devil for points

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:00am

If the refs use the cards, early, and make it clear persistent fouling won't be accepted. This persistent fouling and frees will stop. And the game will flow.

One_More_Mile · 13-05-2021 11:09am

formerlyET wrote: »

There has never been a team that fouls more than Limerick. It is a strategic part of their game - they play a very structured game built on fouling a team in the opposition's half of the field- not allowing a team to flow - refs tend not to give as many cards in an opposition half because it's not seen as strategic/cynical - but they also foul or pull down players when anywhere near breaking the half-back line or going near their goal.

The idiots on the Sunday Game - good at hurling but not so good at thinking - tried to blame the ref for the lack of flow to the game. The rule has only been in one weekend. And they have to talk about something.

Limerick kept fouling, frees kept being given. Tipp got a lot of frees. Limerick are happy to do that because it means opposition can't get their forwards into the game. No cards for limerick despite persistent fouling which meant Tipp started doing it then in the second half when Limerick got going because it works. You're going to see way more of it when the championship comes in unless refs start using the cards.

Way more fouling in the game. It's football-tactics hurling.

Nonsense

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:13am

One_More_Mile wrote: »

Nonsense

Great insight. Thanks

cantwbr1 · 13-05-2021 11:16am

formerlyET wrote: »

There has never been a team that fouls more than Limerick. It is a strategic part of their game - they play a very structured game built on fouling a team in the opposition's half of the field- not allowing a team to flow - refs tend not to give as many cards in an opposition half because it's not seen as strategic/cynical - but they also foul or pull down players when anywhere near breaking the half-back line or going near their goal.

The idiots on the Sunday Game - good at hurling but not so good at thinking - tried to blame the ref for the lack of flow to the game. The rule has only been in one weekend. And they have to talk about something.

Limerick kept fouling, frees kept being given. Tipp got a lot of frees. Limerick are happy to do that because it means opposition can't get their forwards into the game. No cards for limerick despite persistent fouling which meant Tipp started doing it then in the second half when Limerick got going because it works. You're going to see way more of it when the championship comes in unless refs start using the cards.

Way more fouling in the game. It's football-tactics hurling.

4 or 5 years ago Kilkenny were the ruination of the game. Now it’s Limerick. The only connection is that they were/are the best

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:17am

cantwbr1 wrote: »

4 Kilkenny were the ruination of the game. Now it’s Limerick. The only connection is that they were/are the best

Any evidence on that?

4/5 years?

Kilkenny haven't won an all-ireland since 2015...

- and successive Cody teams played in some of the best games ever played.

cantwbr1 · 13-05-2021 11:21am

formerlyET wrote: »

Any evidence on that?

For which?
The best, their records
Bitching about KK/LK, see this thread and equivalent ones over the years

4/5 years for KKs dominance is inaccurate but the commentary going back to their glory days is not

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:25am

cantwbr1 wrote: »

4/5 years for KKs dominance is inaccurate but the commentary going back to their glory days is not

You said Kilkenny were said to be the RUINATION of the game during their dominance hahaha?

Any evidence?

Commentary? What?

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:27am

If you're going to come at me with nonsense - at least try and pretend you know what you're talking about with some evidence.

Sean Moran in The Irish Times last year:

Limerick are likely to concede more frees than Waterford in this weekend’s All-Ireland hurling final, but the decisive factor will be where on the pitch they are penalised.

The 2018 All-Ireland champions have made more fouls than the opposition in each of their four matches en route to Sunday’s decider, but only once have they conceded more scores from frees.

Traditionally, teams aim for low foul counts. To prevent a free shot at their posts or an opportunity to land a long ball in on top of their defence. However, Limerick conceded three more frees than Clare in their championship opener. They conceded five more frees than Tipperary, likewise in the Munster final against Waterford. Against Galway last time out they conceded six more frees than the Tribesmen.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:29am

More evidence for you. It's only Sean Moran's job to analyse the game and teams. He wouldn't know... - it's only play to see for everyone who watches the games. Except for Limerick supporters starved of success who as long as their winning don't care what direction the game is going in:

Strategic fouling allows teams to slow down the transition from defence to attack, which in turn sets the game pace to their liking, gives them time to set up, and lays down a physical marker. Any turnover in the opposition’s defence is a scoring chance for Limerick, while any free conceded is unlikely to be in range for a point at the other end.

Tackling technique
These frees Limerick are giving away are strategic in terms of the areas where they are pressing, but the actual fouling is as much to do with their tackling technique.

The Munster champions tackle like a football team, with the first man making contact looking to put their opponent back on his heels, allowing the rest of the pack to surround and force a turnover. Limerick can only deploy this approach because most teams try to work the ball short out of their backline, and this is when they target them.

Deliberate play out of defence only encourages big hits. Waterford must work the ball out of their defensive zones quickly, and then, whilst inside scoring zones, run hard and run direct. As well as stopping Limerick from sucking the intensity and speed out of their attacks, this can also take advantage of a tackle technique that is there to be exploited.

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 11:37am

formerlyET wrote: »

If the refs use the cards, early, and make it clear persistent fouling won't be accepted. This persistent fouling and frees will stop. And the game will flow.

And Limerick woud still beat the arse off Tipp in any game that counts

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:40am

breezy1985 wrote: »

And Limerick woud still beat the arse off Tipp in any game that counts

Zero point to make again. My team would beat your team. :pac::pac:

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 11:44am

formerlyET wrote: »

Zero point to make again. My team would beat your team. :pac::pac:

Im not going to bother making any points to argue your comments because they dont need arguing. Everyone else can see it for the bitter hypocritical whinging that it is

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:47am

breezy1985 wrote: »

Im not going to bother making any points to argue your comments because they dont need arguing. Everyone else can see it for the bitter hypocritical whinging that it is

The game is an eyesore and these are some of the reasons why? Is Sean Moran from Tipp too? There are people capable of thinking beyond being from a place and supporting a team and thinking about how the game is developing...

More evidence for you. It's only Sean Moran's job to analyse the game and teams. He wouldn't know... - it's only plane to see for everyone who watches the games. Except for Limerick supporters starved of success, who as long as their winning, don't care what direction the game is going in:

Strategic fouling allows teams to slow down the transition from defence to attack, which in turn sets the game pace to their liking, gives them time to set up, and lays down a physical marker. Any turnover in the opposition’s defence is a scoring chance for Limerick, while any free conceded is unlikely to be in range for a point at the other end.

Tackling technique
These frees Limerick are giving away are strategic in terms of the areas where they are pressing, but the actual fouling is as much to do with their tackling technique.

The Munster champions tackle like a football team, with the first man making contact looking to put their opponent back on his heels, allowing the rest of the pack to surround and force a turnover. Limerick can only deploy this approach because most teams try to work the ball short out of their backline, and this is when they target them.

Deliberate play out of defence only encourages big hits. Waterford must work the ball out of their defensive zones quickly, and then, whilst inside scoring zones, run hard and run direct. As well as stopping Limerick from sucking the intensity and speed out of their attacks, this can also take advantage of a tackle technique that is there to be exploited.

13-05-2021 2:42pm

formerlyET wrote: »

There has never been a team that fouls more than Limerick. It is a strategic part of their game - they play a very structured game built on fouling a team in the opposition's half of the field- not allowing a team to flow - refs tend not to give as many cards in an opposition half because it's not seen as strategic/cynical - but they also foul or pull down players when anywhere near breaking the half-back line or going near their goal.

Statistically that may be true, but no team will ever be as cynical as Kilkenny in 2007/2008. Tyrell in his book goes on and on about how the set out to target refs to see if the ref would card them and Eddie Brennan gets a good laugh about the treatment he gave Hickey in the first few minutes of the 2007 final. Their extraordinary skill levels hid what was a team that had worked out just how dirty they could be. What's worse, imo, is they had no need to be dirty, their skills alone would have won them Championships.

All the above isn't really to knock Kilkenny or to defend Limerick, teams will do what it takes to win.

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 2:49pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Statistically that may be true, but no team will ever be as cynical as Kilkenny in 2007/2008. Tyrell in his book goes on and on about how the set out to target refs to see if the ref would card them and Eddie Brennan gets a good laugh about the treatment he gave Hickey in the first few minutes of the 2007 final. Their extraordinary skill levels hid what was a team that had worked out just how dirty they could be. What's worse, imo, is they had no need to be dirty, their skills alone would have won them Championships.

All the above isn't really to knock Kilkenny or to defend Limerick, teams will do what it takes to win.

Every team sets out to bend the rules to the absolute maximum to suit them in every sport. This fella is blinded by some fantasy about amazing skillful honest pure hurling from back in the good old days.

Hurling always had players taking cynical lumps out of each other and always had cheating. Look at Limericks goal in the 73 All Ireland they practically form a maul and drive the keeper over the line. Most games were 2 teams playing hoof and hope like as if every team in the sport was managed by Jack Charlton.

Hurling is not going down any dark dangerous avenues and talk of the ruination of the game or the death of "proper" hurling have been going on for a hundred years now

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 2:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Statistically that may be true, but no team will ever be as cynical as Kilkenny in 2007/2008. Tyrell in his book goes on and on about how the set out to target refs to see if the ref would card them and Eddie Brennan gets a good laugh about the treatment he gave Hickey in the first few minutes of the 2007 final. Their extraordinary skill levels hid what was a team that had worked out just how dirty they could be. What's worse, imo, is they had no need to be dirty, their skills alone would have won them Championships.

All the above isn't really to knock Kilkenny or to defend Limerick, teams will do what it takes to win.

Exactly, teams will do what it takes to win. But it's up to the GAA and its bodies to react with rules and strong refs that protect flow, skill, and the entertainment value of the game. Identifying when a loophole has been found, for example fouling teams in their half to prevent them getting into the game because refs don't use cards as much when a score is not the line, is one such thing that needs to be ironed out. And we don't want frees all day - players must be carded for persistent and strategic fouling.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 2:53pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Every team sets out to bend the rules to the absolute maximum to suit them in every sport. This fella is blinded by some fantasy about amazing skillful honest pure hurling from back in the good old days.

Hurling always had players taking cynical lumps out of each other and always had cheating. Look at Limericks goal in the 73 All Ireland they practically form a maul and drive the keeper over the line. Most games were 2 teams playing hoof and hope like as if every team in the sport was managed by Jack Charlton.

Hurling is not going down any dark dangerous avenues and talk of the ruination of the game or the death of "proper" hurling have been going on for a hundred years now

How do you know I'm a fella?
You're not reading the argument correctly. You're making one up. I've no idea what revelance any of that above has got to do with anything I've posted? Madness.
Taking lumps out of people? 73 all-ireland? :pac: What are you on about?

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 2:56pm

formerlyET wrote: »

How do you know I'm a fella?
You're not reading the argument correctly. You're making one up. I've no idea what revelance any of that above has got to do with anything I've posted? Madness.
Taking lumps out of people? 73 all-ireland? :pac: What are you on about?

You claimed Limerick are bringing something into the game that will ruin it. I am pointing out it was always there and you are talking rubbish

13-05-2021 3:02pm

formerlyET wrote: »

Exactly, teams will do what it takes to win. But it's up to the GAA and its bodies to react with rules and strong refs that protect flow, skill, and the entertainment value of the game. Identifying when a loophole has been found, for example fouling teams in their half to prevent them getting into the game because refs don't use cards as much when a score is not the line, is one such thing that needs to be ironed out. And we don't want frees all day - players must be carded for persistent and strategic fouling.

It's a real issue. If you tweak the rules too much against defending you will inevitably end up with a situation where all contact is penalised and lads are incentivised to dive for frees. An example is the decline in physical footballers in the premier league in the last 20 years. it's a way more attackingly (if that's a word?) skilful product now but it's worse to watch because there's no bite to it.

Most lads I know just want the ref to let the players hurl and get on with it.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 3:03pm

What has this (Sean Moran, Irish Times Journalist):

"Strategic fouling allows teams to slow down the transition from defence to attack, which in turn sets the game pace to their liking, gives them time to set up, and lays down a physical marker. Any turnover in the opposition’s defence is a scoring chance for Limerick, while any free conceded is unlikely to be in range for a point at the other end.

Tackling technique
These frees Limerick are giving away are strategic in terms of the areas where they are pressing, but the actual fouling is as much to do with their tackling technique.

The Munster champions tackle like a football team, with the first man making contact looking to put their opponent back on his heels, allowing the rest of the pack to surround and force a turnover. Limerick can only deploy this approach because most teams try to work the ball short out of their backline, and this is when they target them.

Deliberate play out of defence only encourages big hits. Waterford must work the ball out of their defensive zones quickly, and then, whilst inside scoring zones, run hard and run direct. As well as stopping Limerick from sucking the intensity and speed out of their attacks, this can also take advantage of a tackle technique that is there to be exploited."

Got to do with this (Your ?points?):

"Hurling always had players taking cynical lumps out of each other and always had cheating. Look at Limericks goal in the 73 All Ireland they practically form a maul and drive the keeper over the line. Most games were 2 teams playing hoof and hope like as if every team in the sport was managed by Jack Charlton.

Hurling is not going down any dark dangerous avenues and talk of the ruination of the game or the death of "proper" hurling have been going on for a hundred years now"

You have no point, we're talking about the game in its current guise. Not anything else. Analysing what's happening in hurling these days. Alright?

JACK CARLTON< HOW ARE YE?!?!?!

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 3:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a real issue. If you tweak the rules too much against defending you will inevitably end up with a situation where all contact is penalised and lads are incentivised to dive for frees. An example is the decline in physical footballers in the premier league in the last 20 years. it's a way more attackingly (if that's a word?) skilful product now but it's worse to watch because there's no bite to it.

Most lads I know just want the ref to let the players hurl and get on with it.

Yeah, I don't see the value of comparing premier league with hurling.

And, we won't find out how to process the rules unless we try something in the rules.

It's all well and good saying 'just let it flow, ref.' But teams are actively coming up with plans to stop flow in areas of the pitch. It's getting bad. I'd just feel something needs to be done.

But it's getting to the stage now where it looks like hurling is going to get as regimented as football and it's not good. The more tactical hurling will get the more it will become about athletes and tactics, and flow will be gone. It will be very stop and start game with frees everywhere. If they don't start carding the persistent fouling it won't get rid of the strategic fouling. The game has to be protected.

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 3:11pm

formerlyET wrote: »

What has this (Sean Moran, Irish Times Journalist):

"Strategic fouling allows teams to slow down the transition from defence to attack, which in turn sets the game pace to their liking, gives them time to set up, and lays down a physical marker. Any turnover in the opposition’s defence is a scoring chance for Limerick, while any free conceded is unlikely to be in range for a point at the other end.

Tackling technique
These frees Limerick are giving away are strategic in terms of the areas where they are pressing, but the actual fouling is as much to do with their tackling technique.

The Munster champions tackle like a football team, with the first man making contact looking to put their opponent back on his heels, allowing the rest of the pack to surround and force a turnover. Limerick can only deploy this approach because most teams try to work the ball short out of their backline, and this is when they target them.

Deliberate play out of defence only encourages big hits. Waterford must work the ball out of their defensive zones quickly, and then, whilst inside scoring zones, run hard and run direct. As well as stopping Limerick from sucking the intensity and speed out of their attacks, this can also take advantage of a tackle technique that is there to be exploited."

Got to do with this (Your ?points?):

"Hurling always had players taking cynical lumps out of each other and always had cheating. Look at Limericks goal in the 73 All Ireland they practically form a maul and drive the keeper over the line. Most games were 2 teams playing hoof and hope like as if every team in the sport was managed by Jack Charlton.

Hurling is not going down any dark dangerous avenues and talk of the ruination of the game or the death of "proper" hurling have been going on for a hundred years now"

You have no point, we're talking about the game in its current guise. Not anything else. Analysing what's happening in hurling these days. Alright?

JACK CARLTON< HOW ARE YE?!?!?!

You claimed that Limerick were doing something other teams were not. That is nonsense it has been happening as long as the game exists. Limerick might be doing it in a new way to fit the new rules but are not more or less dirty than any other AI champion.

And the game of hurling is not in any more or less danger of becoming dirty or cynical than at any other time.

Stop trying to move the goalposts you said Limerick were the dirtiest team ever and bringing in crowding as if it was new. Both are untrue

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 3:13pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Stop trying to move the goalposts you said Limerick were the dirtiest team ever and bringing in crowding as if it was new. Both are untrue

I didn't say any of that. Are you alright?

cantwbr1 · 13-05-2021 3:29pm

formerlyET wrote: »

Hurling is not going down any dark dangerous avenues and talk of the ruination of the game or the death of "proper" hurling have been going on for a 100 years

That’s somewhat what I was saying earlier. There’s always talk of a dominant team ruining the game (Lk now, Kk a few years ago) but the game continues to improve.

WRT persistent/cynical fouling, I don’t think Lk are any worse than any other team but they are analysed more.
Hopefully the new rules will make cynical fouling less attractive without removing the physicality

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 3:35pm

cantwbr1 wrote: »

That’s somewhat what I was saying earlier. There’s always talk of a dominant team ruining the game (Lk now, Kk a few years ago) but the game continues to improve.

WRT persistent/cynical fouling, I don’t think Lk are any worse than any other team but they are analysed more.
Hopefully the new rules will make cynical fouling less attractive without removing the physicality

Did you just falsely quote me? :pac:

Your making up stuff now! This is amazing!

13-05-2021 3:42pm

formerlyET wrote: »

Yeah, I don't see the value of comparing premier league with hurling.

And, we won't find out how to process the rules unless we try something in the rules.

It's all well and good saying 'just let it flow, ref.' But teams are actively coming up with plans to stop flow in areas of the pitch. It's getting bad. I'd just feel something needs to be done.

But it's getting to the stage now where it looks like hurling is going to get as regimented as football and it's not good. The more tactical hurling will get the more it will become about athletes and tactics, and flow will be gone. It will be very stop and start game with frees everywhere. If they don't start carding the persistent fouling it won't get rid of the strategic fouling. The game has to be protected.

I agree but I wonder if the cure you're prescribing won't kill the patient too, albeit in a different way. You incentivise diving and you'll just get more of it. Lads can score from way out now so what we'll be left with isn't frees in 1 third of the pitch going unpunished but diving in the other 2/3rds leading to more scores.

there's no way of taking the modern standards of athleticism out of the game. Even teams from a decade ago are noticeably smaller, imo.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 3:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree but I wonder if the cure you're prescribing won't kill the patient too, albeit in a different way. You incentivise diving and you'll just get more of it. Lads can score from way out now so what we'll be left with isn't frees in 1 third of the pitch going unpunished but diving in the other 2/3rds leading to more scores.

there's no way of taking the modern standards of athleticism out of the game. Even teams from a decade ago are noticeably smaller, imo.

I'd agree with that. But, something has to be tried.

Diving has to be penalised in a similar way.

Perhaps a ref is needed for both halves of the field. I know there might be inconsistencies between. But some refs really struggle to keep up with the pace of the game and who could blame them.

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 4:00pm

formerlyET wrote: »

I didn't say any of that. Are you alright?

"The Munster champions tackle like a football team, with the first man making contact looking to put their opponent back on his heels, allowing the rest of the pack to surround and force a turnover"

"There has never been a team that fouls more than Limerick"

"The game is an eyesore and these are the reasons why"

You said or quoted all of those. Are you alright?

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 4:01pm

cantwbr1 wrote: »

That’s somewhat what I was saying earlier. There’s always talk of a dominant team ruining the game (Lk now, Kk a few years ago) but the game continues to improve.

WRT persistent/cynical fouling, I don’t think Lk are any worse than any other team but they are analysed more.
Hopefully the new rules will make cynical fouling less attractive without removing the physicality

That was me who said that

National Hurling League 2021 discussion

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