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Teacher ''shortage''

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  • 11-10-2019 6:01pm
    #1
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    Can someone clarify if there is in fact a teacher shortage or is there a teacher shortage for some subjects only ?

    I am hearing that schools are crying out for teachers however I also hear that many people at post primary level are emigrating or getting low hours each week.

    Can someone please clarify if there is a teacher shortage or not? Any post primary school teachers I have spoken to said there is no jobs out there.

    Do they mean no permanent jobs or stability ?

    Please advise :)


«1

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    #2
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    I'm barely out of college but I'd imagine it is in some subjects only, like physics. Practically half the people I'd meet in college would be doing teaching/arts degrees and the PME, including many friends. A major barrier for all though is the cost of the PME. It's two years and I think about 12,000 euros.


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    #3
    BDI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭BDI


    There is always a teacher shortage, it helps the payrise each year, nurses always most likely to be assaulted, bus drivers most likely to work terrible hours, once you are in you win.

    Also complain if they change anything curriculumwise.


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    #4
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,107 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Shortage of teachers willing to take small hours contracts.

    People retire and their job is split in three, surprisingly people like to have a job that allows them to eat and pay for somewhere to live, so don't apply.

    Look on educationposts and see what is available.

    Let's ignore the troll...annual pay rise indeed.


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    #5
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    There is a shortage of teachers in some subjects and in some parts of the country. The union propaganda machine hooks on to this fact in the push for more increases for all new teachers.


    They don't mention the cases where there is an oversupply of teachers though, despite the salaries being the same. In fact, I think it was in Business they had to put in a limit due to the graduates coming out.


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    #6
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,392 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Some days you can't get enough subs, some days you don't need any. There is definitely a lot less subs available than previous years and less people applying for contracts.


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    #7
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    spurious wrote: »
    Shortage of teachers willing to take small hours contracts.

    People retire and their job is split in three, surprisingly people like to have a job that allows them to eat and pay for somewhere to live, so don't apply.

    Look on educationposts and see what is available.

    Let's ignore the troll...annual pay rise indeed.

    What do you mean when you say job is split in three?


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    #8
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    salonfire wrote: »
    There is a shortage of teachers in some subjects and in some parts of the country. The union propaganda machine hooks on to this fact in the push for more increases for all new teachers.


    They don't mention the cases where there is an oversupply of teachers though, despite the salaries being the same. In fact, I think it was in Business they had to put in a limit due to the graduates coming out.

    Do you know what subjects there is a shortage in? Is there any chance art is one of them or is this unlikely to be a shortage?


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    #9
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,392 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Art wouldnt be in shortage per se but there's a lot less art teachers looking for subbing compared to previous years


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    #10
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    Do you know what subjects there is a shortage in? Is there any chance art is one of them or is this unlikely to be a shortage?

    I'm not in the profession, but from what I gather it is in areas like the sciences and Irish in the east of the country.


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    #11
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,107 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    frillyleaf wrote:
    What do you mean when you say job is split in three?

    What had been a full hours (proper) job when I was working in it, got split when I retired into three small hours jobs. Some might dress that up as three teachers working where one was before, but that practice is part of the problem. I don't blame anyone in a small hours position for looking elsewhere as much as they can.


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    #12
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    TheDriver wrote: »
    Art wouldnt be in shortage per se but there's a lot less art teachers looking for subbing compared to previous years

    Thanks Spurious. I wonder if this is because they are moving into different areas or if it because there are more students doing art as a subject. ]

    I've been keeping an eye on education posts and there seems to be very few art vacancies advertised compared to other subjects


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    #13
    frillyleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭frillyleaf


    spurious wrote: »
    What had been a full hours (proper) job when I was working in it, got split when I retired into three small hours jobs. Some might dress that up as three teachers working where one was before, but that practice is part of the problem. I don't blame anyone in a small hours position for looking elsewhere as much as they can.

    Why is it beneficial for schools to do this? Is it so the DES doesn't have to pay higher wages? I don' understand why they would do this


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    #14
    Random sample
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Random sample


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    spurious wrote: »
    What had been a full hours (proper) job when I was working in it, got split when I retired into three small hours jobs. Some might dress that up as three teachers working where one was before, but that practice is part of the problem. I don't blame anyone in a small hours position for looking elsewhere as much as they can.

    Why is it beneficial for schools to do this? Is it so the DES doesn't have to pay higher wages? I don' understand why they would do this

    Because they now have 3 teachers on site who are very willing to take on last minute substitution classes to make extra money, and have more free time to take on extra curricular. They are fighting for a job, so will work harder, and are only costing 1/3 of a teacher. There are a lot of pluses for the school.


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    #15
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    I heard of a school near me who have just employed a French teacher that they had to source from France...couldn’t get one in Ireland !! So it’s possibly still an issue in certain subjects or certain areas !!


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    #16
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,361 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    The area of the county the person is looking is a big factor as well no even seem to mention that.


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    #17
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    frillyleaf wrote: »
    Why is it beneficial for schools to do this? Is it so the DES doesn't have to pay higher wages? I don' understand why they would do this

    As has been said it's mostly about extracurricular, people fighting for jobs etc. In my school we've a school tour every year. 8/9 teachers gone for the week. Those part time teachers fill the gaps. Our new principal got rid of the part time issue, but suddenly created a new issue when there was no one to sub for the tour.

    Schools love sending part timers away to a hurling match, less classes to get covered.


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    #18
    emilymemily
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭emilymemily


    Only in some subjects, particularly Irish, the cost of the PME plus the added expense of having to spend time in the gaeltacht is whats putting allot of people off.
    There are also shortages in maths and some science subjects.

    Ive also encountered schools who dont advertise for subbing positions but leave classes without an appropriate teacher, class is often just supervised by teachers not qualified in the subject. Often its the case when a teacher is out for a couple days or weeks, schools find it hard to get subs for these types of cover.


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    #19
    Snapgal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Snapgal


    emilymemily wrote: »
    Only in some subjects, particularly Irish, the cost of the PME plus the added expense of having to spend time in the gaeltacht is whats putting allot of people off.
    There are also shortages in maths and some science subjects.

    Ive also encountered schools who dont advertise for subbing positions but leave classes without an appropriate teacher, class is often just supervised by teachers not qualified in the subject. Often its the case when a teacher is out for a couple days or weeks, schools find it hard to get subs for these types of cover.

    No proper jobs in Irish. I have over 17 years experience in teaching Irish, corrected papers and acted as an examiner - I still was not good enough for one or two RPT low hour contracts I interviewed for.I’d advise anybody not to go into teaching unless you are well in with county GAA or have links with a school BOM.


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    #20
    PowerToWait
    Registered Users Posts: 1,773 ✭✭✭PowerToWait


    solerina wrote: »
    I heard of a school near me who have just employed a French teacher that they had to source from France...couldn’t get one in Ireland !! So it’s possibly still an issue in certain subjects or certain areas !!

    I believe this is now common practice. Employing native speakers with no recognised qualification and often no experience. But, shur they’re fluent.


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    #21
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Out and out lies from unions we hear in the press surely won't help attract potential teachers into the profession

    INTO General Sec on Pat Kenny yesterday bemoans his niece taking home €400 as a new teacher and living in Dublin.

    With the starting salary of €36950, the take home is closer to €550 per week.


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    #22
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    salonfire wrote: »
    Out and out lies from unions we hear in the press surely won't help attract potential teachers into the profession

    INTO General Sec on Pat Kenny yesterday bemoans his niece taking home €400 as a new teacher and living in Dublin.

    With the starting salary of €36950, the take home is closer to €550 per week.

    You're assuming she's teaching every day of the week.

    I've been certified sick all week, no subs to cover my classes. A week of learning lost.


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    #23
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Snapgal wrote: »
    No proper jobs in Irish. I have over 17 years experience in teaching Irish, corrected papers and acted as an examiner - I still was not good enough for one or two RPT low hour contracts I interviewed for.I’d advise anybody not to go into teaching unless you are well in with county GAA or have links with a school BOM.
    Don't take this the wrong way but "correcting papers" is "acting as an examiner", and I really don't mean this as an insult but rather, constructive criticism, but if you have that much experience and aren't being offered jobs, you're sending some wrong message. I don't know what that message might be, and it might not be your fault, but you need to look at your process (or get a friendly but critical outside party to look at it) and figure out what you're doing wrong.


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    #24
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    You're assuming she's teaching every day of the week.

    The conversation was in the context of a shortage of primary teachers, so if there is a shortage, it stands to reason she is full time.

    Letting on the take home pay is much less than it actually is taking us for fools and probably putting potential teachers and their parents off teaching as a career.


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    #25
    Random sample
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Random sample


    salonfire wrote: »
    Out and out lies from unions we hear in the press surely won't help attract potential teachers into the profession

    INTO General Sec on Pat Kenny yesterday bemoans his niece taking home €400 as a new teacher and living in Dublin.

    With the starting salary of €36950, the take home is closer to €550 per week.

    Are you taking pensions and pension levy into account there?


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    #26
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Random sample wrote: »
    Are you taking pensions and pension levy into account there?

    Yes.

    The pension levy threshold is actually quite high, close to €30000. Only after that amount is the levy percentage applied.


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    #27
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    Snapgal wrote: »
    No proper jobs in Irish. I have over 17 years experience in teaching Irish, corrected papers and acted as an examiner - I still was not good enough for one or two RPT low hour contracts I interviewed for.I’d advise anybody not to go into teaching unless you are well in with county GAA or have links with a school BOM.

    I know that Irish teachers can’t be got in Dublin/Wicklow - I’d imagine you could add other parts of the East in to that too.

    Not Mickey Mouse contracts they’re looking to fill either, proper 20+ hours a week jobs.


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    #28
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭amacca


    salonfire wrote: »
    The conversation was in the context of a shortage of primary teachers, so if there is a shortage, it stands to reason she is full time.

    Does it though?...does it really?.......would it be possible she doesn't have a full position

    I wonder if they are riding them around the mulberry bush at primary level the same way they are in post-primary

    perhaps he was telling the truth and theres something you are not aware of????


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    #29
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    amacca wrote: »
    Does it though?...does it really?.......would it be possible she doesn't have a full position

    I wonder if they are riding them around the mulberry bush at primary level the same way they are in post-primary

    perhaps he was telling the truth and theres something you are not aware of????

    More likely he was trotting out the union propaganda to soften up the public for the next strike.

    Whether or not his niece is full time, the fact is full time new primary teachers are on much more than €400 per week.


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    #30
    dazzeremo
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭dazzeremo


    surely one solution would be to enable existing teachers to add teacher specific qualifications ao that they can teach these in demand subjects. subsidis the cost of full degree or reduce the content to LC level. as long as the Teaching Council are around, there will be an issue.

    spending 9k on a degree so you might get a few hours in it is ridiculous.

    I know the vast majority of teachers on mickey mouse contracts (anything less than 22 hours per week) would gladly take up such an opportunity.

    we have enough teachers. let them teach.


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    #31
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭amacca


    salonfire wrote: »

    Whether or not his niece is full time, the fact is full time new primary teachers are on much more than €400 per week.

    I wonder how many of them there are................


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