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15-05-2019, 18:19   #46
steddyeddy
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The only people who imagine it’s not fair that people are entitled to what they pay for, are people who can’t afford to pay for what everyone else is paying for.

Permitting students entry into Universities on the basis of their academic ability rather than their ability to fund equality and diversity programmes would eventually lead to there being no funding available for those programmes which provide a means for a small few to feel better about themselves by funding someone else’s education with someone else’s money.
Jack that isn't anything at all like how funding works. I don't get you point to be honest. Students in the UK get loans for their education anyway. As do Americans.
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15-05-2019, 18:33   #47
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Please don't turn it into Irish vs English. Not everything happens to be about that. I actually live in England and America so me commenting on these things isn't a dig at English people.
I wasn't having a dig at you though, it was directed at a poster who likes to regularly make snide comments.

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No offence AB but it's a very dim simplification to assume the question of education boils down to who meets matriculation. It's about sending the right people to university. People who are the most academically gifted, not those who are simply pushed to passing GCSEs. The research states that private school students with the same grades as state school students won't be as academically confident when they get into university. So in other words from a scenario where we have two A scoring pupils, one state and one private, it would be better to pick the state school pupil.
What you are proposing is the exact opposite of what is happening now. Instead of preference being given to kids from private schools, kids from state schools are given preference. How does that solve anything?

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It is a valid point though Odhinn. It's also interesting that the studies suggest state school pupils do better once they leave the school environment. It sort of explains Brexit to be honest.
how does it explain Brexit?
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15-05-2019, 18:47   #48
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Jack that isn't anything at all like how funding works. I don't get you point to be honest. Students in the UK get loans for their education anyway. As do Americans.

It’s exactly how funding works! Where do you imagine the money is coming from to pay for the education of students you would rather see admitted to University seeing as they generally can’t afford to pay for their own University education?
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15-05-2019, 20:07   #49
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a study from Cambridge uni which actually leads back to your original erroneous assumption about matriculation:
You've read me wrong, I agreed with you.

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So I'm questioning the most academically able students are getting into university and you think I'm proving this lunatic's point about jews and the protocols of Zion?
Again, you've read me wrong. I've pointed out he was a bit hysterical with the way he went about it, but my point (which agrees somewhat with Aegir) is that nothing is solved by incorrectly using data to discriminate against any group of students.

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The research states that private school students with the same grades as state school students won't be as academically confident when they get into university. So in other words from a scenario where we have two A scoring pupils, one state and one private, it would be better to pick the state school pupil.
Or, why don't we take them in equal measure and provide help to the ones who need it? If this was about women, BAME students or LGBT struggling in a similar manner you would not be as fast to suggest we just take on students who would handle it better.
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15-05-2019, 20:14   #50
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You've read me wrong, I agreed with you.



Again, you've read me wrong. I've pointed out he was a bit hysterical with the way he went about it, but my point (which agrees somewhat with Aegir) is that nothing is solved by incorrectly using data to discriminate against any group of students.



Or, why don't we take them in equal measure and provide help to the ones who need it? If this was about women, BAME students or LGBT struggling in a similar manner you would not be as fast to suggest we just take on students who would handle it better.
Actually I would. I don't agree with quotas, but right now we're having a situation were students are being selected based on a system which doesn't take school into account. All the evidence points to the fact that school matters.
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15-05-2019, 20:15   #51
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It’s exactly how funding works! Where do you imagine the money is coming from to pay for the education of students you would rather see admitted to University seeing as they generally can’t afford to pay for their own University education?
Well with the loan systems students pay back the cost of their own education.
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15-05-2019, 20:34   #52
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Well, if I were paying €40,000 per annum* in fees for my child's education I'd probably feel persecuted if some pleb had the temerity to say they should no longer have a privileged place in English society either. It's bad enough losing the right to send all the cadet branches to far flung corners of the Empire to lord it over the native savages, but losing that place at home in England over the English plebs? Enough is enough!

Approximately 85% of all Irish students, on the other hand, can legitimately claim to have been educated in private schools without paying fees at all. Let's all thank that private institution known as the Roman Catholic Church for that bragging right.

*Stowe's boarding fees are a comparatively small €14,500 per annum, which is close enough to the crèche fee per child per annum for many Irish parents so I'm decidedly unimpressed with this "elite" talk.
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15-05-2019, 20:45   #53
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Well with the loan systems students pay back the cost of their own education.
I’ve yet to hear of students from impoverished backgrounds qualifying for student loans, and those students who do manage to qualify for student loans often finish their education in deep debt with no means to pay back their loans.


UK student loan debt soars to more than £100bn
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15-05-2019, 21:27   #54
Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
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No offence AB but it's a very dim simplification to assume the question of education boils down to who meets matriculation. It's about sending the right people to university. People who are the most academically gifted, not those who are simply pushed to passing GCSEs. The research states that private school students with the same grades as state school students won't be as academically confident when they get into university. So in other words from a scenario where we have two A scoring pupils, one state and one private, it would be better to pick the state school pupil.

Research? Sure, there are numerous studies with the same conclusion. Here's one of my favourite, a study from Cambridge uni which actually leads back to your original erroneous assumption about matriculation:



And here:





So I'm questioning the most academically able students are getting into university and you think I'm proving this lunatic's point about jews and the protocols of Zion?



Are you joking? Nearly half of Oxford's undergrads were from private schools. The same goes for a lot of the Russell group universities. Matriculation should be picking from the brighter students. It's not at the moment. The two-tier education system is masking true ability.



Or we could try a crazy idea and actually let the students in who are best able for the course. You might think they're owed a place because they paid money to school but most people don't.



As explained I dislike the two-tier system because it's not giving us an accurate representation of who the best students are.

.

Are you coming on to me?
I find that so hard to believe based on my experiences in an Irish university. The private school students were bursting with confidence, notably moreso than state schoolers. And did well too.

Being blunt, steddyeddy, you kinda have a chip on your shoulder about this topic and I’m not sure you approach the research objectively.
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15-05-2019, 22:38   #55
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I find that so hard to believe based on my experiences in an Irish university. The private school students were bursting with confidence, notably moreso than state schoolers. And did well too.
Confidence doesn't equal ability. The best student in our group lacks confidence but she's the most capable. Confidence can be built. No offense either but "belief" doesn't really cut it.

[/quote]
Being blunt, steddyeddy, you kinda have a chip on your shoulder about this topic and I’m not sure you approach the research objectively.[/quote]

Being equally blunt I think the ad hominem you often see in this debate highlights the weakness of the argument. Just like the headmaster who compared people who had a problem with it to the Nazis party. It's all to common in this debate and again, to be blunt I don't think you've added anything to it other than belief.

I might have missreprented my role in this debate earlier but I didn't conduct the research myself. To bow to elites for a minute it was Cambridge and Manchester university that did. You can read their work on the subject. You don't have to actually rely on my conclusions, your beliefs or an ad hominem in this regard.
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15-05-2019, 22:40   #56
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I’ve yet to hear of students from impoverished backgrounds qualifying for student loans, and those students who do manage to qualify for student loans often finish their education in deep debt with no means to pay back their loans.


UK student loan debt soars to more than £100bn
Poor students do get help to go to university in the UK Jack. It's not ideal but it's getting there.
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15-05-2019, 22:54   #57
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Poor students do get help to go to university in the UK Jack. It's not ideal but it's getting there.

They get help to get themselves in over their heads in debt so they can be told they’re just like everyone else now, and they’re somehow supposed to be appreciative of their privilege of being saddled with crippling debt, and then they become the target of that handful of people who make it their life’s mission to “challenge privilege”. It’s not ideal eddy, and it’s only going to get worse as more and more people are convinced to attend University where they feel they don’t belong, but they’re not given much of a choice as it’s expected of them and puts them under enormous pressure to be someone they’re not.
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16-05-2019, 07:53   #58
Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
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Confidence doesn't equal ability. The best student in our group lacks confidence but she's the most capable. Confidence can be built. No offense either but "belief" doesn't really cut it.

Being equally blunt I think the ad hominem you often see in this debate highlights the weakness of the argument. Just like the headmaster who compared people who had a problem with it to the Nazis party. It's all to common in this debate and again, to be blunt I don't think you've added anything to it other than belief.

I might have missreprented my role in this debate earlier but I didn't conduct the research myself. To bow to elites for a minute it was Cambridge and Manchester university that did. You can read their work on the subject. You don't have to actually rely on my conclusions, your beliefs or an ad hominem in this regard.
Like I said, they also did well in addition to being confident. I found the private school college friends I had to be very accomplished. I read the report and it was interesting but did bring up many questions in my mind. Is the report taking in all the universities in the UK? Universities vary greatly in quality in the UK. There are a lot of them. The different between state school students who achieve all As at GCSE level getting good grades and private schooled students getting all As at GCSE level getting good degrees was quite close: something like 73% to 69%, wasn’t it? And again, which universities? I’d think more of a 1:1 or 2:1 from Oxford or, say, Bristol University than one from Thames Valley University. As well as that, what proportion of state school students are getting all As at GCSE and what proportion of private school students are?

You do have a long history of posting about this topic on boards and your view does see a little entrenched. In Ireland, where the college application process is anonymous and based solely on grades, private schools top the league tables for the percentages they send to college. There can be no accusations of direct bias there. I acknowledge that private schools here confer advantages on their students that help them prepare better for exams. And going to college is much more an expectation in private schools. The question isn’t “Are you going to college?”, it’s ”Which college are you going to?”. But the report you reference that shows that state school students do better at university does throw up questions, as I mentioned above. I’d like to see an analysis of each university in the UK because the quality of institutions varies so much.

And I say all this as somebody from a low income background who went to state school and who also a good college degree. I’m just interested in the data being interpreted properly and thoroughly.
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