Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Post Reply  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
15-05-2019, 14:00   #31
Aegir
Registered User
 
Aegir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by steddyeddy View Post
Point it out A.
I couldn't see any statistic that says that, only that 58% come from state schools. It may be the case that it is 42% of oxford students come from independent schools, but from what I can see, it is an assumption.

The Sutton Trust report is a fascinating read. https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-conte...ntage-2018.pdf
Aegir is offline  
Thanks from:
Advertisement
15-05-2019, 15:11   #32
steddyeddy
Registered User
 
steddyeddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
I couldn't see any statistic that says that, only that 58% come from state schools. It may be the case that it is 42% of oxford students come from independent schools, but from what I can see, it is an assumption.

The Sutton Trust report is a fascinating read. https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-conte...ntage-2018.pdf
It is indeed Aegir.

Here's Oxford's own statistics that offer a clearer view. It seems 41.8% of all admissions to Oxford in 2017 come from independent schools.
steddyeddy is offline  
15-05-2019, 15:16   #33
A Tyrant Named Miltiades!
Alexa, Play Liveline
 
A Tyrant Named Miltiades!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,770
Mod: Radio, ZTest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Palmer View Post
What way does college selection work in the UK? CAO system here stops favoritism based on schools directly.
UCAS. I don't know if it's changed now, but when I was applying, the application mainly consisted of a personal statement, a statement from a referee (usually a teacher), and a list of your anticipated grades, stated by each of your teachers.

Students are then rejected or given an offer, usually on the condition that they achieve certain grades (in Oxbridge, you were required to have all A's at higher level, they might have tolerated the odd B if it wasn't relevant to your chosen field.

It's a system that is vulnerable to bias, but I guess the UK can handle it fairly well because it has a population of 66 million. Ireland is just too small for a similar system (or the humans operating it) to be trustworthy.
A Tyrant Named Miltiades! is offline  
15-05-2019, 15:26   #34
steddyeddy
Registered User
 
steddyeddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by One eyed Jack View Post
That gives you some say in admissions, it doesn’t give you any say in how your taxes are spent. That’s decided by politicians, and sitting on an equality board at a University isn’t going to have all that much of an influence in who is or isn’t admitted to University when the main criteria for admissions is still those people wealthy enough to be able to afford to send their children to Universities.

It’s the trainee politicians in the SU will be deciding in the future how much funding is given to equality and diversity programmes over how much funding is given to scientific research. That Government funded “equality board” you’re sitting on for example -


Athena SWAN (Scientific Women’s Academic Network) is a charter established and managed by the UK Equality Challenge Unit (now part of Advance HE) in 2005 that recognises and celebrates good practices in higher education and research institutions towards the advancement of gender equality: representation, progression and success for all.

...

An exploratory study of women's and men's perceptions of Athena SWAN was broadly positive and highlighted the significance of government funding being linked to SWAN awards, but it also highlighted the limitations of whether the process can change longstanding and entrenched issues in society.


Athena SWAN


All that being said of course, when I hear anyone come out with the expression “challenging privilege”, it’s the wealthy SU types who I was referring to such as these examples -

White males' should be BANNED from speaking during university classes so women and transgender students are more willing to contribute to discussions, seminar suggests

Pictured: Diversity officer who banned whites from her 'anti-racism' event at British university wiping away fake tear in front of 'no white men' sign
Jack clearly some of those you mentioned aren't pleasant people and some even racist. You can usually differentiate those from people who really care because they just want attention.
steddyeddy is offline  
Thanks from:
15-05-2019, 16:09   #35
One eyed Jack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by steddyeddy View Post
Jack clearly some of those you mentioned aren't pleasant people and some even racist. You can usually differentiate those from people who really care because they just want attention.

Absolutely, and one of the easiest ways to differentiate between people who really care and people who just want attention is when they start using words like “privilege”.

It’s difficult to feel any sympathy of course for anyone in who complains that the social group they identify with are being squeezed out of Universities because other groups in society have more “privilege”. That’s not merit based equality, it’s identity politics, and Universities or Government funded bodies which employ such tactics have never given me the impression that they actually cared all that much about creating equal opportunities in education for everyone. They always appear to be more interested in how they could increase their funding to justify their existence.
One eyed Jack is offline  
Advertisement
15-05-2019, 16:09   #36
AlphabetCards
Registered User
 
AlphabetCards's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by steddyeddy View Post
But unfortunately the studies show that private school students do worse when they get to university. You're saying that universities shouldn't seek the best students and minimise the under performers?
That's not the metric though, is it? The question is about meeting matriculation. Any figures on the above statement?

Quote:
I know it's mad right. They feel their kids are entitled to superior treatment based on class and the ones who challenge that are labelled as discriminating against class.
They are entitled to feel however they like. Fact of the matter is, that although the Head of Stowe is over the top with his analogy, you are literally proving his point. If state school kids do better academically for matriculation AND they struggle less at university, then were exactly is the privilege? Other than the fact that they pay for their education. If anything we should be making places for private school students and putting schemes in place to ensure that they are not finding the university experience overwhelming.

What is it that you have against private schools anyway? The money parents pay usually goes towards sports facilities and music equipment anyway.

Quote:
I'm a member on our organisation's Athena Swan board in a UK university. We deal with gender, class and race discrimination and ensuring equality of opportunity.
Mmmmhmmmm.
AlphabetCards is offline  
(2) thanks from:
15-05-2019, 16:22   #37
Aegir
Registered User
 
Aegir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphabetCards View Post
They are entitled to feel however they like. Fact of the matter is, that although the Head of Stowe is over the top with his analogy, you are literally proving his point. If state school kids do better academically for matriculation AND they struggle less at university, then were exactly is the privilege? Other than the fact that they pay for their education. If anything we should be making places for private school students and putting schemes in place to ensure that they are not finding the university experience overwhelming.
That is his (very badly made) point. People don't get in to Oxbridge just because they went to Eton, they get in because they met the entrance criteria. The fact that coming from Eton gives them an advantage is relevant, but they still need to get straight As in their A levels.

If you go to a Private school, there is probably more expectation on you to go on to Oxbridge and more chance of you applying, where as Crinkley Bottom Secondary modern probably doesn't push you as hard, or as displayed here, gives people the message that only toffs go to Oxford or Cambridge, so the reverse snobbery works against them.

As Brampton Manor school demonstrated, if you make the kids think that getting in to Oxbridge is well within their grasp, then they will go for it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-46900154
Aegir is offline  
Thanks from:
15-05-2019, 16:44   #38
Ray Palmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverharp View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Palmer View Post
The US system is even worse with the way it selects pupils. Such a corrupt and exclusionary model.
Their SAT's are a reasonable approach? also the US maybe entering a peak in terms of collage attendance, its beginning to be seen as a joke and an expensive one.
They don't use that to get into college. It is individual applications to colleges. Without extra curricular work you won't get into college. My nephews went through this and SATs are a small part of it. There is also a ridiculous scholarship model so no one truly pays full fees.
Ray Palmer is offline  
15-05-2019, 16:48   #39
Odhinn
Registered User
 
Odhinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 4,034
Quote:
Privately educated pupils in the UK are also being accused of dominating the top jobs and stifling social mobility

I wonder why.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8151106.html
Odhinn is offline  
Advertisement
15-05-2019, 17:20   #40
Aegir
Registered User
 
Aegir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odhinn View Post
I guess normal people, like maybe a bus driver's son, or a vicar's daughter would never make it in the UK.

Maybe they should move to Dublin, land of equality.

Well, where kids from a Dublin fee paying school are equally likely to get in to the top universities. http://trinitynews.ie/2016/12/studen...ce-in-trinity/

but **** everyone else.

Quote:
In addition, there are more first year students in Trinity from private schools in Dublin (563 pupils) than there are from all schools in the provinces of Munster, Connaught and Ulster (Donegal, Monaghan & Cavan) combined (395 pupils).
but yeah, those nasty Brits eh nodin?
Aegir is offline  
15-05-2019, 17:56   #41
steddyeddy
Registered User
 
steddyeddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphabetCards View Post
That's not the metric though, is it? The question is about meeting matriculation. Any figures on the above statement?
No offence AB but it's a very dim simplification to assume the question of education boils down to who meets matriculation. It's about sending the right people to university. People who are the most academically gifted, not those who are simply pushed to passing GCSEs. The research states that private school students with the same grades as state school students won't be as academically confident when they get into university. So in other words from a scenario where we have two A scoring pupils, one state and one private, it would be better to pick the state school pupil.

Research? Sure, there are numerous studies with the same conclusion. Here's one of my favourite, a study from Cambridge uni which actually leads back to your original erroneous assumption about matriculation:

Quote:
Students who went to a private school are significantly less likely to get a good degree than state school students with similar A-level results, says a study conducted by the University of Cambridge’s examinations arm.

Research by Cambridge Assessment found that, in Russell Group universities, private school-leavers were about a third less likely to achieve a first or a 2:1 than state school students with similar prior attainment.
And here:

Quote:
State schools students are more likely to become high-flying doctors because they are used to battling against the odds, a study has found.

Medical students are nearly twice as likely to graduate top of their class if they were educated in the state sector rather than at fee-paying schools, according to research by the University of Aberdeen. It comes despite the fact students from private institutions score slightly higher in the entry tests.
Quote:
They are entitled to feel however they like. Fact of the matter is, that although the Head of Stowe is over the top with his analogy, you are literally proving his point.
So I'm questioning the most academically able students are getting into university and you think I'm proving this lunatic's point about jews and the protocols of Zion?

Quote:
If state school kids do better academically for matriculation AND they struggle less at university, then were exactly is the privilege?
Are you joking? Nearly half of Oxford's undergrads were from private schools. The same goes for a lot of the Russell group universities. Matriculation should be picking from the brighter students. It's not at the moment. The two-tier education system is masking true ability.

Quote:
Other than the fact that they pay for their education. If anything we should be making places for private school students and putting schemes in place to ensure that they are not finding the university experience overwhelming.
Or we could try a crazy idea and actually let the students in who are best able for the course. You might think they're owed a place because they paid money to school but most people don't.

Quote:
What is it that you have against private schools anyway? The money parents pay usually goes towards sports facilities and music equipment anyway.
As explained I dislike the two-tier system because it's not giving us an accurate representation of who the best students are.

Quote:
Mmmmhmmmm
.

Are you coming on to me?

Last edited by steddyeddy; 15-05-2019 at 18:13.
steddyeddy is offline  
15-05-2019, 17:58   #42
steddyeddy
Registered User
 
steddyeddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
I guess normal people, like maybe a bus driver's son, or a vicar's daughter would never make it in the UK.

Maybe they should move to Dublin, land of equality.

Well, where kids from a Dublin fee paying school are equally likely to get in to the top universities. http://trinitynews.ie/2016/12/studen...ce-in-trinity/

but **** everyone else.



but yeah, those nasty Brits eh nodin?
Please don't turn it into Irish vs English. Not everything happens to be about that. I actually live in England and America so me commenting on these things isn't a dig at English people.
steddyeddy is offline  
15-05-2019, 18:00   #43
Odhinn
Registered User
 
Odhinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 4,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
I guess normal people, like maybe a bus driver's son, or a vicar's daughter would never make it in the UK.

Maybe they should move to Dublin, land of equality.

Well, where kids from a Dublin fee paying school are equally likely to get in to the top universities. http://trinitynews.ie/2016/12/studen...ce-in-trinity/

but **** everyone else.



but yeah, those nasty Brits eh nodin?

Where did I single out the Brits?...you might stop projecting your nonsense onto me.
Odhinn is offline  
Thanks from:
15-05-2019, 18:06   #44
steddyeddy
Registered User
 
steddyeddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odhinn View Post
It is a valid point though Odhinn. It's also interesting that the studies suggest state school pupils do better once they leave the school environment. It sort of explains Brexit to be honest.
steddyeddy is offline  
15-05-2019, 18:17   #45
One eyed Jack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by steddyeddy View Post
Or we could try a crazy idea and actually let the students in who are best able for the course. You might think they're owed a place because they paid money to school but most people don't.

The only people who imagine it’s not fair that people are entitled to what they pay for, are people who can’t afford to pay for what everyone else is paying for.

Permitting students entry into Universities on the basis of their academic ability rather than their ability to fund equality and diversity programmes would eventually lead to there being no funding available for those programmes which provide a means for a small few to feel better about themselves by funding someone else’s education with someone else’s money.
One eyed Jack is offline  
Post Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Remove Text Formatting
Bold
Italic
Underline

Insert Image
Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
 
Decrease Size
Increase Size
Please sign up or log in to join the discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Share Tweet