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Coronavirus and the effect on Public transport

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭Ohmeha


    Plenty of people were still coughing into their mobile phones/fists/fresh air on the DART today despite the bright yellow-posters plastered everywhere, there is just no helping a percentage of the population to change their selfish behaviors. Any reduction in bus/rail services or carriage sizes is going to ramp up the conditions for spread of this disease and will be at conflict with the social distancing instructions


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    People will not exit via the middle door. In fact they can be so dumb, they walk right past an open middle door to exit the front even after numerous announcements.

    Unless new signs are put up maybe.

    Yes, constant announcements on the speakers, due to COVID19 ONLY use the middle door to exit for social distancing. And when I say constant, I mean repeat it over and over again every minute. Also bright yellow posters plastered on the window next to every seat, saying the same.

    I'm sure some idiots would still use the front door. But the social pressure of something like this might actual see a real social change.
    With dublin bus, the drivers already have screens separating them from passengers.

    Yes but those screens are pretty limited in this regard, they have lots of holes to talk to passengers and in particular the big cut out section for the drivers ticket machine.

    I've seen pictures in papers, I think from Italy, where they have completely covered the door to the drivers cabin in plastic and taped it off. So no interaction with the public. Obviously that would force fares not to be taken, unless perhaps they switched to leap only.

    Another option I've seen them do in some countries is tape off the front door and the yellow line by the driver, so entry/exit through the middle door only. Other places are already doing this:

    https://www.masstransitmag.com/technology/fare-collection/article/21130017/systems-drop-fare-collection-to-further-enhance-covid19-mitigation-measures


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    One thing I will say is that any such measures taken to protect drivers and passengers from the virus also have to take safety into account. For example it would be dangerous to cover the drivers cab in protective plastic sheets as they would obscure the drivers being able to see his/her blindside.

    Issuing drivers with ffp2 masks could also be safety issue too. From what I gather and I'm not expert is that these masks can make it more difficult as well as tiring to breathe through also ther could be issues if the driver is wearing glasses with fogging up. I for one certainly would want my full breathing ability whilst in charge of a double decker bus full of passengers. Really the most effective piece of PPE that should be issued to drivers would be alcohol based hand sanitiser in the absence of much needed sanitary facilities. A much more effective tool than gloves, masks or plastic barriers.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Both excellent points.
    GT89 wrote: »
    One thing I will say is that any such measures taken to protect drivers and passengers from the virus also have to take safety into account. For example it would be dangerous to cover the drivers cab in protective plastic sheets as they would obscure the drivers being able to see his/her blindside.

    I hadn't though of that, very good point, then perhaps the seal off the front of the bus completely so, like in the above link and passengers only use the middle door.

    That has issues too of course, no fares can be taken, how to deal with wheelchairs, people entering/exiting through one door pass close to one another, some stops might be difficult to operate. But then there is probably no perfect solution to this, just what is least bad.
    GT89 wrote: »
    Issuing drivers with ffp2 masks could also be safety issue too. From what I gather and I'm not expert is that these masks can make it more difficult as well as tiring to breathe through also ther could be issues if the driver is wearing glasses with fogging up. I for one certainly would want my full breathing ability whilst in charge of a double decker bus full of passengers. Really the most effective piece of PPE that should be issued to drivers would be alcohol based hand sanitiser in the absence of much needed sanitary facilities. A much more effective tool than gloves, masks or plastic barriers.

    ffp2 masks can come in all sorts of different types. From the cheapest types that would certainly have the issues you describe, to high end ones which have exhaling valves etc. that are designed to be used by people all day long in the likes of certain factories and hospitals.

    Having said that, the practical issue at the moment, is that these high quality masks are pretty much impossible to get at the moment and any supply that does come in needs to be directed to frontline medical staff who would be at greatest risk of exposure.

    There would also be the issue of you need different sizes to fit different faces and proper training on how to use them and properly put them on and off. You are correct, it probably isn't too practical for drivers in general.

    As you say though, buses should certainly be getting deep cleaned, including the cab and cleaning products and hand sanitzer available to staff in the cab at all times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Someone had cling film on the screen I had to remove it as everything was a blurr.....


    To be honest covering the cab and blocking door will make no odd at all....

    If someone farts or eats or opens even a bottle of vodka upstairs down the back you can smell it ...

    What I would suggest is people open windows and obviously spread out.

    Be careful where you touch etc.

    As a driver yes I'm a little worried but not panicking yet anyway.

    I'm cleaning the cab before use as are many others but was in work yesterday and all wipes, new hand sanitizer bottles to be given out gone and most gel dispenser empty....

    It's definitely worrying what we have ahead.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    If someone farts or eats or opens even a bottle of vodka upstairs down the back you can smell it ...

    Just FYI, it isn't airborne in that manner. It is carried in water droplets of coughs and sneezes. Which is why the advice of 1 to 2m's distancing.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    From the announcement thread:
    p_haugh wrote: »
    Dublin Bus have just announced that they are providing a shuttle bus service
    between Croke Park and the Mater Hospital for front-line staff.

    https://twitter.com/dublinbusnews/status/1240293730772496384?s=20

    I just wanted to say, great work and support DB.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭john boye


    Saw a bus this evening that was busy downstairs (almost all seats downstairs with at least one pax sitting and a good few standees) and only about 7 seats taken upstairs. Amazing how even a global pandemic can't make people change this habit.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    With privates cutting services we are seeing the benefits of PSO legislation more than ever. They say they are cutting service for health and safety reasons but really it is no longer commercially viable for them at this moment and time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭stop


    Was stuck behind a 17 trundling at 30kph from Terenure to KCR around 6pm the other night..

    I realise they are just trying to maintain headway, and on a 'normal' day this would be fast for this route, but is this really the best solution?


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GT89 wrote: »
    With privates cutting services we are seeing the benefits of PSO legislation more than ever. They say they are cutting service for health and safety reasons but really it is no longer commercially viable for them at this moment and time.

    Nothing to do with public versus private. Luas is running, Go-Ahead are running, etc.

    The privates are mostly closed down, as colleges and airport/tourist business makes up probably over 90% of the business. Bus Eireann's school bus service is shutdown too.

    Obviously commuter services in a city is a completely different type of service with different clientele. Passengers numbers are down considerably of course there too, but not as much as intercity would be for example.

    Either way, the government will need to decide on what services they want to keep going during this time, which are the most important to the running of the economy and they will then need to heavily subsidise those companies. It doesn't matter what background they are from, public or private, they will need a massive injection of cash from the government to keep going. DB/BE can go bankrupt, just as easily as GoAhead/Transdev. And the government can support them all just as easily.

    The usual rules around state aid, etc. are likely to be suspended for this crisis. A lot of the usual rules and regulations in many areas will be. It will all be about keeping vital services running.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GT89 wrote: »
    With privates cutting services we are seeing the benefits of PSO legislation more than ever. They say they are cutting service for health and safety reasons but really it is no longer commercially viable for them at this moment and time.

    I'm not so sure that any of the state companies really want to be running at the current levels.

    There was a statement earlier in the week from one of the state companies that essentially said they will run until there is a directive or a change in legislation that says they don't have to, which sounds like they're saying that they are running as they are required to, rather than making an active choice to do so.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    bk wrote: »
    Nothing to do with public versus private. Luas is running, Go-Ahead are running, etc.

    The privates are mostly closed down, as colleges and airport/tourist business makes up probably over 90% of the business. Bus Eireann's school bus service is shutdown too.

    Obviously commuter services in a city is a completely different type of service with different clientele. Passengers numbers are down considerably of course there too, but not as much as intercity would be for example.

    Either way, the government will need to decide on what services they want to keep going during this time, which are the most important to the running of the economy and they will then need to heavily subsidise those companies. It doesn't matter what background they are from, public or private, they will need a massive injection of cash from the government to keep going. DB/BE can go bankrupt, just as easily as GoAhead/Transdev. And the government can support them all just as easily.

    The usual rules around state aid, etc. are likely to be suspended for this crisis. A lot of the usual rules and regulations in many areas will be. It will all be about keeping vital services running.

    No I was more talking about PSO vs commercial rather than public vs private. Go-Ahead and Transdev are both operating contracts for the state in the same way DB, IE and BE are.

    If Go-Ahead or Transdev were to go bankrupt they would not be bailed out by the government in the same way DB or BE would be. Their services would be put back out to tender for a new company to allow a new company to take them over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,654 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Anyone explain the sudden spike in "operational issues" i.e. no drivers available for IE services. Is it a case of they are just cutting costs from overtime expenses with demand low or a genuine absenteeism.

    NTA needs to allow them reduce commuter services soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭Better Than Christ


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Anyone explain the sudden spike in "operational issues" i.e. no drivers available for IE services. Is it a case of they are just cutting costs from overtime expenses with demand low or a genuine absenteeism.

    NTA needs to allow them reduce commuter services soon.

    Like all industries right now, there's a lot of genuine absenteeism. That could include people with childcare issues, people with coughs and colds who've been told by their doctors to self-isolate, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Anyone explain the sudden spike in "operational issues" i.e. no drivers available for IE services. Is it a case of they are just cutting costs from overtime expenses with demand low or a genuine absenteeism.

    NTA needs to allow them reduce commuter services soon.

    Staff illness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    stop wrote: »
    Was stuck behind a 17 trundling at 30kph from Terenure to KCR around 6pm the other night..

    I realise they are just trying to maintain headway, and on a 'normal' day this would be fast for this route, but is this really the best solution?

    Not a solution at all,or even recognising reality,but all operators are watching the NTA's witholding policy these days.

    Interestingly,this issue has been raised at the top level within the NTA,who responded that,currently,all Contractual requirements remain in place-No derogation is permitted.

    Eventually,as with most real-world situations,those in the Command Bunker will be forced to accept what is going on,but that may take a while given the breadth of the NTA's responsibilities.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭Ohmeha


    My usual rush hour DART has now been cut from 6 carriages to 4 carriages (smaller capacity newer spec) and everyone well within 1 metre if each other with the usual scum still coughing into open air

    Firing off a complaint to irishrail and the HSE this evening


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    bk wrote: »
    Just FYI, it isn't airborne in that manner. It is carried in water droplets of coughs and sneezes. Which is why the advice of 1 to 2m's distancing.

    No I understand that was just saying, think of it this way if someone sneezes or coughs with a draft it could well come to the driver, I'm not opening my window until it's past as no messing if I were to open it while driving everything comes past us in the cab, unfortunately I've had people cough and sneeze and honestly there's nothing worse then smelling and tasting someone else's sneeze....

    I've been spat on numerous times over the years too....


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Inspectors were out this morning doing surveys!!!

    Easily done by giving a call to any number of drivers or checking the wayfarer tonight and so on....

    They are talking about cutting services to Saturday at the very least and if not may even be a Sunday service....

    Obviously having a full service with euros on is nuts, even the 142 for example wasn't carrying as college closed.

    It's quite worrying and seeing what is happening in Italy there is nothing to stop that happening in the UK and then spread worse here.

    I really feel for those sick, their families, especially those that have lost their lives too.

    There are huge changes on the way and so many will lose jobs, it's very sad....

    I really hope that as a nation people can come up with ways of helping each other out.


    We could come out of this better if we could get life back to normal asap but of course that's an issue at this very moment.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0319/1124204-public-transport-nta-figures/

    Article is a bit confusing, but it seems user numbers are down 70 to 75%, however they also say:
    However, it is believed that the NTA and health authorities want to keep services at existing levels as the fewer numbers using public transport will allow greater levels of social distancing.

    Which seems ideal too me from a health perspective, but will obviously will require a big extra cash injection from the government to support these companies.

    However perhaps a modified Saturday schedule, taking into account faster journey times, would make sense. To be honest, there is likely to be lots calling in sick because they are ordered to self isolate or because of childcare issues. So they maybe forced either way.

    Ideally if maybe they can give some staff a full week off with full pay, but on standby to come in if others are sick. As I said extraordinary measures maybe necessary to keep vital services running.

    BTW on another forum, there was a picture of a Dublin Bus, where the driver had sealed off the front of the bus and was only using the middle door.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Some cross border train cancellations from next week:-

    https://www.irishrail.ie/news/revised-dublin-belfast-enterprise-timetable-from-m
    Mondays to Saturdays

    06:45 Belfast Lanyon Place to Dublin Connolly cancelled.

    16:05 Belfast Lanyon Place to Dublin Connolly cancelled.

    20:05 Belfast Lanyon Place to Dublin Connolly cancelled.

     
    09:30 Dublin Connolly to Belfast Lanyon Place cancelled.

    13:20 Dublin Connolly to Belfast Lanyon Place cancelled.

    20:50 Dublin Connolly to Belfast Lanyon Place cancelled.

     

    Sundays

    11:05 Belfast Lanyon Place to Dublin Connolly cancelled.

    14:00 Dublin Connolly to Belfast Lanyon Place cancelled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭VG31


    bk wrote: »
    BTW on another forum, there was a picture of a Dublin Bus, where the driver had sealed off the front of the bus and was only using the middle door.

    That's what they're doing officially in Berlin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭Better Than Christ


    bk wrote: »
    To be honest, there is likely to be lots calling in sick because they are ordered to self isolate or because of childcare issues. So they maybe forced either way.

    At the moment, Go Ahead is just about covering the absenteeism - they've had inspectors, controllers, operations managers and various other office staff (basically anyone in possession of a D licence and up-to-date CPC) out driving buses this week. It's likely to get a whole lot worse in the coming weeks. I think they were counting on the NTA bringing in a reduced timetable in the coming days, but that's not happening now until at least the 30th of March.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Nitelink has been pulled until further notice
    https://www.dublinbus.ie/DublinBus-Mobile/News/?depth=1&srcid=8612


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    thomasj wrote: »
    Nitelink has been pulled until further notice
    https://www.dublinbus.ie/DublinBus-Mobile/News/?depth=1&srcid=8612

    Understandable enough with pubs and clubs shut. I wonder in time could we see a reduction in operating hours or even removal of the 24hr service on the 15 and 41. Anyway I can only see the current sitaution putting any plans on hold for anymore 24hr services or any future plans for that matter.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    At the moment, Go Ahead is just about covering the absenteeism - they've had inspectors, controllers, operations managers and various other office staff (basically anyone in possession of a D licence and up-to-date CPC) out driving buses this week. It's likely to get a whole lot worse in the coming weeks. I think they were counting on the NTA bringing in a reduced timetable in the coming days, but that's not happening now until at least the 30th of March.

    A lot of that work would still have to be covered I would imagine. AVLS still has to be monitored for example it's not going to be a beneficial long term strategy. One thing for certain with this crisis is that nothing can be ruled out up to and including in this instance a complete shutdown of public transport. Things can change any day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭Bandito909


    I wish to god the passengers on the buses would take their rubbish with them. Ok, we're told to cough into tissue papers etc... But seriously, it's not ok to throw them on the seats/floor with this going.

    We know the virus can live on pretty much any surface... Come on, take your **** off the bus with you. Keep the fcuking bus clean you bunch of savages!


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,196 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    NTA have been told by HSE that they have to maintain current service levels at the moment in order to maintain social distancing. They dont want a reduced service meaning more people in close proximity


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    NTA have been told by HSE that they have to maintain current service levels at the moment in order to maintain social distancing. They dont want a reduced service meaning more people in close proximity

    True but there certainly does not need to be the likes of term time only departures or any sort of peak time extra services. I think a Saturday service would be reasonable levels to both maintain social distancing and not run with over capacity following recent revisions many routes now operate at the same frequency on Saturdays as they do off peak during the week.

    You also have to take into account routes like the 161 and 44b which provide a vital link to the communities they serve but don't run at weekends.


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