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Being a "good person"

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,050 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The question about whether we can subjectively decide good from bad is probably off topic for this thread.

    Assuming the universality of the idea that murder is bad. Within societies (if not between them) that’s generally the case. Although of course some people (like slaves) have traditionally had no rights.

    In any case, for the purpose of this thought experiment, imagine a society where murder is considered bad.

    There are two people in this society of otherwise impeccable moral credentials (for this society).

    Person A: thinks murderous thoughts all the time. Never acts on the thoughts, nor does it affect anybody around him. Hes just as pleasant to the people he would prefer dead as to anybody.

    Person B: generally of pleasant mental thoughts but freaks out one day and kills a man who has been verbally bullying him. It’s a crime of anger or passion.

    Since we can’t tell the inner thoughts of A but we can tell the actions of B, this society would judge B to the more immoral of the two.
    Yes. But a more interesting question is, if we could know the inner thoughts of both A and B, would we still judge B to be the more immoral on the basis that he did, in fact, kill a man?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Franz Von Peppercorn: The question about whether we can subjectively decide good from bad is probably off topic for this thread.

    Not really. We can pursue both objective or subjective discussions regarding "Being a Good Person" as titled and introduced by the OP in this thread.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Even more basically, is there any objective sense in which a person may be called good?
    Objectively, how do we operationalize a "good" or "bad" person for research purposes, ensuring both reliability and validity?
    Or is "good" always a subjective and historically contingent concept?
    From a Derridean standpoint, is "good" vs. "bad" a dichotomy, suffering from a preferential hierarchy, which may also exclude other dimensions?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Fathom wrote: »
    Socrates was tried and executed for what he thought and said about those thoughts. If what you say does not matter, then try proclaiming you are an atheist in a predominantly religious country and see how "society at large" treats you, and if they label you as a "bad person."
    Epistemological question. Is thought an action? If so, can thought exhibit morality?

    You seem to have misread what I posted but as a devout and practicing Catholic I would proffer an alternative scenario to the above quote, i.e. that of a devout Catholic declaring their faith in a Stalinist-Communist country. Not sure about you but I would prefer the kind concern of good Christians for my immortal soul over a lengthy stint in a gulag.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Infernum


    For example, if a man is constantly thinking of murdering or stealing or saying hurtful things to people, or rape etc, yet never legally or morally outwardly sets a foot wrong, i.e., is polite, mannerly, helpful, diligent at job, responsible in the home etc, is that person a bad person masquerading as a good person, or is he a good person, or is he judged by his thoughts, is he a bad person.

    Actions speak louder about a person than what goes on inside their minds. We don't need to know their thought process to determine what kind of person they are, only their contributions towards society.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Is it not hubris of man to make such a statement “you are bad!”? Who has the moral , ethical or General authority to make such a bold appraisal? It’s one of many quirks I find of our species. I don’t think anybody truly has the authority say “you are good or bad” unless they have honestly reviewed their own behavior but even at that we aren’t very good at critically assessing ourselves. I feel if people learned to objectively regulate and review their own behavior they would be less quick at condemning others for their perceived “sins”. Alas, self regulation and personal responsibility are not very popular human traits, it’s self gratifying to point at somebody else’s flaws to prop ourselves up.

    We are monkeys , who wear clothes and think an awful lot about ourselves. Is there anything in the universe more self absorbed then humans? We have the capacity to achieve so many wonderful things and yet we waste our potential on instant gratification, pointing out other people’s defects and chasing shallow interests. Shouldn’t that be considered “a bad Person”? Wasting our most valuable resource , time , on the most mind numbingly wasteful pastimes.

    When you think about it rationally we live on a planet. Not a country or a continent we live on One planet. We are all made from the same primordial ooze. Xenophobia, racism, borders, languages, sexism, unapologetic greed are all needless barriers to good. Why are they even a thing in the modern world? They are nurtured and allowed to thrive in what is generally becoming a more disengaged species. We have never been so connected yet disconnected. We can communicate with people on the other side of the world. More people have access to more information and education and yet primal instincts are allowed to flourish with apathy perhaps filling in a void left from the decline in religion. Religion is/was certainly not without its flaws, but it had a fundamentally good message with good intentions, it was man who corrupted it like man corrupts everything and then proceeds to blame somebody or something else for the misdeeds.

    I find it difficult to not consider our species a self destructive blight on the earth. If Philanthropic Aliens were watching from Afar, they would be flabbergasted as we inevitably destroy ourselves along with many other victims that suffer the misfortune of having to share the earth. Would they think we as a species are collectively a "good person" ?

    What is interesting is that I usually put this viewpoint down to my depression or low moods and I think a society that enjoys judging everybody else would support this line of thinking. How I am feeling is the problem, there is no truth to my sentiments!. But I’m in a really good place right now , very positive about my future and reading a sort of introduction to philosophy book. My views could be dismissed as “you are just feeling low and projecing that on the world” but I don’t believe this is correct. I’m sort of becoming ok with who I am and what I think. I am loving philosophy if I am exploring it correctly.

    There are so many things that I have a passion to discuss but quite frankly I don’t believe most people have the objectivity or emotional balance to discuss these things without reverting to ingrained prejudice or reverting to quite toxic modern methods of discussion (attack the speaker , less emphasis on engaging them on the content or context of the contents of what they are saying).

    I’m becoming ok with not connecting with the majority on topics which I feel is making me a “more good person”. I am getting less angry at people who I used to brand “stupid or ignorant”. I, like them, are neither right or wrong, I just interpret things differently but I am open to change my view if a more logical explanation is expressed. I am reflecting on this new found insight and regulating to make sure that ego and arrogance does not replace my anger.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Is being "good" a variable? If so, does it vary day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month, year-to-year for a lifetime?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Fathom wrote: »
    Is being "good" a variable? If so, does it vary day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month, year-to-year for a lifetime?

    I think this is the case. A person is neither good nor bad at any given time, is it not by their actions that we, as a society, brand a person "good" or "bad". Its not actually the person that is necessarily bad, but their action. I think this is important, to distinguish a persons compounded actions from the person them-self. This doesn't address the general issue that good and bad are subjectively bias opinions for most people that can be regulated by emotions which are unreliable benchmarks.

    Here is an interesting question. Imagine a person is "good" before they are 30 but something happens later on in their lives that causes them to do "bad things". If, for example, they get Alzheimer's at a later age and revert back to their "pre-30 self" is it right to judge them on actions they did after this age? Are they not technically "reborn" and thus technically not responsible for whatever they did in their later self?

    I can see the broader issue of "well do people doing drugs or drinking too much who cause damage while intoxicated automatically get a pass"? But one thing that differentiates the two is that nobody chooses to get Alzheimers, its a disease that resets or destroys your memory for life. Drinking too much or taking drugs that lead to "bad acts" are a personal decision. I mean this purely in the context of this example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    I've always wondered is it a person's thoughts or actions that determines whether they will be thought of as a "good person" or a "bad person" by society at large.

    For example, if a man is constantly thinking of murdering or stealing or saying hurtful things to people, or rape etc, yet never legally or morally outwardly sets a foot wrong, i.e., is polite, mannerly, helpful, diligent at job, responsible in the home etc, is that person a bad person masquerading as a good person, or is he a good person, or is he judged by his thoughts, is he a bad person.

    It strikes me that he's on a continuum.

    Good person: thinks good and acts good. Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks (and person acts)

    Bad person: thinks bad and acts bad. Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks (and person acts)

    The person who thinks bad/acts good might have bad desires but recognizes them as bad desires and keeps them under control so they can't out. His good side is controlling his bad. He might well be gooder than the good person: his bad thoughts might arise from the influence of others rather than anything he has generated within himself. His effort to resist the bad are more laudible than the no effort it takes a good thinking person to act good.

    On the other hand, a person who thinks bad / acts good might merely be afraid of the consequences of acting out his thoughts. He could be badder than the bad person except he's got cowardice to add to his woes.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Literal vs humourous street talk colloquialisms can imply different meanings for "She's good."


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  • Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    Tim Berners Lee seems like a good person. He's the exact type of person that would do great things if he was the richest man in the world... the proof being that he chose not to become the richest person in the world.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Literal vs humourous street talk colloquialisms can imply different meanings for "She's good."
    Derrida discusses signature. How others interpret or misinterpret what a philosopher has stated. To what extent has "being a good person" been misinterpreted by others when citing classical, modern, or postmodern philosophers? Especially classical, ancient philosophers when Plato writes about Aristotle or Socrates over two thousand years ago. And what about Plato's interpretation of Aristotle's or Socrates' signature, and in particular what may address being a good person per Aristotle?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Fathom wrote: »
    Derrida discusses signature. How others interpret or misinterpret what a philosopher has stated. To what extent has "being a good person" been misinterpreted by others when citing classical, modern, or postmodern philosophers?
    Signature has been a major problem when citing others, even when quoting.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Signature has been a major problem when citing others, even when quoting.
    Multiple citations for reliability?


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