The Bus to keep or not to keep?

mikedragon32 · 23-02-2011 2:10pm

IntheWood wrote: »

Mike - If a survey on here is as useless as you say then I would have thought that the only real way of determining whether or not residents want the service is to ask them.

This appears not to have happened.

I stand by the fact that the poll here is not of any use. There is no way to verify the identity of anyone who voted, nor is there any way to verify who is making comments on this thread, unless they choose to identify themselves, therefore it cannot seriously be considered as a means to measure support for the service. Consider also, 72 votes, even if they were all from bona fide residents, is hardly a fair representation of 1500 units. As for the lack of consultation, that's hardly my fault!

Take it up with your residents' committee who must have been engaged in the process of determining the usage.

judy1 · 23-02-2011 2:48pm

As most of us know from reading these threads that the driver did'nt know anything about the bus been axed. That was up till last Friday. Does any one find it a little strange that he has not been driving the bus the last few days! Is he gone as well? And the letter that was meant to go out to us in the post about the service going, WHERE IS IT? I still have not got one. :mad:

I'm still confused about this whole thing. Is it just a joke gone out of control?

Can any one give us a straight answer? Is the bus staying or going? Some of us need to find alternative transport.:mad:

Dont tell us to use Dublin Bus, because most of us know that they dont run to meet train times. And Dont like coming out in bad weather.:(

annf · 23-02-2011 3:07pm

Sean in on a weeks holiday because his kids have mid term break, he is due back on Monday. I emailed the management company today and they emailed me a copy of the letter they are sending to all residents. The bus will no longer be running after the 31st March. In the letter they suggest using Dublin Bus or the Aircoach - have they a clue what is really going on?

cavemeister · 23-02-2011 3:09pm

@Annf
Could you attach a copy of that letter to this thread ? Haven't got a copy yet and interesting to see what it says!

annf · 23-02-2011 3:12pm

Letter attached as requested

hamstervision · 23-02-2011 3:39pm

Having now read the (in)famous letter, I still have two big questions about the whole thing.

Why (or even how) was this decision made without at least holding an EGM or at least inviting residents to some meeting and notifying them that this was on the agenda?
Given that the first day without any shuttle bus service will be April 1st, are we quite sure this isn't just an overly-elaborate April Fools joke?

This is an issue that effects a lot of people and, in my opinion, it's been handled incredibly badly. How were residents only made aware of this after the decision was made for them?

audreyp · 23-02-2011 3:44pm

I can't believe the bus is gone. Is anyone from the commitee reading this thread? I don't use it at all but my husband does. Dublin Bus isn't a real alternative as it is simply not reliable so now he faces an extra 50 minutes a day commute with the walk as we don't have a second car.

The bus was a deciding factor in our decision to buy in Charlesland too!

Plastik · 23-02-2011 4:19pm

Parent Planning Permission for Charlesland is Ref: 014910 if anyone can get there to check it out.

matt-dublin · 23-02-2011 5:24pm

erm refused permission for a creche and community centre in charlesland by Zapi?
http://www.wicklow.ie/eplan41/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=014910&LASiteID=0

later approved with appeal along with 1349 dwellings?

judy1 · 23-02-2011 6:39pm

I just had a quick look over the letter regarding the bus finishing up in march. I still cant belive it!

Part of it states As Follows " we've also seen consistant increases in the cost of the shuttle bus. "

What a load of Bull S... :mad: from my understanding the cost of the bus service came down quite a lot from 2009 when the new bus company took over. So last year 2010 the shuttle bus ran cheeper than it ever did. Did we see a drop in our yearly fee's? dont think i seen much of it.

And if its to go up to what it says it will..... its till running cheeper than it did pre 2009...

Im not even going to think about it anymore. We are losing our good shuttle bus and its the cost for the blame. And some people not paying there fees. I bet our overall fees wont come down that much. I dont think I'll bother paying any fees this year myself..

Good bye bus.. Hello costly car..:eek:

LEIN · 23-02-2011 6:44pm

I truly find it incredible that this can happen with out any real consultation from the people of Charlesland.

Its our money and if we want to spend it on a bus so be it!

mikedragon32 · 23-02-2011 7:02pm

Damo9090 wrote: »

Its our money and if we want to spend it on a bus so be it!

If YOU want to spend your money on a bus, so be it. I don't.

Maybe everyone who uses/wants it should club together the cost of the bus?

trad · 23-02-2011 7:06pm

Has anyone approached a bus operator to run the service without the management company?

I don't know how many people use the service but if 120 people paid €12 per week @ 48 weeks each, that's a shade short of €70K.

If the coach is hired in by a person other than the bus operator, ie the bus operator does not collect fares, then a route licence is not needed much like the current service operated by the management company.

matt-dublin · 23-02-2011 7:08pm

That's a good idea..... That'll probably work out at about 300 euros each for the bus.

Or people could car pool to the park n ride or work?

Regardless it's gone now anyway.

matt-dublin · 23-02-2011 7:11pm

trad wrote: »

Has anyone approached a bus operator to run the service without the management company?

I don't know how many people use the service but if 120 people paid €12 per week @ 48 weeks each, that's a shade short of €70K.

If the coach is hired in by a person other than the bus operator, ie the bus operator does not collect fares, then a route licence is not needed much like the current service operated by the management company.

I suspect you'll end up with a similar issue asthe management companies. You would also need to set up a company for liability etc. You would be collecting fees for a fee based service. Also you would probably end up with a deficit unless you got everyone to pay up front for the year

darter · 23-02-2011 7:58pm

mikedragon32 wrote: »

If YOU want to spend your money on a bus, so be it. I don't.

Maybe everyone who uses/wants it should club together the cost of the bus?

I'm not a Charlesland resident, and don't use the bus, but I feel compelled to comment about the manner in which this is being discussed here.

In every community there are facilities that some of us avail of, and other facilities than others avail of. But the community functions as a community because it is communal sharing of costs that make the facilities possible in the first place.

For example, not everyone goes to the library, yet we all contribute towards it in our taxes as we see it as a benefit to the community. I don't use the library - should I get back from WCC my contribution towards it? No! Certainly not. A community with a library is a richer community, and one without is a poorer community.

Same with those who live on the ground floor paying for elevators etc. etc. etc. Sharing costs for a whole set of provided facilities and services for the benefit of all.

Same for this bus. It's cancelling will make Charlesland a poorer community. I'm sure mikedragon that you will complain loudly if you find the value of your property is significantly decreased precisely because there is no shuttle to the DART. And that will be the case.

The comment in the letter about the aircoach service is really very disingenuous. The aircoach is forbidden to let anyone off except at the airport on its way into town, and is forbidden from picking anyone up except at the airport on its way out of town - it does not have a general public transport licence. So the aircoach is certainly no substitute at all for the shuttle bus.

From what I read here, your management company has not done its homework at all, but is making unilateral decisions. You can overturn those decisions, but it will take concerted effort by a lot of you. Complaining here does nothing at all. Form yourselves into an action committee and go around knocking on doors and get a petition going. You have a month to do this in. Good luck!

matt-dublin · 23-02-2011 8:33pm

If that's how you feel maybe you should speak to the next canvasser who arrives on your the door.

I believe there's something happening on friday that might be able to push through a local bus service for commuters

threetrouts · 23-02-2011 8:44pm

Got my bill for management fees yesterday my fees were down almost 25% and this is down to the bus ceasing at the end of March. Fair play they have passed it on immediately.Hopefully we'll see a further decrease next year as we had to pay for the first quarter.Fair play to all concerned a 25% reduction in these times is most welcome when everything else seems to be rising fuel insurance health mortgages.Thanks to all the respective committes that had to make this difficult decision.

Finnegan Bray · 23-02-2011 9:11pm

To those of you that value/ use the bus link from Charlesland - As owner of a local bus company and as I am running for election on Friday as an independent candidate in Wicklow (vote Finnegan Number one!) the cancellation of the Charlesland shuttle has been brought to my attention today.

It is my understanding that the provision of a bus link is part of the planning permission for Charlesland and so I have started to investigate this (as requested by those who brought it to my attention). I will let you know how I get on asap and will do everything I can to ensure that Charlesland commuters & residents stay connected to the dart (as they expected when they made the decision to live there). This is a classic case of some of the challenges we all face -diminishing budgets, adhering to planning permissions, ensuring decent quality of life, supporting communities - but there has to be a sensible and viable solution. Will get back to you as soon as I get all the facts.

threetrouts · 23-02-2011 10:25pm

Thats all well and good Eugene but there is no money there for it now the management companies have removed it from their budgets and invoiced accordingly.I can assure you the planning issues and legalities were thoroughilablely checked with An Bord Pleanala as they not Wicklow CC gave the planning permision for Charlesland before any decisions were made.Perhaps you could apply for a licence and run the route on a fare basis surely you have coaches available as Dublin bus are looking at something that could make one of their routes more viable.Ive just been informed they will make a decision on friday

mikedragon32 · 23-02-2011 10:40pm

Darter, don't comment on what I may or may not feel about the potential drop in the value of my home. You know very little about me, so don't presume that you do. I have no intention of moving any time soon, thereby nullifying any worry about the value of my property.

Folks, I agree that losing the service isn't the optimal solution and to be fair the letter from the COSC reads like it was poorly considered and rather than pouring oil on the water, it's thrown petrol on a fire. But something's gotta give.

mikedragon32 · 23-02-2011 10:43pm

threetrouts wrote: »

Thats all well and good Eugene but there is no money there for it now the management companies have removed it from their budgets and invoiced accordingly.I can assure you the planning issues and legalities were thoroughilablely checked with An Bord Pleanala as they not Wicklow CC gave the planning permision for Charlesland before any decisions were made.Perhaps you could apply for a licence and run the route on a fare basis surely you have coaches available as Dublin bus are looking at something that could make one of their routes more viable.Ive just been informed they will make a decision on friday

Threetrouts, if you're talking about the changes DB are planning for Greystones, it's mostly the 84x and it's not looking good.

I do agree with you that the decision wouldn't have been made without due consideration of the planning conditions that imposed the shuttle in the first place.

grey_newbie · 23-02-2011 10:45pm

I am one of the commuters that is appalled by the decision to get rid of the bus. I expect this intiative was driven by the Charlesland Residents Committee as I know there are a lot of the committee members against the bus as they don't use it.

The managment company didn't make this decision off their own backs, there was obviously discussions going on in the background and the committee must of been engaged on this, the members certainly won't be getting my vote next year, unless, they step up and actually carry out proper due diligence and verify if there is a valid enough reason to cancel this service.

A quick survey of people getting on the bus hardly determines whether the bus should be kept or not.

I believe a survey with some simple questions on your use of the bus should be carried out in the estate on every house and the majority wins. Was there not a survey carried out a couple of years back on a number of topics?? If I remember correctly a note was dropped in our door on something..

I appreciate the fees will drop if the service goes, however with the bus gone and no feasible alternative I will need to purchase a second car and don't think I will have the budget for this years fees with the costs of running a car - I'm sure there are plenty of others that will need to purchase more cars and the estate is ugly enough with the amount of cars outside houses.

I did write to the mgnt company and complain but i haven't heard back. I would be willing to assist or partake in any petition or movement to carry out a proper opinion poll to ascertain whether the service should be kept or not, on the basis, that if the results show the majority are in favour of keeping the bus, it will actually be kept. If the majority do believe the service should go, well then I'll have to live with that...

darter · 23-02-2011 11:00pm

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Darter, don't comment on what I may or may not feel about the potential drop in the value of my home. You know very little about me, so don't presume that you do. I have no intention of moving any time soon, thereby nullifying any worry about the value of my property.

You are certainly correct mikedragon, I know nothing about you, except how you portray yourself on this board.

Annasopra · 23-02-2011 11:04pm

I rarely used the bus service but would support retaining it. The huge lack of consultation on this is disgraceful

mikedragon32 · 23-02-2011 11:08pm

darter wrote: »

You are certainly correct mikedragon, I know nothing about you, except how you portray yourself on this board.

Good for you.

threetrouts · 23-02-2011 11:20pm

grey_newbie wrote: »

I am one of the commuters that is appalled by the decision to get rid of the bus. I expect this intiative was driven by the Charlesland Residents Committee as I know there are a lot of the committee members against the bus as they don't use it.

The managment company didn't make this decision off their own backs, there was obviously discussions going on in the background and the committee must of been engaged on this, the members certainly won't be getting my vote next year, unless, they step up and actually carry out proper due diligence and verify if there is a valid enough reason to cancel this service.

A quick survey of people getting on the bus hardly determines whether the bus should be kept or not.

I believe a survey with some simple questions on your use of the bus should be carried out in the estate on every house and the majority wins. Was there not a survey carried out a couple of years back on a number of topics?? If I remember correctly a note was dropped in our door on something..

I appreciate the fees will drop if the service goes, however with the bus gone and no feasible alternative I will need to purchase a second car and don't think I will have the budget for this years fees with the costs of running a car - I'm sure there are plenty of others that will need to purchase more cars and the estate is ugly enough with the amount of cars outside houses.

I did write to the mgnt company and complain but i haven't heard back. I would be willing to assist or partake in any petition or movement to carry out a proper opinion poll to ascertain whether the service should be kept or not, on the basis, that if the results show the majority are in favour of keeping the bus, it will actually be kept. If the majority do believe the service should go, well then I'll have to live with that...

I agree with you but however as mikedragon pointed out somethings gotta give I know at our agm this year it was brought up as it was in the last 3 agms and it was put to a vote 93% said it should go and were unwilling to contribute to it anymore --Its minuted ----so thats one management co that was overwhelmingly for losing it.Also it was not on a whim it was discontinued the needs of all were taken into account from what I've been told its been under consideration for 3 years now.Finally was 100 euro extra to be added to everybodys fees this year to retain it justified ?????-which cant be done now as it has legally been removed Are we not grateful of the 100 to 250 reduction depending on your property which we have already got even before its discontinued.
We are always banging on about management fees but a reduction must be unique anywhere in the country.I know it will cause about 150 people (the service was only 15% to 20% full head counts taken as another poster said only 12 on a 65 seater on a run the other nigh.I ve been on it with less at 300 euros a day !!!!!!!)extra hardship but it will be a welcome relief to hard pressed others.BTW I used it every day and am sad to see it gone but I have to say paying a management fee equal to one months mortgage was sad too now its 3 weeks mortgage or 2 months gas or electricity paid for.My final comment on topic getting new tyres for bike and rain gear for April and hopefully will lose a few pounds on the 5 minute cycle or 15 minute walk.

grey_newbie · 23-02-2011 11:33pm

threetrouts wrote: »

I agree with you but however as mikedragon pointed out somethings gotta give I know at our agm this year it was brought up as it was in the last 3 agms and it was put to a vote 93% said it should go and were unwilling to contribute to it anymore --Its minuted ----so thats one management co that was overwhelmingly for losing it.Also it was not on a whim it was discontinued the needs of all were taken into account from what I've been told its been under consideration for 3 years now.Finally was 100 euro extra to be added to everybodys fees this year to retain it justified ?????-which cant be done now as it has legally been removed Are we not grateful of the 100 to 250 reduction depending on your property which we have already got even before its discontinued.
We are always banging on about management fees but a reduction must be unique anywhere in the country.I know it will cause about 150 people (the service was only 15% to 20% full head counts taken as another poster said only 12 on a 65 seater on a run the other nigh.I ve been on it with less at 300 euros a day !!!!!!!)extra hardship but it will be a welcome relief to hard pressed others.BTW I used it every day and am sad to see it gone but I have to say paying a management fee equal to one months mortgage was sad too now its 3 weeks mortgage or 2 months gas or electricity paid for.My final comment on topic getting new tyres for bike and rain gear for April and hopefully will lose a few pounds on the 5 minute cycle or 15 minute walk.

I do believe the AGM had the majority of the vote to get rid of the service, however thats hardly a true reflection of the estate. There must of been no more than 20 people at the last AGM.

As a house owner I doubt I will see very little relief on my fees, it can't be more than €50.

My point is that proper process was not followed to make such a vital and critical decision. Although only 150 people may use the bus daily, there still needs to be a democratic decision on whether it should stay or go.
We are not talking about putting signs up on the greens against playing football (which was ridiculous), this is a deeply more pressing matter that is going to affect a lot of people and affect their monthly costs and commute time.

This has been dealt with really badly and the committee need to acknowledge this, they are there to represent the people of the estate and they are doing a very bad job of it now.

As I said, a proper opionion poll should be carried out. I have been involved on mgmt committees in estates before and a decision as biig as this would not have been done without consulting the people of the estate.

Also, I'm not sure how fast you walk but it takes 28 minutes from the dart station to my door, and thats in a hurry.

Don't Chute! · 23-02-2011 11:37pm

Anyone who ever actually walked down to the dart from Charlesland would know that it's not a 15 minute walk but rather a 25 minute walk. In rain and wind that is not nice.
The shuttle bus service was something that made this estate unique and a better place to live. I live in Seabourne View and it will make a grand total of 33 euro difference on the annual management fee of this apartment. This is a sum I would be very willing to pay even though I am not a daily user of the service.
Also, in the mornings there would be 95% occupancy on the bus if someone had bothered to check.
I agree that the lack of consultation with the residents is appalling. Also, in EVERY AGM we have previously had where the bus service has been brought up we were told by our representative on the Charlesland Resident's Committee that it could not be cancelled as it was part of the planning permission for the estate. This is not even mentioned in the circular sent out this week.

matt-dublin · 23-02-2011 11:58pm

Finnegans, there was a clause for a bus service in the planning permission but as far as I'm aware it was looked into bythe overall committee and found that because there was a public bus service in place now where previously there was none that there was no legal oblibation anymore

However, as the owner of a bus company and as you a lobbying for a seat in this constuitancy would you bot look at this as a business opportunity to run a scheduled pay as you use service between charlesland, Eden gate and the dart station?

Given that there is no private service being offered anymore there is now a case to lobby for the likes of Dublin bus who currently hold a license in Wicklow for a paid service.

I'm sure if all the users signed a petition and sent in emails and letter it would justify a service.

I think the adult journey on Dublin bus to greystones is like 1.20 or similar? At that 300 passengers a day, 5 days a week at peak hours equates to 90,000 over 50 weeks full service.

I think instead of arguing amongst ourselves here we should be using the election and the above numbers to try and justify a service here.

Previously dublin bus's argument for not providing adedicated service was because the private service was in place.

Anyone here work for Dublin bus?

The Bus to keep or not to keep?

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