Lambs with Orf

yessam · 14-05-2010 4:40pm #1

I have some lambs that got orf around the mouth. We did not have this for a few years. Years ago we had to do a scratch vaccine to cure it. It got very bad at the time. What is the best and quickest way to get rid of this now.

snowman707 · 14-05-2010 8:52pm

orf is a virus so will not respond to treatment, the vaccine is a preventive not a cure.

reilig · 14-05-2010 10:09pm

I know someone with a cure for orf. Its a spiritual thing, but it does work. She has done it several times for our sheep and it always works. Don't know how she does it, but her husband says that she leaves the house with a large kitchen knife and climes a hill close to their house - he doesn't dare follow her.

Her cure also works for cold sores in humans. Some people don't believe in these old time cures, but I have seen it with my own eyes.

LostCovey · 15-05-2010 2:34pm

reilig wrote: »

I know someone with a cure for orf. Its a spiritual thing, but it does work. She has done it several times for our sheep and it always works. Don't know how she does it, but her husband says that she leaves the house with a large kitchen knife and climes a hill close to their house - he doesn't dare follow her. Her cure also works for cold sores in humans. Some people don't believe in these old time cures, but I have seen it with my own eyes.

Of course it always works. Orf always clears up by itself. Despite what people do to cure it, rather than because of.

I am sure your friend's cure is unlikely to do any harm, apart from whatever harm she does with the knife.

The best thing you can do to control orf is to control thistles, as the virus gets into broken skin more readily.

LostCovey

johngalway · 15-05-2010 3:45pm

www.farmrite.co.uk

You'll find Orf-M, ovaloids, and there are a couple of disinfectant sprays on there which all help. We've used them for years. Separate any infected lambs and ewes from the rest of the flock.

yessam · 15-05-2010 6:28pm

Johngalway, do you use both spray and capsules and do you buy them from this wed site

ormondprop · 15-05-2010 7:14pm

the father uses a mix of lime and water and dips the lambs mouth in it and rubs it on the ewes tits if they're infected aswell, usually works quickly enough, like what was said earlier keep the sheep seperated as it spreads like mad, if a lot of lambs are getting it you should vaccinate all the lambs before incase they get it

johngalway · 15-05-2010 7:54pm

yessam wrote: »

Johngalway, do you use both spray and capsules and do you buy them from this wed site

Yes, I give them two ovaloids, two sprays of the Orf-M on the tongue (it's absorbed via the tongue and palette and not to be put down the throat like a dose). Then I use the antiseptic spray on the lesions themselves to help slow the spread to other animals. The important thing is to keep all the Orf animals seperate from the rest of the flock. I find when I do this I have less Orf as the infected lambs aren't rubbing their mouths and hooves on troughs and gates where healthy lambs will be rubbing themselves too.

As said it can't really be cured as such, but it can be helped along.

snowman707 · 15-05-2010 9:18pm

bear in mind if you are vaccinating, you are using a live virus and the scabs that fall off the vaccination site can harbour and spread orf for many weeks,

we dont vaccinate or treat orf any more about 2 0r 3 % of the lambs get it midly each year,

mAke sure to wear gloves, not very nice if contacted by humans.

johngalway · 15-05-2010 9:22pm

snowman707 wrote: »

mAke sure to wear gloves, not very nice if contacted by humans.

Been there, done that. Got bitten one year, don't ask how :rolleyes: We were in between doctors at the time so had locums on the job. Long story short, three doctor visits later I was on three lots of anti-biotics, getting red lumps and red patches on my hands and feet :eek: Went and saw a proper doctor, who dumped all my pills into the bin. My kidneys were being damaged apparently!

Tincture of iodine, through an eye dropper onto the Orf and keep it covered. It'll heal up in it's own good time.

LostCovey · 15-05-2010 9:36pm

johngalway wrote: »

Been there, done that. Got bitten one year, don't ask how :rolleyes: We were in between doctors at the time so had locums on the job. Long story short, three doctor visits later I was on three lots of anti-biotics, getting red lumps and red patches on my hands and feet :eek: Went and saw a proper doctor, who dumped all my pills into the bin. My kidneys were being damaged apparently!

Tincture of iodine, through an eye dropper onto the Orf and keep it covered. It'll heal up in it's own good time.

A very smart doctor.

And that is all anyone can do for orf. I asked an old shepherd once about 'Orfoids' (which are those old gelatine covered sulphur tablets in the yellow tin sold to treat orf). He told me they were the best way he knew to get orf, because you inevitably scratch yourself in the process of giving them, and so many of the lambs have it on the lips.

And they have no effect, and no trial data to support their use. None whatever.

All we do is use antibiotic cover or a disinfectant spray (for secondary infections - no effect on the virus), but it will run its course no matter what.

Its course may involve deaths if animals are too severely affected around the mouth to eat & drink, and that is where the vaccine comes in. Bugger for causing mastitis in ewes too if they won't let the lambs suck. Because its a herpesvirus it lasts in the environment for ages in scabs, so its really hard to get rid of from the farm without vaccination.

LostCovey

reilig · 16-05-2010 8:15am

LostCovey wrote: »

Of course it always works. Orf always clears up by itself. Despite what people do to cure it, rather than because of.

I am sure your friend's cure is unlikely to do any harm, apart from whatever harm she does with the knife.

The best thing you can do to control orf is to control thistles, as the virus gets into broken skin more readily.

LostCovey

The orf clears up within 3 days of her doing the cure. If you leave orf to clear up itself it takes at least 3 weeks.

LostCovey · 16-05-2010 12:51pm

reilig wrote: »

The orf clears up within 3 days of her doing the cure. If you leave orf to clear up itself it takes at least 3 weeks.

There's not much point in getting into this science versus magic argument. I doubt we'll agree.

However, let's keep this factual. The normal course of orf in any animal is ONE WEEK in the vast majority of cases. This is well known, and well established by trials, and in field outbreaks. For centuries. If your sheep had a similar skin condition that lasted three weeks, it was something else. An outbreak can go on for whatever length, as animals pick up infections, but each individual clears up in a week, unless they get something else.

If you believe in magic and it works for you, good luck. In fairness, science doesn't offer much in the treatment of orf. Neither does magic.

If anyone could really cure it, they would be on the road to wealth.

LostCovey

EAFC_rdfl · 16-05-2010 6:41pm

blue stone and washing soda mixed into a paste

LostCovey · 16-05-2010 7:01pm

EAFC_rdfl wrote: »

blue stone and washing soda mixed into a paste

....will burn them.

They are suffering enough. Folk remedies and black magic are all very well.

Giving chemical burns to defenceless creatures is something else, especially in a paste that will burn for days. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Hopefully there is a moderator reading this thread.

LostCovey

reilig · 17-05-2010 10:40am

LostCovey wrote: »

There's not much point in getting into this science versus magic argument. I doubt we'll agree.

However, let's keep this factual. The normal course of orf in any animal is ONE WEEK in the vast majority of cases. This is well known, and well established by trials, and in field outbreaks. For centuries. If your sheep had a similar skin condition that lasted three weeks, it was something else. An outbreak can go on for whatever length, as animals pick up infections, but each individual clears up in a week, unless they get something else.

If you believe in magic and it works for you, good luck. In fairness, science doesn't offer much in the treatment of orf. Neither does magic.

If anyone could really cure it, they would be on the road to wealth.

LostCovey

Your argument appears unresearched. Do you keep lambs or are you just giving your opinion?

Before chemicals were available, farmers used people with cures for to treat most illnesses in animals. Just because you don't know anyone who uses these does not mean that they are "Black magic" or anything to be made a joke of like you did above. In reality you are making the joke of your own ignorance to cures.

Secondly, Blue Stone and washing soda are not harsh chemicals. Blue Stone has been used for hundreds of years to dose cattle and sheep for fluke, to treat foot rot and to treat orf. It is an organic treatment and does not have a meat withdrawal period. Washing soda kills germs - its anti-bacterial and has been used for this purpose for many years before dettol or savlon were produced.

Also, there has been some extensve research done on orf in lambs in the uk. They claim that the normal course of Orf in Lambs is SEVEN to TEN WEEKS. Maybe our lambs are more immune than theirs, but I really doubt it.

References are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orf_(disease)
http://www.moredun.org.uk/feature-article.asp?ref=194
http://www.apd.reading.ac.uk/AgEcon/livestockdisease/sheep/orf.htm

LostCovey · 18-05-2010 1:06am

Hi Reilig,

You don't give up, i'll give you that.

reilig wrote: »

Your argument appears unresearched.

Better researched than the witchdoctor and carving knife approach you suggest.

reilig wrote: »

Do you keep lambs or are you just giving your opinion?

Both.

reilig wrote: »

Before chemicals were available, farmers used people with cures for to treat most illnesses in animals. Just because you don't know anyone who uses these does not mean that they are "Black magic" or anything to be made a joke of like you did above. In reality you are making the joke of your own ignorance to cures.

A joke? You are the one who suggested this was a treatment for contagious ecthyma (orf) in lambs:

I know someone with a cure for orf. Its a spiritual thing, but it does work. She has done it several times for our sheep and it always works. Don't know how she does it, but her husband says that she leaves the house with a large kitchen knife and climes a hill close to their house - he doesn't dare follow her.

That is beyond parody.

reilig wrote: »

Secondly, Blue Stone and washing soda are not harsh chemicals. Blue Stone has been used for hundreds of years to dose cattle and sheep for fluke, to treat foot rot and to treat orf. It is an organic treatment and does not have a meat withdrawal period. Washing soda kills germs - its anti-bacterial and has been used for this purpose for many years before dettol or savlon were produced.

Nonsense. You referred to Wikipedia - this is what it says about bluestone/copper sulphate:

Copper sulfate is a strong irritant [16]. The usual routes by which humans can receive toxic exposure to copper sulfate are through eye or skin contact, as well as by inhaling powders and dusts [17]. Skin contact may result in itching or eczema [18]. Eye contact with copper sulfate can cause conjunctivitis, inflammation of the eyelid lining, ulceration, and clouding of the cornea [19] Upon acute oral exposure, copper sulfate turns to be only moderately toxic [20]. According to studies, the lowest dose of copper sulfate that had a toxic impact on humans is 11 mg/kg.[21]. Because of its irritating effect on the gastrointestinal tract, vomiting is automatically triggered in case of the ingestion of copper sulfate. However, if copper sulfate is retained in the stomach, the symptoms can be severe. After 1-12 grams of copper sulfate are swallowed, such poisoning signs may occur as a metallic taste in the mouth, burning pain in the chest, nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, headache, discontinued urination, which leads to yellowing of the skin. In case of copper sulfate poisoning, injury to the brain, stomach, liver, kidneys may also occur [19]

The Material Data sheet for a VERY dilute combination of washing soda and bluestone is here:
http://www.chemhazsolutions.com/TP%20R%20English.pdf

Not harsh? Read it again.

It is an organic treatment and does not have a meat withdrawal period.

If copper sulphate (or Blue Stone as you call it) is acceptable as a non-chemical on organic farms that says more about the organic movement than about copper sulphate

Blue Stone has been used for hundreds of years to dose cattle and sheep for fluke, to treat foot rot and to treat orf.

Asbestos was used everywhere for a long time too.

Also, there has been some extensve research done on orf in lambs in the uk. They claim that the normal course of Orf in Lambs is SEVEN to TEN WEEKS. Maybe our lambs are more immune than theirs, but I really doubt it.

Your first reference (Wikipedia) says one week, but I accept it may be longer in individual lambs.

I don't believe in magic, or the tooth fairy, we will have to agree to differ.

The other poster should stop scalding his unfortunate lambs with chemical burns, and stop advising others to inflict it on theirs. If they have orf they are suffering enough.

LostCovey

reilig · 18-05-2010 10:11am

I love your reference from Wikipedia that couldn't even spell copper sulphate. Problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can type anything into it. Yours looks like it was typed by a 10 year old.

You should take up your cause with the Irish Organic Association if you have such a serious problem with Bluestone. They recommend it for nearly everything

Its the only organic treatment for potato blight. They have published leaflets in the past on how it can be used to treat for fluke in both cattle and sheep as well as treating foot rot and orf. I will have a look for one of the leaflets this evening and scan it in if I can find it.
Bluestone / CUS04 solution has been used on our farm and millions of farms across the world for generations. Obviously if you do not make it into a diluted solution you are sure to kill the animal that you are treating - as your wikipedia article suggests. But I would suggest that you could learn a lot about the use of bluestone for animal treatments if you googled it.

As for the way that I treat orf in my lambs, well that's my own business. My way works for me and a lot of other sheep farmers that I know. I didn't offer a cure to anyone here nor do I intend to. I simply told people what I do. I didn't expect a barrage of criticism and sarcism that you gave me through your "witch doctor" and "parody" spiels.

The_Conductor · 18-05-2010 10:50am

Guys- if you disagree with each other- refute each others posts factually- without resorting to personalising your posts.

Regards,

Shane

LostCovey · 18-05-2010 7:07pm

reilig wrote: »

I love your reference from Wikipedia that couldn't even spell copper sulphate. Problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can type anything into it. Yours looks like it was typed by a 10 year old.

Reilig, you were the one who decided Wikipedia was credible two or three posts back, I was just using your own source.

By the way 'sulfate' is an American (rather than a juvenile) rendering of 'sulphate'.

reilig wrote: »

You should take up your cause with the Irish Organic Association if you have such a serious problem with Bluestone. They recommend it for nearly everything

Now you needn't be quoting the Orgasmic crowd and criticising Wikipedia. I think Wikipedia has more credibility actually, so don't be wearing out your scanner on their literature.

reilig wrote: »

Its the only organic treatment for potato blight. They have published leaflets in the past on how it can be used to treat for fluke in both cattle and sheep as well as treating foot rot and orf. I will have a look for one of the leaflets this evening and scan it in if I can find it.

I won't get drawn into the nonsense and fiction of the organic movement (more magic). Copper sulphate is a corrosive, toxic and poisonous chemical. Get over it.

reilig wrote: »

As for the way that I treat orf in my lambs, well that's my own business. My way works for me and a lot of other sheep farmers that I know. I didn't offer a cure to anyone here nor do I intend to. I simply told people what I do. I didn't expect a barrage of criticism and sarcism that you gave me through your "witch doctor" and "parody" spiels.

Well, it was hard to resist.

You weren't giving advice? My impression that some genuine person with a genuine problem was getting offers from Chemical Ali who was going to scald the lips off his lambs with bluestone and washing soda, or your friend's wife Jihad Jane going up the hill to do something unspeakable with her carving knife - a spiritual thing apparently.

I was trying to do what Jennifer Aniston called 'the science bit', but I totally accept your assurances that you won't be listening to any of that stuff.

You can do whatever you want with your own sheep as long as you don't get caught - this country has some animal welfare legislation

LostCovey.

reilig · 18-05-2010 9:40pm

I'm not even going to rise to your comments because all you seem to want is an argument and an opportunity to be derogative and label people and systems that you do not believe in. Thanks for your information!! Goodbye

LostCovey wrote: »

Reilig, you were the one who decided Wikipedia was credible two or three posts back, I was just using your own source.

By the way 'sulfate' is an American (rather than a juvenile) rendering of 'sulphate'.

Now you needn't be quoting the Orgasmic crowd and criticising Wikipedia. I think Wikipedia has more credibility actually, so don't be wearing out your scanner on their literature.

I won't get drawn into the nonsense and fiction of the organic movement (more magic). Copper sulphate is a corrosive, toxic and poisonous chemical. Get over it.

Well, it was hard to resist.

You weren't giving advice? My impression that some genuine person with a genuine problem was getting offers from Chemical Ali who was going to scald the lips off his lambs with bluestone and washing soda, or your friend's wife Jihad Jane going up the hill to do something unspeakable with her carving knife - a spiritual thing apparently.

I was trying to do what Jennifer Aniston called 'the science bit', but I totally accept your assurances that you won't be listening to any of that stuff.

You can do whatever you want with your own sheep as long as you don't get caught - this country has some animal welfare legislation

LostCovey.

LostCovey · 18-05-2010 10:39pm

reilig wrote: »

I'm not even going to rise to your comments because all you seem to want is an argument and an opportunity to be derogative and label people and systems that you do not believe in. Thanks for your information!! Goodbye

Grand.

LostCovey

EAFC_rdfl · 19-05-2010 9:08am

LostCovey wrote: »

Reilig, you were the one who decided Wikipedia was credible two or three posts back, I was just using your own source.

By the way 'sulfate' is an American (rather than a juvenile) rendering of 'sulphate'.

Now you needn't be quoting the Orgasmic crowd and criticising Wikipedia. I think Wikipedia has more credibility actually, so don't be wearing out your scanner on their literature.

I won't get drawn into the nonsense and fiction of the organic movement (more magic). Copper sulphate is a corrosive, toxic and poisonous chemical. Get over it.

Well, it was hard to resist.

You weren't giving advice? My impression that some genuine person with a genuine problem was getting offers from Chemical Ali who was going to scald the lips off his lambs with bluestone and washing soda, or your friend's wife Jihad Jane going up the hill to do something unspeakable with her carving knife - a spiritual thing apparently.

I was trying to do what Jennifer Aniston called 'the science bit', but I totally accept your assurances that you won't be listening to any of that stuff.

You can do whatever you want with your own sheep as long as you don't get caught - this country has some animal welfare legislation

LostCovey.

thanks for that, how many more personal attacks are you going to get away with on here

The_Conductor · 19-05-2010 11:57am

None.
Thread closed.

Lambs with Orf

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