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Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

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  • Options
    #722
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    I think for all but those with the most extreme viewpoints, it's clear that a trans woman is not a biological woman. I see it is a rhetorical statement rather than a literal one. If that lands me in TERF territory, so be it.

    If the statement is rhetorical, which I don't think is the intention, then it is being used to attempt non-verbal repercussions in the ''material reality''. Which makes it not rhetorical.


  • Options
    #723
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    I can understand that scientific facts amuse you as you believe pseudo science trumps science itself. I never quoted a Wiki, I referenced the Wpath guidance on transgender healthcare, another body full of scientists that you don't believe in!
    klaaaz wrote: »


    The HSE like many national health services on transgender treatment take their guidance from Wpath who believe a person can change their primary sex as well their secondary sex characteristics, that's a change of sex.

    Sorry Klaaaz, before I leave to to it, I just noticed this!

    You don’t really know what primary and secondary sex characteristic are, do you?
    Primary secondary characteristics are the sex organs you develop in utero and are born with - so penis, vagina, testes etc etc.
    Secondary sex characteristics are those that develop at the time of sexual maturity - puberty, so breasts, pubic and body hair etc etc.

    Nobody refuted that you can surgically or hormonally change or at least alter many of these things.

    That’s in no way a change of sex - so that’s not at all what Wpath are saying.

    Basic human biology 101 Klaaaz.


  • Options
    #724
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Personal attacks now.....

    Well thats fcuking ironic hypocritial


  • Options
    #725
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Zorya wrote: »
    If the statement is rhetorical, which I don't think is the intention, then it is being used to attempt non-verbal repercussions in the ''material reality''. Which makes it not rhetorical.

    I think often when people say "transwomen are women" they mean "trans women deserve to be treated as women" and not "i believe this person is now biologically and in every other way a woman" - but there are extremists who believe that I guess.

    I don't think it's the most common interpretation, but the most extreme voices are often loudest on social media.


  • Options
    #726
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    If you were an internationally renowned researcher on tax avoidance, that opinion would get you fired. Or contract not renewed. Whichever.


    To be perfectly honest though, looking at an overview of the whole situation, it hasn’t done Jordan Peterson’s career any harm for his gender critical opinions. Sure, his employment with his then employer at the time was terminated, but he’s since gone on to make a lucrative career for himself which may not have happened had he decided not to rock the boat. I could see the potential for the woman in the opening post to carve out a new career for herself on the social justice speaker circuit and do quite well for herself out of it (though probably not as well as Jordan Peterson has done for himself).


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    #727
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest though, looking at an overview of the whole situation, it hasn’t done Jordan Peterson’s career any harm for his gender critical opinions. Sure, his employment with his then employer at the time was terminated, but he’s since gone on to make a lucrative career for himself which may not have happened had he decided not to rock the boat. I could see the potential for the woman in the opening post to carve out a new career for herself on the social justice speaker circuit and do quite well for herself out of it (though probably not as well as Jordan Peterson has done for himself).

    Seeing as she raised £30k in a day, I think she'll be fine.


  • Options
    #728
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    I think often when people say "transwomen are women" they mean "trans women deserve to be treated as women" and not "i believe this person is now biologically and in every other way a woman" - but there are extremists who believe that I guess.

    Thats fair enough though, to acknowledge their "gender identity", but not to the detriment of biological females (e.g. in sports)
    For they are not biological females/women.


  • Options
    #729
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,244 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest though, looking at an overview of the whole situation, it hasn’t done Jordan Peterson’s career any harm for his gender critical opinions. Sure, his employment with his then employer at the time was terminated, but he’s since gone on to make a lucrative career for himself which may not have happened had he decided not to rock the boat. I could see the potential for the woman in the opening post to carve out a new career for herself on the social justice speaker circuit and do quite well for herself out of it (though probably not as well as Jordan Peterson has done for himself).

    He is more likely to be the exception that proves the rule.

    He was already a well established Professor who has a mass of highly cited research and had tenure in some of the leading Psychology Depts in the World.

    For those not secure, speaking out is often too high a price to pay.


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    #730
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Here is a question for those who think a MtF transperson is a woman. Do you think that person can call themselves a lesbian?


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    #731
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Personal attacks now? Are 2,617 scientists not good enough for you, how many scientists does it take for you to understand that you're factually wrong?

    Saying you are scientifically illiterate isn’t a personal attack. It’s an observation.

    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    I think often when people say "transwomen are women" they mean "trans women deserve to be treated as women" and not "i believe this person is now biologically and in every other way a woman" - but there are extremists who believe that I guess.

    I don't think it's the most common interpretation, but the most extreme voices are often loudest on social media.

    So Klaaaz, do you agree with Kiki that trans women are not actually the same as biological women?


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    #732
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    You don’t really know what primary and secondary sex characteristic are, do you?
    Primary secondary characteristics are the sex organs you develop in utero and are born with - so penis, vagina, testes etc etc.
    Secondary sex characteristics are those that develop at the time of sexual maturity - puberty, so breasts, pubic and body hair etc etc.

    Nobody refuted that you can surgically or hormonally change or at least alter many of these things.

    That’s in no way a change of sex - so that’s not at all what Wpath are saying.

    Basic human biology 101 Klaaaz.

    More science denial from yourself. This really is some conspiracy classic stuff coming from you, your reaction to the employment situation in the workplace this morning was very comical, you've topped it up with denying the science from 2,617 scientists and now it's the Wpath in your target range!

    You really don't like those pesky scientists, have you tried to post your theories in the conspiracy forum?


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    #733
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Zorya wrote: »
    Here is a question for those who think a MtF transperson is a woman. Do you think that person can call themselves a lesbian?

    I think if they are post-hormone treatment and post-op (genitals) then yes.


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    #734
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    I think often when people say "transwomen are women" they mean "trans women deserve to be treated as women" and not "i believe this person is now biologically and in every other way a woman" - but there are extremists who believe that I guess.

    I don't think it's the most common interpretation, but the most extreme voices are often loudest on social media.

    Yes these are fair points.

    I believe transpersons should be treated with all the dignity accorded to every human being. But I strongly disagree with the sex based rights and protections of biological women being infringed upon by radical and ideological trans activism.


  • Options
    #735
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    She got what was coming to her.


  • Options
    #736
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    I think if they are post-hormone treatment and post-op (genitals) then yes.

    And before? With simply self identification?


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    #737
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Zorya wrote: »
    And before? With simply self identification?

    It's a complicated question and I honestly don't have the answer. I believe in informed consent, so I think an honest conversation with new sexual partners is desirable.

    I went to a trans performers comedy night and most seemed to identify as bisexual or pansexual.


  • Options
    #738
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Yes, it's a huge conspiracy that it's possible to determine what sex a human, or any animal is and humans can literally change their sex and be completely indistinguishable on a genetic level from their chosen gender identity. Even if they don't have any treatment, if they say so, they are exactly the same as their chosen gender and therefore, the sex based rights of females also apply to males who so wish.

    Anyone who disagrees with this is committing wrong think and must be immediately sent for re-education (gulags were useful, fun places remember. That's literally what a trans right activist said) If they happen to be female (the old fashioned kind only), they must also have their livelihoods and families targeted as well as receive a healthy dose of rape and death threats. Burn the witch!

    These are the new rules.

    Ffs. It's delusional to the extreme and utterly pointless to debate.


  • Options
    #739
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    It's a complicated question and I honestly don't have the answer. I believe in informed consent, so I think an honest conversation with new sexual partners is desirable.

    I went to a trans performers comedy night and most seemed to identify as bisexual or pansexual.

    Fair answer.

    There are problems arising though where lesbians are being turfed out of LGB groups because they will not accept being told that they aught to not discriminate against male-bodied lesbians.
    It is one (of the very many) incoherencies in the ideology. Lesbians on the whole are attracted to the female sex, the female body, not the female gender identity.
    I don't see the same level of push going on for gay guys to be inclusive towards female bodied gay guys. This is note worthy. How do gay guys feel about female-bodied gay guys?


  • Options
    #740
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    Yes these are fair points.

    I believe transpersons should be treated with all the dignity accorded to every human being. But I strongly disagree with the sex based rights and protections of biological women being infringed upon by radical and ideological trans activism.

    There is a severe lack of dignity in this yet another thread towards transgender people. Denying their rights to even exist which you have done(you said of "trans women" as "trans identified males" for example just like what the author said in the original article). You have no genuine compassionate voice in the transgender issue, you are certainly not friendly towards their position.
    And sex based rights and protections are already enshrined in Irish law(if you actually live in this country!) but you have been burying this from attention as it undermines your stand on the fearmongering.


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    #741
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Zorya wrote: »
    Fair answer.

    There are problems arising though where lesbians are being turfed out of LGB groups because they will not accept being told that they aught to not discriminate against male-bodied lesbians.
    It is one (of the very many) incoherencies in the ideology. Lesbians on the whole are attracted to the female sex, the female body, not the female gender identity.
    I don't see the same level of push going on for gay guys to be inclusive towards female bodied gay guys. This is note worthy. How do gay guys feel about female-bodied gay guys?

    I wonder how much of this conversation is happening at a theoretical level, and how often this actually comes up? Like, no matter what body you have or gender you identify with, you can't make someone fancy you - so it doesn't make sense on a practical level to be angry that a lesbian doesn't fancy you?


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    #742
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    klaaaz wrote: »
    I can understand that scientific facts amuse you as you believe pseudo science trumps science itself. I never quoted a Wiki, I referenced the Wpath guidance on transgender healthcare, another body full of scientists that you don't believe in!
    Actually I had an oul read of their standards of care PDF and within it states this: The initial clinical approach largely focused on identifying who was an appropriate candidate for sex reassignment to facilitate a physical change from male to female or female to male as completely as possible Now they add in the caveat of "as completely as possible", but they also suggest it is possible to make a "physical change from male to female or female to male". This is biologically, medically and scientifically impossible. Any one who suggests otherwise is a fantasist, a quack, or someone so wedded to the dogma they choose to believe it.

    Please outline how medicine can change gonadal tissue from testes to ovarian or vice versa, or create a uterus and associated structure. Please outline how medicine can change the chromosomes in every single cell of a human body. Please outline how medicine can change a functioning vagina into a functioning penis and vice versa. I'll make it easy; they can't.

    Now I have already stated and more than once that I believe Transgender exists and even believe one day we'll find out much more and will even be able to tell by brain scans(as that's where it likely lies or where it's most obvious) and that Transgender is likely a less obvious, less "extreme" expression of an intersex condition. I have zero problem with an adult choosing to live as they choose to live. However, I have a big problem with ballsology masquerading as science and medical facts and I have a big bloody problem with an often aggressive dogma that seeks to quieten any debate on that matter, even to the degree of shouting down "enemies" and seeking to silence them by any means at their disposal.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Options
    #743
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    Fair answer.

    There are problems arising though where lesbians are being turfed out of LGB groups because they will not accept being told that they aught to not discriminate against male-bodied lesbians.
    It is one (of the very many) incoherencies in the ideology. Lesbians on the whole are attracted to the female sex, the female body, not the female gender identity.

    Nice twisting of words. Lesbians(L with the T) have been supportive of including transgender people being included in the LGBT umbrella. There is no forced relationship stuff going on between lesbians and transgender people, it's made up and you're promoting it here dishonestly. The lesbians who opposed transgender people of any form(who you agree to) and are a tiny minority of the LGBT community left and formed their own groups like L without the T. A splinter group and all that happened in the UK, not Ireland.


  • Options
    #744
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    I wonder how much of this conversation is happening at a theoretical level, and how often this actually comes up? Like, no matter what body you have or gender you identify with, you can't make someone fancy you - so it doesn't make sense on a practical level to be angry that a lesbian doesn't fancy you?

    It's coming up in the real world. There are interesting talks online about it. Julia Beck, for example, is a prominent lesbian speaker who gives her opinion on it.


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    #745
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Actually I had an oul read of their standards of care PDF and within it states this: The initial clinical approach largely focused on identifying who was an appropriate candidate for sex reassignment to facilitate a physical change from male to female or female to male as completely as possible Now they add in the caveat of "as completely as possible", but they also suggest it is possible to make a "physical change from male to female or female to male". This is biologically, medically and scientifically impossible. Any one who suggests otherwise is a fantasist, a quack, or someone so wedded to the dogma they choose to believe it.

    Please outline how medicine can change gonadal tissue from testes to ovarian or vice versa, or create a uterus and associated structure. Please outline how medicine can change the chromosomes in every single cell of a human body. Please outline how medicine can change a functioning vagina into a functioning penis and vice versa. I'll make it easy; they can't.

    Now I have already stated and more than once that I believe Transgender exists and even believe one day we'll find out much more and will even be able to tell by brain scans(as that's where it likely lies or where it's most obvious) and that Transgender is likely a less obvious, less "extreme" expression of an intersex condition. I have zero problem with an adult choosing to live as they choose to live. However, I have a big problem with ballsology masquerading as science and medical facts and I have a big bloody problem with an often aggressive dogma that seeks to quieten any debate on that matter, even to the degree of shouting down "enemies" and seeking to silence them by any means at their disposal.

    If changing sex was possible then there would have been a successful uterus transplant into a (former?) male by now. As it is now, it's unlikely to ever happen when every single cell of a body is coded by sex and you can be sure that the body knows a uterus does not belong there with no endocrinal system to support it, even if the brain thinks otherwise.

    That's not denying trans people the right to exist. They have that right as any other people and to be treated socially, legally etc as their chosen gender. I'm fully onboard with that. I'm not on board with the biological reality and protections of half the population being erased and appropiated. That's all.


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    #746
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Actually I had an oul read of their standards of care PDF and within it states this: The initial clinical approach largely focused on identifying who was an appropriate candidate for sex reassignment to facilitate a physical change from male to female or female to male as completely as possible Now they add in the caveat of "as completely as possible", but they also suggest it is possible to make a "physical change from male to female or female to male". This is biologically, medically and scientifically impossible. Any one who suggests otherwise is a fantasist, a quack, or someone so wedded to the dogma they choose to believe it.
    Well done on your first time looking up a factual document from Wpath, its a long document which takes some time to read. It's their guidance to every national health service in the world on transgender health for when people change sex. Medical professionals in a range of fields as you know follow their guidance.

    Your response was going well until you branded the scientists on the transgender issue as fantasists, quackery and having some dogma. Wpath has been around for decades, it has nothing to do with the recent conspiracy around being politically correct, pseudo-science, dogma, name that conspiracy theory etc!
    Wibbs wrote:
    Please outline how medicine can change gonadal tissue from testes to ovarian or vice versa, or create a uterus and associated structure. Please outline how medicine can change the chromosomes in every single cell of a human body. Please outline how medicine can change a functioning vagina into a functioning penis and vice versa. I'll make it easy; they can't.

    What defines a man and a woman physically, some of the human race do not contain some of those characteristics you mention. As for chromosomes. the 2,617 scientists say there is no actual genetic test for sex or gender so it's not really relevant in your definition.
    Wibbs wrote:
    Now I have already stated and more than once that I believe Transgender exists and even believe one day we'll find out much more and will even be able to tell by brain scans(as that's where it likely lies or where it's most obvious) and that Transgender is likely a less obvious, less "extreme" expression of an intersex condition. I have zero problem with an adult choosing to live as they choose to live.

    You're learning, i'll give you that! (on the brain thing)


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    #747
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Well done on your first time looking up a factual document from Wpath, its a long document which takes some time to read. It's their guidance to every national health service in the world on transgender health for when people change sex. Medical professionals in a range of fields as you know follow their guidance.

    Your response was going well until you branded the scientists on the transgender issue as fantasists, quackery and having some dogma. Wpath has been around for decades, it has nothing to do with the recent conspiracy around being politically correct, pseudo-science, dogma, name that conspiracy theory etc!



    What defines a man and a woman physically, some of the human race do not contain some of those characteristics you mention. As for chromosomes. the 2,617 scientists say there is no actual genetic test for sex or gender so it's not really relevant in your definition.



    You're learning, i'll give you that! (on the brain thing)

    For people like me who are still trying to make sense of all this, but could be convinced to take a lot of what you have to say on board, your aggression is very off-putting.


  • Options
    #748
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    If changing sex was possible then there would have been a successful uterus transplant into a (former?) male by now. As it is now, it's unlikely to ever happen when every single cell of a body is coded by sex and you can be sure that the body knows a uterus does not belong there with no endocrinal system to support it, even if the brain thinks otherwise.

    That's not denying trans people the right to exist. They have that right as any other people and to be treated socially, legally etc as their chosen gender. I'm fully onboard with that. I'm not on board with the biological reality and protections of half the population being erased and appropiated. That's all.

    Oh there will be womb transplants into males and there will be pregnancies. Those pregnancies will be maintained with heavy loads of hormones. It won't be a consideration about what this might do to the developing foetus, so long as some transhumanist fetish is fulfilled. It will be called a human right. Just as a child was recently exclusively fed on milk induced from a male by serious doses of Domperidone. Who cares that that hormone is banned in many countries for its bad effects on the heart.


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    #749
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    If changing sex was possible then there would have been a successful uterus transplant into a (former?) male by now. As it is now, it's unlikely to ever happen when every single cell of a body is coded by sex and you can be sure that the body knows a uterus does not belong there with no endocrinal system to support it, even if the brain thinks otherwise.

    So you say that a woman without an uterus is not a woman, wonderful definition there insulting many women without an uterus. By the way, uterus transplants will happen eventually because of those pesky scientists.


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    #750
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Zorya wrote: »
    Oh there will be womb transplants into males and there will be pregnancies. Those pregnancies will be maintained with heavy loads of hormones. It won't be a consideration about what this might do to the developing foetus, so long as some transhumanist fetish is fulfilled. It will be called a human right. Just as a child was recently exclusively fed on milk induced from a male by serious doses of Domperidone. Who cares that that hormone is banned in many countries for its bad effects on the heart.

    Well I hope the medical community comes to their senses by then. Children should not be used as medical experiments. Although that's already happening with the prescription of blockers and hormones to minors so god knows, maybe a foetus will be fair game too. Meanwhile, everything a pregnant female does or puts into her body while pregnant will still be judged and scruntinised I'm sure.


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    #751
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    klaaaz wrote: »
    So you say that a woman without an uterus is not a woman, wonderful definition there insulting many women without an uterus. By the way, uterus transplants will happen eventually because of those pesky scientists.

    Really? This again? Get some new material. No I don't say that. As you well know.

    Succesful uterus transplants have already happened, in females. That's because a female body is able to support such an organ, and its not because of how the brain feels or thinks. It would take a huge scientific leap to put one into a male and sustain a pregnancy and it would need a massive amount of drugs which would be unethical to expose a growing foetus to. There are other ways to have children that don't involve potentially damaging them


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