The Frankel Foals Watch Thread!

Lt Dan · 23-09-2016 3:16pm

Mgoraf wrote: »

Fair Eva beaten at odds on again. Very disappointing last two runs from her

Almost every time that the Racing Post puts a horse on its front page as the expected winner, it looses

tryfix · 09-10-2016 10:21pm

It's been a few informative weeks since anything's been posted in this thread. Following the flop of Queen Kindly in the Gp 1 Cheveley Park Stakes, the Frankel's flopped in another pair of Gp1s with favourite Toulifaut flopping after meeting trouble in running in the Prix Marcel Boussac and the well fancied Seven Heavens pulling like a headcase before flopping in the Dewhurst.

Notions about the Frankel's speediness need to be revised as his sons have been running with credit in races over a mile with Frankuus taking the Gp3 Prix De Conde over 1m 1f yesterday and Cunco running with great credit in 2nd in the Listed 1m 2f Zetland Stakes on the same day. Today Monarchs Glen took a 1m 1f maiden in the style of a potential Derby/Leger horse.

The Frankel's generally have a Dosage score of middle distance horses with Frankuus having a DI of 1.00 which is a Derby pedigree for a Galileo line horse. Cunco similarly has a DI of 1.00 despite being out of the speedy Danehill Dancer mare Chrysanthemum, Monarch's Glen DI 0.90 and the very promising Eminent DI of 0.88 have St Leger written all over them.

Frankel will be a stamina influence and he's far more likely to produce a Derby winner than a 2,000 Guineas winner.

tryfix · 11-10-2016 9:18pm

Just to flesh out why Frankel should be a reasonable influence for stamina probably similar to Galileo. At first I thought the Frankel's Dosage Indexes were miles out because of his own speed despite his 12f pedigree. The stamina he may be imparting could explain why the likes of Fair Eva DI 0.80 struggled for finishing speed in her last few races which were most likely over trips too short for her. If the Frankel's Dosage Indexes are correct then the Frankels could really take off as 3yos in the classic trials.

On a mating with Rosie's Posy the dam of San Remo, Make Believe and Dubawi Heights. The Frankel Colt has a DI of 1.00, the Dubawi colt has a DI of 1.22 and the Makfi colt has a DI of 1.67.

The dam of Frankuus also had 3 matings with Lawman giving a DI 1.67, a mating to the stamina influence Duke Of Marmalade giving a DI 1.40 and the Frankel colt with a DI of 1.00.

The super classy Da Re Mi produced So Mi Dar DI 0.75 by Dubawi, Erdogan by Frankel with a DI 0.74 and one by Oasis Dream with a DI of 1.10.

Honorine produced Count Octave DI 0.87 by Frankel, Treasure Beach DI 0.89 by Galileo , Elidor DI 1.33 by Cape Cross and Honorina DI 1.29 by Sea the Stars.

Pearling produced Ambrosia DI 1.25 by Frankel, Azizaan DI 1.67 by Dubawi and Decorated Knight DI 1.20 by Galileo.

Clepsydra produced Amser DI 0.93 by Frankel, Passage Of Time DI 1.29 by Dansili, Timetable by Observatory DI 1.40 and Sandglass DI 1.83 by Zafonic.

Johner · 21-10-2016 12:05pm

He had another winner at Newmarket the other day.

Cracksman trained by John Gosden won over a mile, looked to have hit the line very strong in the end and should relish a step up in trip.

Three more making their debuts today at Newbury and Doncaster.

Uae King – 1.20pm Newbury – Friday 21st October

On paper, this could be one of the most exciting Frankel runners to date. Uae King is a Roger Varian trained colt out of the Italian Oaks winning dam Zomaradah. He is a half-brother to none other than champion Classic winner Dubawi, so unsurprisingly big things will be expected from him. Other notable half-siblings include the Group 2 winner Emirates Queen and Princess Nada. His pedigree suggests he will be at his best at trips at 1m+.

Commander – 2.25pm Newbury – Friday 21st October

Costing no less than 670,000gns, this Derby entrant is the first Frankel Foal for the ownership of the China Horse Club. Like Uae King, the colt is trained by Roger Varian. He is a half-brother to seven winners that won at distances ranging from 6f-1m4f, suggesting that he will have a good mix of speed and stamina, therefore starting him out at a mile makes perfect sense. James Doyle takes the ride in what looks like a good Newbury maiden.

Mirage Dancer – 3.10pm Doncaster – Friday 21st October

Another Frankel Foal that will bear the colours of Khalid Bin Abdullah. This one will be the mount of Ryan Moore for trainer Sir Michael Stoute. He is a half-brother to useful winners such as Forge and Radiator but it is when you delve deeper into his pedigree that it becomes more impressive. The colt boasts a grandam of the exceptional Hasili – also dam of Champs Eysees, Banks Hill, Intercontinental, Cacique and Dansili and has a Derby entry to his name.

Johner · 21-10-2016 3:13pm

The first two were disappointing but Mirage Dancer really hit the line strong over 7f, took him a while for the penny to drop.

tryfix · 01-11-2016 12:22pm

After all the hype in the UK the real record of Frankel's first crop is not that of a future champion sire. Out of 5 individual 2yo GP1 runners the nearest any of them came to winning a GP1 was 5 1/4l behind the winner. In Europe as a whole Frankel has has 35 runners and 16 winners ( 45%) a long way from the 100% type strike rate that has been on UK lips. He has sired three pattern race winners A Gp2 winner, 3 Gp3 winners and a listed race win, none of which were capable of making it in Gp1 company.

Thought his 2 in the 10f GP1 Grand Criterium on Sunday might have shown that a step up in trip would bring out huge improvement in the Frankel's, it didn't Cunco and Frankuus both finished one paced 5 1/4l and 6 3/4l behind Waldgeist on Sunday with donkeys like Taj Mahal ahead of them. With the winner Waldgeist massively turning around his previous defeat by Frankuus and also Prinz Hlodowig the 2nd in that race finished ahead of Frankuus this time. A case again of the Frankel's not progressing at the same rate as their peers. Maybe next year something will click in them or maybe the soft ground might have been against them in France but the odds are increasingly against the Frankel's living up to the hype.

kfallon · 01-11-2016 12:32pm

Flat track bullies imo!

Tho, tbf, I don't think Galileo was quick out of the blocks as a stallion either (open to correction on that)

Peintre Celebre · 01-11-2016 2:10pm

kfallon wrote: »

Flat track bullies imo!

Tho, tbf, I don't think Galileo was quick out of the blocks as a stallion either (open to correction on that)

Galileo did get an Irish Guineas winner but started slowly. But hardly comparable given the book that Frankel got in his first season. He must be the most over hyped stallion ever, RP ran a piece during the week on his 'outstanding' start to stud. I'm sure the ones who paid 115k and kept to race aren't exactly thinking the same

tryfix · 01-11-2016 2:26pm

kfallon wrote: »

Flat track bullies imo!

Tho, tbf, I don't think Galileo was quick out of the blocks as a stallion either (open to correction on that)

The thing about Galileo was that he was the opposite of Frankel in many ways as a young stallion. He wasn't hyped as a stallion prospect and started at IR £50,000 vs £125,000 for Frankel, so his initial crops weren't block filled with the cream of broodmares like Frankel's has been. Galileo is a good comparison point in ways because of the similarity in staying power they seem to impart to their stock. It wasn't until Galileo's fifth crop that he hit near Frankel's fee and by that stage he'd already been producing a conveyor belt of champion 2yo Gp1 winners.

The hype with Frankel has been about how quick he has been out of the blocks in England ( 15 winners from 28 ( 54%) ( 10 for 10 or so at one stage ) and in the very promising style his runners have won their maidens.

It's hard to avoid the flat track bully possibility at this stage but it is early in his career so things could change quickly when his runners hit 3.

There's a bit of a feeling that a lot of his horses don't have a particular trip, they seem to just keep going whatever the trip, a bit like himself without the turbo power.

kfallon · 01-11-2016 2:50pm

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Galileo did get an Irish Guineas winner but started slowly. But hardly comparable given the book that Frankel got in his first season. He must be the most over hyped stallion ever, RP ran a piece during the week on his 'outstanding' start to stud. I'm sure the ones who paid 115k and kept to race aren't exactly thinking the same

Oh I totally agree, all I'm saying is that there is still time for him to turn it around and become a superb stallion!

I couldn't give a shít tho, to be perfectly honest, sick of the hype! Poor man's Sea The Stars!

Lt Dan · 01-11-2016 3:08pm

kfallon wrote: »

Flat track bullies imo!

Tho, tbf, I don't think Galileo was quick out of the blocks as a stallion either (open to correction on that)

Did Galileo get the type of Fillies that Frankel has got?

I see one horse from the Sales in Newmarket, that Frankel mated with Mark Johnson 's Double 1000 Guineas winner (Attraction) of 2004. Sold recently for almost 2 million

Lt Dan · 01-11-2016 3:16pm

kfallon wrote: »

Oh I totally agree, all I'm saying is that there is still time for him to turn it around and become a superb stallion!

I couldn't give a shít tho, to be perfectly honest, sick of the hype! Poor man's Sea The Stars!

Well, I doubt he has many Classic contenders at least for the Guineas, so, we won't have to read or hear about him. Judging by Roger Charlton's pageant for dodging races , Fair Eva won't be "ready" -no guarantee that she would get the trip anyway with her mother being a sprinter. Seven Heavens may not be seen again in a decent race after that behaviour. Queen Kindly may come on but not in classics.

As for Sea The Stars, well, he seems to have got 1 or 2 (max) Group 1 winners a year since since children started racing around 2012. Not bad. Already a Epsom Derby-Oaks, Irish Derby , King George German Derby winning sire. Other other horses some some decent Group 2-3 races this year. I wonder what is in store for him. Anyone feel that his stud fee is a slight bit too big?

tryfix · 01-11-2016 4:52pm

Lt Dan wrote: »

Well, I doubt he has many Classic contenders at least for the Guineas, so, we won't have to read or hear about him. Judging by Roger Charlton's pageant for dodging races , Fair Eva won't be "ready" -no guarantee that she would get the trip anyway with her mother being a sprinter. Seven Heavens may not be seen again in a decent race after that behaviour. Queen Kindly may come on but not in classics.

As for Sea The Stars, well, he seems to have got 1 or 2 (max) Group 1 winners a year since since children started racing around 2012. Not bad. Already a Epsom Derby-Oaks, Irish Derby , King George German Derby winning sire. Other other horses some some decent Group 2-3 races this year. I wonder what is in store for him. Anyone feel that his stud fee is a slight bit too big?

The 2 fillies deserve the height of respect. Unlike the colts who folded easily and who show suspect temperaments, the 2 fillies ran against top class competion and failed for plausible reasons.

Fair Eva lacked pace, she's actually bred to be a 3yo middle distance performer but was so forward as a 2yo that they thought she was a speedy type. She wasn't disgraced against the GP1 class speedy fillies in the Lowther and still has considerable potential at a mile+.

As for Queen Kindly, at first glance she was born to win the Lowther and not to train on as a 3yo but she's with Fahey who didn't race her in a fashion to burn her out and IIRC he was intent on training her in a way that meant she would train on. He's quite the trainer and I'd have plenty of faith in his ability to get something out of her 3yo career.

Sea The Stars is getting better as he goes on, his only flaw and it's a giant one is his inability to produce GP1 juveniles. He's already had 5 proper GP1 winners, all 3yos and one of them at a mile. Even though he's failing at Juvenile level he's still producing considerably more precocious stock than Dubawi whose GP1 winning juvenile this year is the exception to the rule, indeed Dubawi for a £250,000 stallion has been fierce poor at getting 3yo runners to Epsom in June.

tryfix · 11-12-2016 11:33am

Soul Stirring became the first progeny of Frankel to strike at the highest level when she won the Hanshin Juvenile Fillies at Hanshin racecourse in Japan on Sunday.

The filly, who is out of French Oaks winner Stacelita, is trained by Kazuo Fujisawa for the Shadai Race Horse Co Ltd and she cruised to the front a furlong out in the mile event.

http://www1.attheraces.com/news/latest-news/soul-stirring-gives-sire-frankel-a-first-group-one-verdict

Frankel the stallion bags his first Gp1 in Japan. He really does get the choicest of mares sent his way. His fillies seem to be better than his colts so far.

Lt Dan · 11-12-2016 2:13pm

tryfix wrote: »

http://www1.attheraces.com/news/latest-news/soul-stirring-gives-sire-frankel-a-first-group-one-verdict

Frankel the stallion bags his first Gp1 in Japan. He really does get the choicest of mares sent his way. His fillies seem to be better than his colts so far.

Ah,those muppets in the UK press shall be creaming themselves

diomed · 11-12-2016 6:22pm

Congratulations to Frankel. He will be delighted.
It counts as a 2yo Grade 1 winner, even thought she is just three weeks away for her 3rd birthday.

tryfix · 12-12-2016 6:50pm

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel's first Irish runner goes in the first at the Curragh tomorrow and he's a biggie. He's the Ger Lyons trained Lightening Fast, his dam is the 6f Gp 1 2yo winner Lightening Pearl.

.

That's one hell of an interesting pedigree that Lightening Fast has.

By Frankel whose speediness was at odds with his own pedigree and out of a mare Lightening Pearl ( who has a 12f+ Dosage Index of 0.78 ) who was a Gp1 6f winner by Marju and is a full sister to Sunday's 12f Gp1 Hong Kong Vase winner Satono Crown who needed all of 12f to overhaul Highland Reel.

Lightening Fast's form isn't all that bad either, hopefully he can reach listed or Gp3 class before he gets gelded for not making the grade.

tryfix · 19-12-2016 2:52pm

Frankel out of luck on Sunday as favourite Mi Suerte finishes 4th in the Gr1 Futurity Stakes in Japan.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/result_home.sd?race_id=665962&r_date=2016-12-18&popup=yes#results_top_tabs=re_&results_bottom_tabs=ANALYSIS

tryfix · 30-03-2017 1:27pm

Things are beginning to look very promising for the Frankel 3yos, they stay and seem to be training on.

Count Octave a Frankel 3/4 brother to Treasure Beach won a 12f maiden a few days ago, indeed I reckon with his pedigree he's a likely Leger contender.

David Elsworth is claiming to be excited about Swiss Storm's chance in the 2,000 Guineas and his Japanese GP1 winning 2yo made a successful 3yo comeback.

It's looking to my eyes as I'd Frankel is going to supplying plenty of middle distance horses and it may pay to get on any Derby Trial winner he may have

tryfix · 12-04-2017 5:21pm

Martyn Meade is already on the pace in the fashion stakes by having a winning son of Frankel in his Newmarket stable for 2017 and is hopeful colt Eminent can prove a genuine 2,000 Guineas contender at the Craven meeting next week.

A 40-1 chance with bet365 for the Qipco 2,000 Guineas on May 6, Eminent made a perfect start when winning a maiden on his debut on the Rowley Mile in September and could be one of many Frankel offspring that do battle in the race their sire won so memorably in 2011.

Meade said: "You've got to have a Frankel in your yard in this day and age haven't you and hopefully we've found a good one.

"There could be three or four Frankels lining up in the 2,000 Guineas which is exciting and the plan is to run Eminent in either the Craven Stakes or the Feilden Stakes next week to see where we are before we make a decision about the 2,000 Guineas."

In contrast to most of the Frankels that have been on the market, Eminent was in the bargain basement category when agent Dermot Farrington picked him up privately for 150,000 gns after he failed to make his reserve at Tattersalls in October 2015.

Meade added: "He was very backward and gangly as a two-year-old and we didn't think we would get a run into him at one stage.

"You could see why many people were put off at the sales as he looked as if he would take an awfully long time to make it onto the track but we took a punt and he just progressed and progressed."

Prior to his win, Eminent was giving out the right signals at home to prompt a significant change of colours before he had even run.

Meade said: "New Zealander Sir Peter Vela, who has owned a Melbourne Cup winner, bought him before the race and came over to see him run.

"I was very worried that if he had run badly it could have been a disaster with our new owner but it turned into a fairytale really and hopefully Sir Peter will be back on Guineas weekend."

Meade, who recently bought the nearby Snailwell Stud to complement his 50-box set up at Sefton Lodge on Newmarket's Bury Road, added: "We've always thought Eminent will stay further than a mile and that's why he's in the Dante Stakes and the Investec Derby. His dam was placed over a mile and a half so he could be in that sort of territory in time."

A tasty priced classic contender and being from a small yard you're more likely to get a run out of it in the Classics than you are out of one of the legions of promising sorts in the big yards.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/eminent-to-test-classic-credentials-at-craven-meeting/281743

I'd be very surprised if he was sharp enough to win a Guineas but the Derby could be right up his street. He has a Di of 0.88 out of a mare who placed in the Coronation Stakes and who is a daughter of the Gp1 Sadlers Wells filly Quarter Moon. It's a very nice pedigree.

Johner · 13-04-2017 12:17am

Monarchs Glen quickened like a smart horse today at Kempton. A few other winners for Frankel today in handicaps.

Gavin "shels" · 13-04-2017 12:56am

Big prices too, two of them 4/1!

tryfix · 13-04-2017 3:15am

diomed wrote: »

Congratulations to Frankel. He will be delighted.
It counts as a 2yo Grade 1 winner, even thought she is just three weeks away for her 3rd birthday.

That Soul Stirring couldn't do the business in the Japanese 1,000 Guineas, she was within half a length but you'd be kinda expecting a win from a star from a first crop sire who'd already beaten the winner in their trial race.

It's probable that she now needs a trip as her dam Stacelita was a multiple 10f GP 1 winner. Soul Stirring's DI of 0.52 is apparently that of a Cup horse but the exact same as her mother's so 10f should be okay for her.

Gavin "shels" · 21-04-2017 12:18am

Eminent impressive today

Ben Gadot · 28-04-2017 3:13pm

Interesting race there at Sandown. Frankuus hasn't lost any of his toughness and should come on after that. Cunco showed early season fitness once again.

Monarchs Glen disappointing of course but still wouldn't rule out anything there.

byronbay2 · 28-04-2017 4:19pm

Ben Gadot wrote: »

Interesting race there at Sandown. Frankuus hasn't lost any of his toughness and should come on after that. Cunco showed early season fitness once again.

Monarchs Glen disappointing of course but still wouldn't rule out anything there.

Monarch's Glen blew his chance by pulling too hard - Frankie could hardly restrain him for the first 6f. You can put a line through that run but, obviously, the horse needs to learn to settle to have any chance of winning over 10-12f.

tryfix · 28-04-2017 8:10pm

Ben Gadot wrote: »

Interesting race there at Sandown. Frankuus hasn't lost any of his toughness and should come on after that. Cunco showed early season fitness once again.

Monarchs Glen disappointing of course but still wouldn't rule out anything there.

A poor Derby Trial, I was hoping that Monarch's Glen would thrash these and burst onto the Derby scene. They all finished in a heap, 5 that close together and a Rip Van Winkle nearly winning it. The winner is likeable but the form is well below what you'd like to see.

All in all bar Eminent, even though the Frankels have been winning they've not shown any great turn of foot and that's a big hindrance when they step up in grade.

Can't believe how the Cracksman bubble hasn't burst after this week.

tryfix · 29-04-2017 1:41pm

D Weld has a Frankel newcomer making her debut in the opening 3yo maiden tomorrow at Gowran Park . FRIMA owned by Juddmonte out of a Kahyasi mare.

Seems to be the type of well bred Juddmonte horse that Weld does so well with.

sting60 · 30-04-2017 7:11pm

The most overrated sire considering the top ,top mares he has got.I wouldn't consider any (ANY) of his progeny anywhere good enough to place in a classic.Galileo is in a different planet and he(FRANKEL) is 25th on money earned in UK as 2yr olds considered.HYPE,HYPE,HYPE.in a serious way imo.I would not ask my mother in law to buy a Frankel that is my option and I stand by that big time."Its better to stand alone than stand in a crowd".
O

Auroras_encore · 30-04-2017 7:30pm

sting60 wrote: »

The most overrated sire considering the top ,top mares he has got.I wouldn't consider any (ANY) of his progeny anywhere good enough to place in a classic.Galileo is in a different planet and he(FRANKEL) is 25th on money earned in UK as 2yr olds considered.HYPE,HYPE,HYPE.in a serious way imo.I would not ask my mother in law to buy a Frankel that is my option and I stand by that big time."Its better to stand alone than stand in a crowd".
O

the first time I have agreed with you

The Frankel Foals Watch Thread!

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