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DART coming to Maynooth line in 2024

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    #32
    Orobhsa
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭Orobhsa


    The main report shows a number of vehicle options with two to be evaluated further along with ped bridge:

    https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/8b669bab-7b1c-4ef6-9667-d2494faae813/Preliminary-Options-Selection-Report_Main-Report.pdf

    P153

    * Option 1 – Pedestrian and Cycle Bridge;
    • Option 2 – Overbridge 200m to the east of the existing crossing; and
    • Option 4 – Overbridge 210m to the west of existing crossing.

    Option 2 goes from the new Lidl over canal to entrance to Luttlerstown Castle.
    Option 4 does a kind of S shape from West of entrance to Portersgate to around where the entrance to the allotments is.

    Congestion along the Clonsilla rd past St Mochta and over Dr Troy bridge is a disaster at peak times- schools back tomorrow.

    Also access to Beechpark, Westmanstown, St Catherines Park, Lucan would be much more inconvenient without a vehicular crossing.


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    #33
    Brock Turnpike
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Brock Turnpike


    Orobhsa wrote: »


    Also access to Beechpark, Westmanstown, St Catherines Park, Lucan would be much more inconvenient without a vehicular crossing.

    As someone mentioned earlier, that new road from Hansfield out to Lucan would be the alternative to all the places you mentioned


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    #34
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Brock Turnpike wrote: »
    Another welcome piece of news. Honestly don't know there hasn't been more accidents on that stretch of road given the mix of cyclists and impatient drivers using it. The amount of times I've witnessed drivers overtaking on/near bends is ridiculous.

    It was always a rat run. But then they built a ton of housing at one end and opened a load of access at the other end of it. That traffic has increased multi fold was a enviable result. It's a winding country road was never suitable for the volume of traffic now using it.


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    #35
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Brock Turnpike wrote: »
    As someone mentioned earlier, that new road from Hansfield out to Lucan would be the alternative to all the places you mentioned

    Traffic doesn't distribute and balance itself across many roads. As soon as you add capacity more traffic is drawn to it and fills it. People see a new road and decide to switch to using the car because of it.

    If you want to avoid traffic, you have to stop being traffic.


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    #36
    ongarboy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    Reading through the full Irish Rail document someone shared earlier, I really can't see all these replacement roads, foot bridges and increased height motor access bridges to allow clearance for overhead DART wires to all be approved, tendered and built in 4 years. All it takes is for one residents association to object to one element of the project for vested interests and the whole thing is delayed indefinitely. Is the timeline based on the caveat that there will be no objections?


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    #37
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Rather different planning process for something of this scale than for a conventional planning application

    You would need supremely deep pockets to appeal a grant of a Railway Order. Some of the objections to the various Luas lines were severe and from people who were rather wealthy (remember where the Green Line runs through!) and got nowhere.

    Initial planning process is slower as a result.


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    #38
    Dr_Colossus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    Orobhsa wrote: »
    Proposal is to close Clonsilla LC to vehicles and install pedestrian bridge.


    Clonsilla Level Crossing
    The Emerging Preferred Option provides a new pedestrian and cycle bridge over the railway to the west of the existing level crossing. Given the low traffic flows utilising the level crossing, combined with the proposed new road bridge at Barberstown to the west and the Diswellstown Link Road to the east of the crossing, the optimal solution has been determined as providing a pedestrian and cyclist bridge

    https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/c45be4c4-de84-48e2-8437-f90ad7097383/Emerging-Preferred-Option-Clonsilla-Level-Crossing-Replacement-jpg.jpg
    rockatansky wrote: »
    That is an absolute monstrosity.
    Former Former wrote: »
    Yep, absolutely enormous. I ain't no engineer but surely there's a more elegant solution.

    +1, truely hideous. As someone who cycles through the Clonsilla level crossing twice daily I'd prefer no access at all and do nothing and be forced to use the disaster that is the Dr. Troy bridge. In addition to the additional gridlock, roundabouts and traffic lights there's a so called cycle lane on it but the surface is shockingly poor.

    Option 2 and variants of it look good and would link in with a roundabout at the new Lidl site and on towards the Ongar distributor road but can't see it happening given the amount of CPOs and size of the development.

    Option 4 looks more feasible but would imagine it would require quite a steep gradient from the new bridge to connect back with the Clonsila Road which runs quite close to the canal. That said I guess no steeper than the current level crossing so hopefully Option 4 gets the go ahead.


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    #39
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    As a cyclist, my only issue with Dr Troy bridge is the the usual issue is the transitions, between road and cycle path and also the junctions, theres no flow. But thats typical for these to be bad, whomever designed them doesn't seem to be cyclist. Theres also a nasty lip between tarmac and concrete which has the potential to catch you out. Whats bad about the surface?


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    #40
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It would have been logical to preserve space for a major road crossing of the railways and canal through Hansfield towards the South and just dead-end the Clonsilla crossing, but again there was no joined up thinking going on and the site is being intensively developed.

    They can't even spell Ongar.


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    #41
    ciaran76
    Registered Users Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭ciaran76


    Seeing plenty no to the bridge Facebook Campaign from Riverwood and St. Moctas residents groups.

    https://www.riverwoodres.com/2020/08/dart-and-riverwood-court-bridge/

    I can understand if I lived there.


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    #42
    Brock Turnpike
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Brock Turnpike


    Anyone attend, or hear, what went on at, the Emer Currie meeting about this?


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    #43
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Brock Turnpike wrote: »
    Anyone attend, or hear, what went on at, the Emer Currie meeting about this?

    No missed it. BB went down just before it. I expect it would be the party line though.


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    #44
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ciaran76 wrote: »
    Seeing plenty no to the bridge Facebook Campaign from Riverwood and St. Moctas residents groups.

    https://www.riverwoodres.com/2020/08/dart-and-riverwood-court-bridge/

    I can understand if I lived there.

    I was on the fence on it. But its turning into a bit of shambles.

    They want to not only close coolmine but also close clonsilla, and route all the traffic into riverwood. So instead of one grid locked enormous bridge into a tiny estate they will have two. So rather than dispersing this traffic in a wider area they want to concentrate it all basically in the one spot, two bridges basically beside each other. At peak times you already have Blanch shopping Center traffic backing up into these areas, and they are the main routes out of the area. So they are creating yet more density of traffic all in the same spot.

    There were a bunch of other options, but it seems clear they are only really focused on one. If anyone listened to the IR webinar, it seemed they hadn't really any answers prepared for the residents. Granted it was just a initial meeting. To top it all they didn't bcc all the attendee's so that caused a GDPR issue. Which is a minor in the grand scheme of things, but wasn't a great first impression.

    Most people want the improvements to the line, and understand its difficult planning issue. But considering there green field locations not far aware, why build it in the middle of a congested area. The planning for Kellystown is now up again another massive development right on the doorstep of this bridge. So all that will come into this also. (why not build it into Kellystown?)

    All of the arguments for the bridge were said before they built Dr Troy bridge. It would ease congestion. Instead its like a traffic magnet, and has almost immediately filled to capacity and caused more congestion.

    If its going to be gridlock regardless. I think there's a feeling, that just close coolmine, but don't build a new bridge. Let the congestion on Dr Troy bridge force traffic to go some other route, or force people out of their cars in the first place.

    Generally though they'll keep at this till they get it.


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    #45
    Brock Turnpike
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Brock Turnpike


    beauf wrote: »
    I was on the fence on it. But its turning into a bit of shambles.

    They want to not only close coolmine but also close clonsilla, and route all the traffic into riverwood. So instead of one grid locked enormous bridge into a tiny estate they will have two. So rather than dispersing this traffic in a wider area they want to concentrate it all basically in the one spot, two bridges basically beside each other. At peak times you already have Blanch shopping Center traffic backing up into these areas, and they are the main routes out of the area. So they are creating yet more density of traffic all in the same spot.

    There were a bunch of other options, but it seems clear they are only really focused on one. If anyone listened to the IR webinar, it seemed they hadn't really any answers prepared for the residents. Granted it was just a initial meeting. To top it all they didn't bcc all the attendee's so that caused a GDPR issue. Which is a minor in the grand scheme of things, but wasn't a great first impression.

    Most people want the improvements to the line, and understand its difficult planning issue. But considering there green field locations not far aware, why build it in the middle of a congested area. The planning for Kellystown is now up again another massive development right on the doorstep of this bridge. So all that will come into this also. (why not build it into Kellystown?)

    All of the arguments for the bridge were said before they built Dr Troy bridge. It would ease congestion. Instead its like a traffic magnet, and has almost immediately filled to capacity and caused more congestion.

    If its going to be gridlock regardless. I think there's a feeling, that just close coolmine, but don't build a new bridge. Let the congestion on Dr Troy bridge force traffic to go some other route, or force people out of their cars in the first place.

    Generally though they'll keep at this till they get it.

    All salient points. Ultimately it comes down to the fact their isn't sufficient infrastructure to support the volume of housing that has been built in the area over the past number of years


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    #46
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ..and are continuing to build, and are planning to build more.

    Why not build new bridges and massive park and rides into those new developments. Change the paradigm.

    The vast majority of this traffic seems not to be local. I wonder how far out the traffic is coming from. Could you scan number plates in multiple locations and see what correlations you chould find.


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    #47
    TheChrisD
    Registered Users Posts: 4,498 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    beauf wrote: »
    They want to not only close coolmine but also close clonsilla, and route all the traffic into riverwood. So instead of one grid locked enormous bridge into a tiny estate they will have two.

    They don't want to push Clonsilla traffic through Riverwood - Clonsilla traffic will ideally be pushed to the R149 which should eventually connect to the future Barnhill distributor road.
    image.png




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    #48
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Ideally? No idea what that means here. Why would traffic heading to city center go in the opposite direction and head to the 149?

    I don't think all this traffic is coming from Clonsilla. There's too much of it. It has to pulling in traffic from a much larger area.


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    #49
    Brock Turnpike
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Brock Turnpike


    beauf wrote: »
    Ideally? No idea what that means here. Why would traffic heading to city center go in the opposite direction and head to the 149?

    I don't think all this traffic is coming from Clonsilla. There's too much of it. It has to pulling in traffic from a much larger area.

    I would imagine there could be a lot of NB M50 traffic exiting at Lucan and cutting across to D15 in order to avoid Tolls.


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    #50
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Brock Turnpike wrote: »
    I would imagine there could be a lot of NB M50 traffic exiting at Lucan and cutting across to D15 in order to avoid Tolls.

    I don't see why such traffic to go anywhere near coolmine, or clonsilla crossing.


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    #51
    Brock Turnpike
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Brock Turnpike


    Well I live next to Clonsilla crossing, and judging by tailbacks that are coming from Luttrellstown/Lucan direction in the morning, there must be a huge amount of traffic coming from somewhere over there.


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    #52
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Well IR want to close it because the traffic volumes are not significant.

    So will this traffic double back on itself to R149 or will it continue down to the Dr Troy Bridge.


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    #53
    Brock Turnpike
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Brock Turnpike


    beauf wrote: »
    Well IR want to close it because the traffic volumes are not significant.

    So will this traffic double back on itself to R149 or will it continue down to the Dr Troy Bridge.

    If that's IR reason for closing it, then they haven't researched it very well. I actually would be happy for it to be closed if they can find a workable solution, but that's going to be very difficult.


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    #54
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    beauf wrote: »
    I don't see why such traffic to go anywhere near coolmine, or clonsilla crossing.

    It's the most direct route back to the Northside M50 from the Laraghcon side of Lucan, the N3 tailbacks to Clonee anyway, so you may as well go a more direct route. There's probably a similar amount of traffic doing the reverse to head out to the R136 or Leixlip. The M50 toll is counter productive/


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    #55
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You'd think the R149 would be more direct. But what you're saying suggests the new bridge will indeed be a traffic magnet. Though I would have thought that going via coolmine and out to the M50 is bringing you through even worse traffic around the Blanch SC. I go northbound on the M50 myself, but only occasionally.

    But I think this is the minor part of it. The vast majority of traffic is heading towards town via Castleknock village or College. All the locals see is gridlock, and this will add to it. I think it's hard to argue otherwise. Can't imagine the effect for those right beside this bridge.


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    #56
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Coming off the R149 towards Littlepace, the route is pretty bad, far too much local traffic having to share roads thanks for the layout of the area. It would be difficult to absorb any traffic from a Clonsilla crossing closure. The new Hansfield bridge would basically dump traffic onto the Ongar distributor and probably split 50/50 both ways being a bad option.
    I can't see a Coolmine bridge drawing much cross river traffic, it's just a bit too awkward to get to.


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    #57
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Already does.


    Since they opened up Dr Troy to Porterstown road, the traffic has increased exponentially.
    Most obviously in the evenings with a traffic going over Dr Troy bridge to porterstown road all waiting to turn right towards Luttrelstown Castle.
    I assume most of this is heading Lucan/Leixlip direction.


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    #58
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    So closing Clonsilla would probably just split trafffic between a new Hansfield bridge and Dr Troy. I wonder what the numbers going over the Clonsilla level crossing actually are, it's a road we always avoided during rush hour, as you were so likely to get stuck waiting on trains.
    It could be a case of there's lot's of traffic, but not many actual crossings.


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    #59
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Could be. Thats IR take on it anyway.

    Maybe there's not so many using it because it often closed.


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    #60
    kdevitt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭kdevitt


    The designs being suggested for the road bridge at Coolmine are essentially a decade old - its come up as a question for election candidates several times, and in general they all committed to fighting any such proposal. Just sounds like IR have their mind made up on this approach and that's it. From being on the call with Irish Rail last week or the week before, it was immediately obvious that they literally don't have a clue about the area. They could provide peak time closures for the level crossing, but no data on off peak times. They thought one entrance to Riverwood didn't even exist, and really struggled with providing any detail.

    The route for the bridge at Coolmine turns two very quiet residential cul de sacs into a main road - wiping out some nice lovely green space and mature trees in the process, and sticking a 9 meter high bridge right in front of peoples houses. The exit point at Coolmine Cross allows 4 cars to exit currently on green - and the traffic still backs up to Roselawn every evening. Any extension to that traffic light sequence will see people like me not actually being able to get into our housing estates. It also has the effect of forcing any traffic for Carpenterstown from turning left at the top of Delwood, in turn driving it all up the Coolmine Road back up toward Coolmine Cross. As it stands, that road backs up every day - and thats with the level crossing still open. I've been getting the train from Coolmine for the guts of 30 years now - so appreciate the need for upgrades, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of those who live nearby.


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    #61
    Brock Turnpike
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Brock Turnpike


    kdevitt wrote: »
    The designs being suggested for the road bridge at Coolmine are essentially a decade old - its come up as a question for election candidates several times, and in general they all committed to fighting any such proposal. Just sounds like IR have their mind made up on this approach and that's it. From being on the call with Irish Rail last week or the week before, it was immediately obvious that they literally don't have a clue about the area. They could provide peak time closures for the level crossing, but no data on off peak times. They thought one entrance to Riverwood didn't even exist, and really struggled with providing any detail.

    The route for the bridge at Coolmine turns two very quiet residential cul de sacs into a main road - wiping out some nice lovely green space and mature trees in the process, and sticking a 9 meter high bridge right in front of peoples houses. The exit point at Coolmine Cross allows 4 cars to exit currently on green - and the traffic still backs up to Roselawn every evening. Any extension to that traffic light sequence will see people like me not actually being able to get into our housing estates. It also has the effect of forcing any traffic for Carpenterstown from turning left at the top of Delwood, in turn driving it all up the Coolmine Road back up toward Coolmine Cross. As it stands, that road backs up every day - and thats with the level crossing still open. I've been getting the train from Coolmine for the guts of 30 years now - so appreciate the need for upgrades, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of those who live nearby.

    This post is a perfect example of the lack of planning that has (and continues to) gone into D15 in general. Planning permission continually being granted for developments with no future planning or sufficient infrastructure available to support the developments.

    You're now left with the scenario you described above whereby the logical locations for a bridge to replace a level crossing has already been developed as housing estates.


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