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15-05-2019, 15:55   #31
Edgware
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Originally Posted by beejee View Post
The point you may be missing is that Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood is in ADDITION to Miguel, Ivanka and THEIR ever growing brood.

And as someone else mentioned in another thread, the family reunification thing has an average of 20 people being petitioned to join each individual. And in one case 70. Deco and Jacinta may have plenty of time in the sack, but they aren't going to add 20+ people to the country in the space of a couple years

Its numbers, nothing more.

Also, I'd like to point out the obvious, that there is nothing "arbitrary" about distinguishing people from different parts of the planet in relation to a specific, localised problem. You seem to have no problem doing it yourself.
But Miguel Ivanka etc will follow the traditional immigrant path and try to improve their circumstances and maybe even buy a house.
Deco will continue to bleed the system and Jacinta will be happy as long as she has a house "near me Ma and me sisters"
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15-05-2019, 15:57   #32
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Also, I don't agree in the slightest that immigrants (no matter from where) should be put on housing lists at all
I'm not Irish but in the years I've been here I reckon I payed enough to the taxman co cover the building cost of a 4b house, or more. Probably I will never need housing, but if I do I hope I don't get on the housing list, I don't want to displace any person that is more worthy than me, so I would be happy enough to get the house I already payed for, thank you very much.
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15-05-2019, 15:59   #33
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I'm not sure immigration is the problem so much as a disastrously unbalanced country where people are piling into cities from rural areas. And also cities are disastrously planned, particularly Dublin where you still have people living in one or two story houses within a mile or two of O'Connell Street. And nimbyism is still rampant when it comes to high density.

In fact, the very same presenters and broadcasters who are outraged about homelessness are often the first to object when someone proposes a new high density development in their neighbourhood.
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15-05-2019, 16:02   #34
OnlyWayIsUp
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I see that theres another thread about the primetime episode last night on immigration, but I have my own specific experience/slant on it.

Heres the episode on RTE player https://www.rte.ie/player/series/pri...id=IH000368194

Looking at the map they created for immigration numbers in Dublin was staggering. Actually hard to believe. Lots of areas where irish people are in the severe minority, with Dorset street in particular being only 7% irish.

A few weeks ago a family member, a student, had three college mates turn up at the door late at night. Individually they had to leave their own accommodation because of the costs, and collectively they came up with the plan to "stay in the living room" of the family member. And if this last ditch plan didn't work out they would have to split back home to various parts of the country.

Of course the family member wasn't on for it at all, because there was no plan, it was all indefinite. Desperate stuff, especially coming close to exams.

So...

Besides that little anecdote (amongst many!), and then the non-stop reminders of the housing crisis (especially Dublin)….how can anyone not link the subject of that primetime episode and the housing crisis together?

It seems almost extraordinary that immigration is never linked to the housing crisis. But numbers are numbers, or at least they used to be!

It feels like people are losing/have lost their minds. When did the obvious become so invisible? Is it just taboo in the extreme?

I know there are many factors involved in the housing crisis, but my interpretation is that there is no bigger, glaring factor than the massive influx of people into Ireland/Dublin.

Is there a bigger contributing factor to the housing crisis? Some would say there aren't enough houses being built, but whats the point if they will only be filled up immediately? Id be interested in hearing peoples opinions on this.
Immigrants are net contributors to the Irish economy therefore their being here should be helping us solve problems not making them worse.

Immigrants are not the issue, incompetence is.
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15-05-2019, 16:04   #35
riclad
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Look at hotels, restaurants , shops., if all the non nationals left,
there would not be enough irish people left to replace them.
We are in the eu, any person who lives in the eu can come and live here.
This is a myth, if someone on the list refuse,s to take a house it goes
to the next person on the list.
houses are only offered to a parent with 2 children at least.
i think most people who come to live in ireland want to live in urban area.s or citys where its easy to find a job.
Young people from rural area,s are moving to citys where they study or work.
The housing crisis was caused by bad planning and the rescue of the banks .
We had years where there was very little building going on,
most irish builders went out of business after 2007.
Look at brexit in the uk,
it will cause a crisis in the uk economy .
its possible to discuss immigration without being racist .
We are in a boom at the moment,
so its not a supprise if we have more people who wish to live here .
Its well known immigrants are providing tax revenue and providing workers for the economy to grow .
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15-05-2019, 16:04   #36
beejee
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We obviously do have a need for them...

Hiring someone from outside the EU is a pain in the hole for employers, far simpler to hire an Irish person. But if you can't find an Irish person who's willing to clean toilets for minimum wage, you'll find an immigrant who will.
So who cleaned toilets beforehand?

Are you telling me that employers sought out toilet cleaners from the rest of the world, having exhausted their search for irish people, and those people travelled here specifically to clean toilets?

Do you believe that's whats happening in reality?

Or is this more likely;

Low-skilled immigrants (or any skill level) arrive here in the first place, are willing to put up with more crap than irish people (lower wages, substandard accommodation, multiple people to a room etc) and THEN take any job going? And that employers much prefer a more subservient, cheaper, disposable workforce than irish people? Does that sound more realistic?

You see the problem is that when population of people are willing to put up with lesser standards than before, it drags ALL people into the same situation. Now irish people are expected to live multiples to a room, "bed-shares" and so on too.

On top of that, those irish people are then blamed for being "too lazy" and that's why the immigrants are here. Crazy.
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15-05-2019, 16:10   #37
ToBeFrank123
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So who cleaned toilets beforehand?

Are you telling me that employers sought out toilet cleaners from the rest of the world, having exhausted their search for irish people, and those people travelled here specifically to clean toilets?

Do you believe that's whats happening in reality?

Or is this more likely;

Low-skilled immigrants (or any skill level) arrive here in the first place, are willing to put up with more crap than irish people (lower wages, substandard accommodation, multiple people to a room etc) and THEN take any job going? And that employers much prefer a more subservient, cheaper, disposable workforce than irish people? Does that sound more realistic?

You see the problem is that when population of people are willing to put up with lesser standards than before, it drags ALL people into the same situation. Now irish people are expected to live multiples to a room, "bed-shares" and so on too.

On top of that, those irish people are then blamed for being "too lazy" and that's why the immigrants are here. Crazy.
Probably the aforementioned Jacinta and Decco, both of who in theory should now be in more sophisticated better paying roles.
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15-05-2019, 16:10   #38
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Unlimited immigration from the EU, no ceiling even possible legally, it’s hardly surprising a country this small with a strong economy has problems.
It’s not just housing, visit the regional hospital or maternity in Limerick and see how stretched services are. Or the schools in most provincial towns.
Freedom of movement is a great idea in principle, but in reality you cannot possibly plan long term while it is in place. It really needs to change to a more restrictive model, like the US, Canada or Australia. It is common sense.
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15-05-2019, 16:11   #39
beejee
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Originally Posted by OnlyWayIsUp View Post
Immigrants are net contributors to the Irish economy therefore their being here should be helping us solve problems not making them worse.

Immigrants are not the issue, incompetence is.
Its getting fuzzy here becaue we have to talk generally. But are they net contributors? Are all factors being taken into account, or just some that paint a different picture?

Again, the 7% number of Irish people living in the dorset street area...whats the effect for Irish people there/want move there/need to be there?

Is the competition against the other 93% pushing rents up? Is it harder to find accommodation when up against the 93%? Will you face discrimination in the competition against a vast majority of people who are looking out for themselves more than likely? Is it harder to get medical appointments? Use transport? Congestion in general?

If a person pays tax (and theres no guarantee that an immigrant pays taxes), that is not the be all and end all of being a contributor to the country or region.
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15-05-2019, 16:12   #40
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Thank you OP! Thanks to your misleading statistic about Dorset Street being only 7% Irish I managed to finally find a shop in Ireland that sells Balkan Cockta! I've been looking for this for years now, so fair play
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15-05-2019, 16:19   #41
beejee
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But Miguel Ivanka etc will follow the traditional immigrant path and try to improve their circumstances and maybe even buy a house.
Deco will continue to bleed the system and Jacinta will be happy as long as she has a house "near me Ma and me sisters"
Or maybe they wont.

Maybe Miguel and Ivanka will cop on that its a good bet to get on the mythical housing list too. And then maybe their friends and family will want a house "near the ma's and da's and friends too".

The fact is that the numbers are growing. Everything else is hypothetical, and putting more faith in people from other countries, for the sole reason that they are from other countries, is completely erroneous.
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15-05-2019, 16:19   #42
Cordell
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As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues
Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.
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15-05-2019, 16:22   #43
beejee
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Thank you OP! Thanks to your misleading statistic about Dorset Street being only 7% Irish I managed to finally find a shop in Ireland that sells Balkan Cockta! I've been looking for this for years now, so fair play
Oh Im sorry, I'm simply re-stating what was presented in that primetime episode that I linked in the first post for all to see. Many apologies for not contacting RTE and conducting an independent investigation of my own.

Perhaps you should thank primetime instead. Or show whats wrong in the report? More information is always better.
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15-05-2019, 16:25   #44
beejee
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As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues
Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.
I don't see any immigrant bashing. Im keeping the topic on point, that immigration is, in my opinion, the greatest factor contributing to the housing crisis.

To be fair, theres been very little said to contradict the assumption. Build more houses, I don't think that solves anything. Reign in the REITS etc, that has its place, but is still behind immigration in my opinion.

As said a few times now, its about numbers, and there being too many.
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15-05-2019, 16:26   #45
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As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues
Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.


Can you back that up regarding minority of immigrants don’t work and the majority do?
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