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Circular Number: 0037/2020

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24567…22

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    #32
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0522/1140111-cabinet-politics/

    Fancy being a guinea pig in September ........


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    #33
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭amacca


    History Queen wrote: »
    TUI's latest statement:

    https://www.tui.ie/news/vindication-of-tui-position-on-comprehensive-indemnity.13760.html

    I note the use of the word vindication....does that mean that the TUI are claiming they were correct all along?...that the indemnity they had got was sufficient and the ASTis action wasn't needed?

    or are they trying to avoid egg on their face?

    My reading of it was the indemnity wasnt sufficient and the ASTI were right to fulfill their role and stand up for their members...

    What do ye think?


    I also noted this "In the course of the TUI’s ongoing engagement with the Department of Education and Skills regarding the use for this year (only) of a system of Calculated Grades, the Union sought and secured a number of specific protections for staff involved in the school-based generation of estimated marks." .....................notice the only is in brackets....I appreciate it perhaps may be necessary while covid is around but could this also be leaving the door slightly ajar for more of this craic going into the future?


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    #34
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    amacca wrote: »
    I note the use of the word vindication....does that mean that the TUI are claiming they were correct all along?...that the indemnity they had got was sufficient and the ASTis action wasn't needed?

    or are they trying to avoid egg on their face?

    My reading of it was the indemnity wasnt sufficient and the ASTI were right to fulfill their role and stand up for their members...

    What do ye think?

    I had the same thought process as you. I'm reslly not sure what to think.


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    #35
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭amacca


    Im of the strong suspicion that they haven't been vindicated at all and if it wasnt for the ASTI seeking clarification there would have existed the possibility of teachers bearing some portion of legal costs if a legal action was taken against them.....

    If that is the case it should be made clear and attempts to airbrush it with crefully chosen words like vindication should be seen for what they are.

    I would be interested to hear what others more informed than me have to say however as I suppose I really dont know either.


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    #36
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    amacca wrote: »
    Im of the strong suspicion that they haven't been vindicated at all and if it wasnt for the ASTI seeking clarification there would have existed the possibility of teachers bearing some portion of legal costs if a legal action was taken against them.....

    If that is the case it should be made clear and attempts to airbrush it with crefully chosen words like vindication should be seen for what they are.

    I would be interested to hear what others more informed than me have to say however as I suppose I really dont know either.

    Whereas I was leaning the other way, that the ASTI had misunderstood either the wording or the advice that they got on it and all has been explained/clarified for them today. I mean the wording hasn't changed from what was published yesterday, yet now they are happy.

    Like I say the above was what I thought until another poster said the following on a different thread: (see attached screenshot). Now I'm not sure what to think.


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    #37
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    So DES claim the indemnity has not changed. TUI support that claim. ASTI say necessary clear assurances and clarifications were provided today. I think they can all be telling truth. But I feel a lot happier thanks to the ASTI actions.


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    #38
    ethical
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭ethical


    Its laughable and rather sad looking at the TUI website with regards to Legal indemnity:

    "Clarification in respect of all issues raised by the TUI is being provided."

    So they jumped the gun and sold their members while the ASTI were more cautious....and guess who is getting the bad press over all this.....of course its the ASTI!
    The TUI didnt question and ran to the media and had half a story! The fcukin Media did not even check the TUI wesite,if they did they would have seen the half baked effort.....that while they (TUI) were OK with it they had sought clarification from DEPT and this only came about because the ASTI played hard ball and got bad press in the process.The feckin TUI are a fcukin headline seeking dose and they feckin Media love them.The truth came about by way of the good work done by the ASTI and as posters know I do not give credit only when it is due and on this ocassion the ASTI has made a potential bad case much much better for their teachers and indeed all teachers with the full legal indemnity.


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    #39
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    History Queen wrote: »
    ETB wide policy in our ETB. All teacher journals to be destroyed at end of school year or preferably not used at all. We do have VSWARE which has records of house exams/behaviour/attendance and homework.

    That means you have to go to UK every year with a hammer and destroy their server.


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    #40
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Blondini wrote: »
    I note the word 'evidence' makes 65 appearances in the document.

    I still don't know if my record of results of assessments in my teacher journal qualify as evidence without the students' physical piece of work.

    I would love clarity on this as it would have a significant impact on some individual grades.

    Anybody got any insight on this :confused:

    Your over thinking it, everything is evidence, it all goes to form your final 'calculation'.
    There will be no court case where you have to submit physical evidence. Appeal will only be based on checking the numbers entered or the school past stats.


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    #41
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Training video up

    https://vimeo.com/421625482

    If you've the document read there's nothing new in it


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    #42
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Training video up

    https://vimeo.com/421625482

    If you've the document read there's nothing new in it

    Where did you get this?


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    #43
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    45 minutes
    Another croke park hour for next year when they are all taken into account retrospectively.....


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    #44
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Where did you get this?

    Emailed to us today by school


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    #45
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Emailed to us today by school

    We got it too but with a caveat that they don't know the source


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    #46
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    We got it too but with a caveat that they don't know the source

    ... as if someone would create it in their spare time. Lol


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    #47
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Treppen wrote: »
    ... as if someone would create it in their spare time. Lol

    Can you imagine :D:D


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    #48
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Treppen wrote: »
    ... as if someone would create it in their spare time. Lol

    She does have that 'Leigh anois go curamach...' type voice alright :D


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    #49
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Student portal is opening on Tuesday. So realistically you can't submit grades to school until Wednesday at the earliest.


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    #50
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,640 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    When is this process meant to be completed???


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    #51
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Student portal is opening on Tuesday. So realistically you can't submit grades to school until Wednesday at the earliest.

    I haven’t enough information to even start it
    To do this properly I will be asking the school to provide me with
    - Subject dept analysis for each of the last 3 years
    - results of my own LC classes for each of the last 3 years
    - ideally the Mock results of those LC classes for the last 3 years also
    I will be asking for them to be sent on Monday morning

    After that I really don’t see it taking more than this week.
    Tough decisions will have to be made. But they just will have to be made end of story .

    The subject alignment meeting is just really seeking reassurances from colleagues .
    Perhaps looking at the total number of students at each grade across all classes to make sure we have not gone too crazy with any particular grade . We do not have to rank them all together which was what I feared first . So again that should not take more than an hour .


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    #52
    LW2018
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭LW2018


    Hi,

    Where was this announced may I ask? I've parked the document to one side for now so may have missed some information. Thanks


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    #53
    LW2018
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭LW2018


    LW2018 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Where was this announced may I ask? I've parked the document to one side for now so may have missed some information. Thanks

    I was referring to the student Portal... wasn't clear in my question. Thanks


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    #54
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Regarding previous discussion (thread which shall not be named) on GDPR and unintended use of data. This calculated grading is an opt in process and we discussed how that would probably cover the legalities of using school assessment data for this different purpose. However! What about students who don't opt in? Their data is still to be used to estimate a percentage and rank the class. They must be included in the ranking. Now, I completely understand why they should be included in ranking to avoid skewing the standardisation. But is that really ok under GDPR?

    Very few students will opt out, and while I'm undoubtedly stereotyping heavily here, but I imagine the type that would, and who will sit the exams to achieve their grade based purely on merit, are also the most likely to be very principled, very informed of their rights, and possibly unhappy to have their data used to affect their classmates' results. Perhaps also likely to be the type who would enjoy sticking it to the DES if unhappy with this whole debacle?


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    #55
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    km79 wrote: »
    I haven’t enough information to even start it
    To do this properly I will be asking the school to provide me with
    - Subject dept analysis for each of the last 3 years
    - results of my own LC classes for each of the last 3 years
    - ideally the Mock results of those LC classes for the last 3 years also
    I will be asking for them to be sent on Monday morning .

    That's a big ask. Do you not have these records yourself? Admittedly our subject department analysis is on the school system and not accessible from home I don't think, we have the PDST templates filled in from previous years.


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    #56
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,640 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    When does this have to be done by ? I think others have raised the issue of printing. Have this forms once printed to be returned by post or by hand if you don't go near the school?!


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    #57
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,640 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    If you don't get the grade you wanted can you then do the exam in Nov ??


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    #58
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,640 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Student portal is opening on Tuesday. So realistically you can't submit grades to school until Wednesday at the earliest.

    There is no date announced. Most schools have to have a meeting of teachers. Besides the alignment meeting.
    There is also mention of some training. Thus I can't see these being finalized until well into June.


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    #59
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    That's a big ask. Do you not have these records yourself? Admittedly our subject department analysis is on the school system and not accessible from home I don't think, we have the PDST templates filled in from previous years.

    Long story short no due to GDPR fears.
    But the school should have them . I can manage without them anyway but would be handy .

    We do the subject analysis at start of every year too but is given back into office .
    So I assume they will also be available Monday


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    #60
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    If you don't get the grade you wanted can you then do the exam in Nov ??

    My understanding is yes.

    And, if you do get the grade you are still entitled.


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    #61
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    There is no date announced. Most schools have to have a meeting of teachers. Besides the alignment meeting.
    There is also mention of some training. Thus I can't see these being finalized until well into June.

    “Training” is the 45 min video linked earlier
    If all the data needed is available to teachers Monday there is no reason the teachers side of it won’t be finished by Friday.
    I’ve mine on Excel sheet already .
    Easy to look at various averages , rank highest to lowest etc .
    Handy to look at various things look that when making your mind up .


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