Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

GerardKeating · 29-01-2018 8:27am

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm not sure building a PT link with a catchment only on one side is a clever idea.

They did that with the DART, and it still packed most days.

salmocab · 29-01-2018 8:38am

GerardKeating wrote: »

They did that with the DART, and it still packed most days.

In fairness that was done because the tracks existed not because it made sense route wise, it also only runs every 15 minutes at peak times although that’s meant to come down to 10 if they can make the union agree.

Frostybrew · 29-01-2018 9:33am

Markcheese wrote: »

Well, the section that would head down the a quays from the city towards Blackrock will have water on one side.... Effectively halving its catchment area... And further on it goes through a park, and Blackrock isn't high density either, it's not till you get towards mahon that you get significant density, and that's one sided as well..

There's a short stretch between PUC and Dundanion that is one sided. The rest is fine.

Have you a better solution?

EnzoScifo · 29-01-2018 11:54pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Well, the section that would head down the a quays from the city towards Blackrock will have water on one side.... Effectively halving its catchment area... And further on it goes through a park, and Blackrock isn't high density either, it's not till you get towards mahon that you get significant density, and that's one sided as well..

not true really. The plans are for the PT route to go down centre park road to service the docklands and then a short run by the marina and down to Blackrock. While Blackrock itself isn't high density, the old abode centre will eventually become apartments and then you have the major trip generators in Mahon business park, Mahon Point & Jacobs Island.

Carawaystick · 30-01-2018 1:14am

GerardKeating wrote: »

They did that with the DART, and it still packed most days.

Because Blackrock in Dublin is more populated than Blackrock in Louth or COrk combined... let alone Dún Laoghaire or Bray.

marno21 · 30-01-2018 4:28am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Because Blackrock in Dublin is more populated than Blackrock in Louth or COrk combined... let alone Dún Laoghaire or Bray.

The objective here is for a new public transport network to service Blackrock in Cork in order to faciliate further expansion. It's no wonder that's the case if Cork Blackrock is reliant on car.

Time for certain people to wake up and smell some 21st century coffee. And I'm not talking about posters on here.

30-01-2018 11:34am

Given that the numbers are just not there plus the fact that there are a number of ways to increase capacity in the buses as an alternative, I fear any development of a light rail system outside of the capital at this stage would be to this transport option what the WRC is to heavy rail i.e. kill any other potential development due to low usage and massive subvention

Yes Cork, then Limerick, then Galway will need light rail but not for a long while yet

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 12:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that the numbers are just not there plus the fact that there are a number of ways to increase capacity in the buses as an alternative, I fear any development of a light rail system outside of the capital at this stage would be to this transport option what the WRC is to heavy rail i.e. kill any other potential development due to low usage and massive subvention

Yes Cork, then Limerick, then Galway will need light rail but not for a long while yet

I think the failure to put free flow junctions onto the M50 when it was originally being constructed, due to short sighted planning, is a more appropriate parallel for the public transport situation in Cork. This was an expensive and costly failure in transport planning, and what you are suggesting is of a similar vein for a different mode of transport.

The rapid transit study released in 2009 found a positive cost benefit ratio for both BRT and LRT in Cork. This was based on 2006 data. Both population and employment have expanded since then, as has traffic congestion, which means we are already at least 10 years too late in the implementation of a solution.

Buses are the answer in some areas. However at least one, possibly two rapid transit solutions are necessary to alleviate present day issues and facilitate the the high level of growth that is planned for the area.

bk · 30-01-2018 12:46pm

Well as it stands, the demand certainly isn't currently there for a BRT, never mind a LRT.

Having family there, I spend a lot of time in the area. The 202 is one of the best bus services in Cork. 10 minute frequency and often has modern double deckers on it. Great route which serves Mahon Shopping Center, City Center and up to Apple.

Decent numbers use it, but pretty light compared to any Dublin Bus core route. So on it's own it wouldn't justify BRT.

However hopefully with big redevelopment of the docks and thousands of new apartments, the numbers would be there to support BRT.

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 1:12pm

bk wrote: »

Well as it stands, the demand certainly isn't currently there for a BRT, never mind a LRT.

Having family there, I spend a lot of time in the area. The 202 is one of the best bus services in Cork. 10 minute frequency and often has modern double deckers on it. Great route which serves Mahon Shopping Center, City Center and up to Apple.

Decent numbers use it, but pretty light compared to any Dublin Bus core route. So on it's own it wouldn't justify BRT.

However hopefully with big redevelopment of the docks and thousands of new apartments, the numbers would be there to support BRT.

The rail transit study found that this is not the case. With the development of the Docklands LRT will be a necessary.

The N25 from Midleton is currently the busiest radial route into Cork city and is approaching capacity for a four lane motorway. It serves the commuting towns of Cobh, Glounthaune, Carrigtohill, and Midleton, a combined population of approximately 30,000. The Little Island area, a large industrial estate on the outskirts of Cork just off the N25, supports 8000 workers.

To put all of this in context. The docklands development will add a population of 30,000 and 40,000 jobs, the equivalent of five Little Island Industrial Estates, plus Cobh, Midleton, Carrigtohill, and Glounthaune into a relatively small geographically restricted area.

The new development will need a radical, robust, and progressive transport solution.

How exactly do you expect to do this with buses? It's simply not possible.

namloc1980 · 30-01-2018 2:10pm

bk wrote: »

Well as it stands, the demand certainly isn't currently there for a BRT, never mind a LRT.

Having family there, I spend a lot of time in the area. The 202 is one of the best bus services in Cork. 10 minute frequency and often has modern double deckers on it. Great route which serves Mahon Shopping Center, City Center and up to Apple.

Decent numbers use it, but pretty light compared to any Dublin Bus core route. So on it's own it wouldn't justify BRT.

However hopefully with big redevelopment of the docks and thousands of new apartments, the numbers would be there to support BRT.

A BRT was found to be viable in the 2010 CATS study. That was during the global recession. With economic improvements and population growth, not to mention the docklands expansion I believe the case now is stronger than the one in 2010. A huge mistake would be to build all these offices and residential buildings in the docklands and only then when the place is jammed with cars decide to look at the transport.

bk · 30-01-2018 2:15pm

Frostybrew wrote: »

How exactly do you expect to do this with buses? It's simply not possible.

Balfast has a population almost twice that of Cork and it is only getting it's first BRT now.

I'll need to go read that report, but I seriously doubt Cork has demand high enough to justify LRT.

namloc1980 · 30-01-2018 2:24pm

bk wrote: »

Balfast has a population almost twice that of Cork and it is only getting it's first BRT now.

I'll need to go read that report, but I seriously doubt Cork has demand high enough to justify LRT.

Don't think public transport in NI is a model we should be benchmarking ourselves against to be honest. There are cities in Europe similar in size to Cork with extensive BRT and even LRT systems. Look at Metz for example.

bk · 30-01-2018 2:42pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Don't think public transport in NI is a model we should be benchmarking ourselves against to be honest. There are cities in Europe similar in size to Cork with extensive BRT and even LRT systems. Look at Metz for example.

Fair enough, good counter argument, though I would worry that the more expensive it is, the less likely it is to get the go ahead.

Also you'd have the issue of maybe having one great LRT line, when the rest of the bus network around the rest of the city is quiet poor and needs more work.

I'd rather see 10 minute frequency on all routes + double deckers and a BRT, then a LRT and the terrible service many routes currently suffer from.

bk · 30-01-2018 2:54pm

Err.. Sorry so I seem to mixing up reports here, having just checked, the 2010 CATS study, suggests BRT, not LRT. Which is exactly what I thought was being suggested for Cork and is inline with what I said above.

Interestingly the CATS study also mentions the need to upgrade all bus routes in the network, not just one BRT route, like I suggested above.

bk · 30-01-2018 3:07pm

So yes, looks at Cork City Councils report here:

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/transportationdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf

It clearly finds BRT to be the more reasonable solution for Cork:

In the context of the current land use plan for the CASP area, this Rapid Transit
Corridor could operate as Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), or similar system. The line’s
maximum flows do not indicate that investment in a fixed rail system such as LRT is
required, even for a 2030 scenario with a greater than 50% growth in population and
employment in the full CASP area compared to 2006 levels;

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 3:43pm

bk wrote: »

So yes, looks at Cork City Councils report here:

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/transportationdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf

It clearly finds BRT to be the more reasonable solution for Cork:

It does find in favour of BRT, though there's a number details that need to be addressed in relation to the report.

If you have a look at the numbers you'll find that LRT will create a greater economic return in the long term. The BRT system is costed at €300milion delivering a benefit to cost ratio (BCR) of 2.85 including development along the corridor. This equates to an economic return of €555 million to the Cork area. LRT will cost about a billion with a BCR of 1.47 which equates an economic return of €470 million euro. So BRT delivers a greater economic return to the tune of €85 million.

This looks good. But what if you have to upgrade to LRT as demand rises? Then you're in serious trouble, as an extra €700 million is necessary, leaving you €615 million worse off than if you had gone with LRT.

There's an old German saying: "Buy low, Buy twice".

We do that an awful lot in Ireland, and the Germans do excellent public transport.

bk · 30-01-2018 4:17pm

The problem is politically it would be much harder to get 1 billion for LRT for Cork, versus 300 million.

And you have to remember this happening at the same time Cork is also getting a 1 billion M20.

Also you would then have much greater risks with the project actually delivering:

Whilst additional development along the Rapid Transit Corridor is recommended if the
system is developed as BRT, a radical departure from CASP Update would be required
to facilitate implementation of LRT. Furthermore, developing the system as LRT would
be a higher risk strategy, as its operational success would be dependent on significant
future development/ redevelopment along the corridor;

It could easily end up being another WRC and permanently damaging the development of future transport projects.

Also it would take much longer to build.

To be honest, politically unfortunately I just see LRT being a non-runner for Cork. BRT seems to be a better fit for the demand there and politically an easier sell.

Sure, 40 years from now you may well be upgrading it to LRT. But I fear if you try and push for LRT now, you will end up with nothing at all for the next 40 years.

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 4:44pm

bk wrote: »

The problem is politically it would be much harder to get 1 billion for LRT for Cork, versus 300 million.

And you have to remember this happening at the same time Cork is also getting a 1 billion M20.

Also you would then have much greater risks with the project actually delivering:

It could easily end up being another WRC and permanently damaging the development of future transport projects.

Also it would take much longer to build.

To be honest, politically unfortunately I just see LRT being a non-runner for Cork. BRT seems to be a better fit for the demand there and politically an easier sell.

Sure, 40 years from now you may well be upgrading it to LRT. But I fear if you try and push for LRT now, you will end up with nothing at all for the next 40 years.

The issue of the WRC is irrelevant to this discussion as it had a non existent BCR to begin with. In fact, if a bit more had been spent on it, such as investing in a proper Shannon connection and a more direct route to Galway, it might have turned out as less of a white elephant. Plus it's a completely different type of transport: inter city rail as opposed to mass urban transport.

The fact of the matter is: we as a nation have been consistently underdelivering when it comes to our infrastructure, building half- assed solutions that turn out to be totally inadequate for demand. It's a very long and costly list: including the DART, the LUAS, the M50, the Cork NRR, the Cork SRR, the N25 to Youghal, our airports and many more. Not to mention closing a whole slew of railways just as suburbanisation was about to explode into life around them. For the sake of saving €85 million it's just not worth it.

It wasn't politically viable in 2009 when the report was released, for obvious reasons. Not so now, especially with Brexit forcing a drastic change in economic and infrastructural policy.

You must also remember that that €1 billion for the M20 is for the whole of the western seaboard and not just for Cork.

cgcsb · 30-01-2018 5:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that the numbers are just not there plus the fact that there are a number of ways to increase capacity in the buses as an alternative, I fear any development of a light rail system outside of the capital at this stage would be to this transport option what the WRC is to heavy rail i.e. kill any other potential development due to low usage and massive subvention

Yes Cork, then Limerick, then Galway will need light rail but not for a long while yet

The numbers are certainly there. Cities the size of Cork and way smaller the world over have good light rail coverage. I think we can abandon the notion of urban public transport infrastructure in this country ever being under utilized, given that has never happened and probably wont because infrastructure is so chronically underfunded. Irish governments tend to prefer to give people an extra €2 a week than build these critical pieces of hardware.

bk · 30-01-2018 5:17pm

Frostybrew wrote: »

You must also remember that that €1 billion for the M20 is for the whole of the western seaboard and not just for Cork.

Doesn't matter, it won't be seen like that by the public.

The fact of the matter is that these things get decided by politicians. Push for LRT for Cork and you will end up with buttons. BRT + big upgrades to Cork City bus network is a more realistic goal.

cgcsb · 30-01-2018 5:21pm

bk wrote: »

Decent numbers use it, but pretty light compared to any Dublin Bus core route. So on it's own it wouldn't justify BRT.

A very scientific analysis there. The Dublin Bus comparison is hardly valid. Dublin Bus is HEAVILY over subscribed major routes should've been replaced by rail decades ago. Also Dublin has largely achieved it's desired modal shift to PT. Cork still has to achieve that switch away from the car and that can only be done by providing a good alternative. Transport policy will see much of Cork City Centre closed to cars in the coming years and then you'll see Dublin style sardine buses.

bk wrote: »

However hopefully with big redevelopment of the docks and thousands of new apartments, the numbers would be there to support BRT.

The proposals for Cork's docklands are transformative, more so than Dublin's docklands. The plan is to add thousands of apartments to the area which in % terms represents a huge re-concentration of metropolitain Cork's population back into the centre, that has to be accommodated, all those people cannot be driving cars around the place.

cgcsb · 30-01-2018 5:25pm

bk wrote: »

Balfast has a population almost twice that of Cork and it is only getting it's first BRT now.

I'll need to go read that report, but I seriously doubt Cork has demand high enough to justify LRT.

Provincial UK public transport policy is a disaster, Belfast is especially bad because, while the rest of the UK suffered from 20th Century suburbanization, Belfast City Centre was physically closed with actual gates and armed soldiers after sundown for decades, with a simultaneously imposed curfew, the result is a particularly suburbanized and car dependent culture, even by UK standards.

draiochtanois · 30-01-2018 5:25pm

This post has been deleted.

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 5:35pm

bk wrote: »

Doesn't matter, it won't be seen like that by the public.

The fact of the matter is that these things get decided by politicians. Push for LRT for Cork and you will end up with buttons. BRT + big upgrades to Cork City bus network is a more realistic goal.

Apparently Shane Ross is keen on LRT for Cork. It's not totally decided by politicians. Senior civil servants, advisors, and lobbyists have a greater say, and are a little bit panicked by Brexit behind the scenes. Which is probably why Ross has suddenly become so keen.

cgcsb wrote: »

A very scientific analysis there. The Dublin Bus comparison is hardly valid. Dublin Bus is HEAVILY over subscribed major routes should've been replaced by rail decades ago. Also Dublin has largely achieved it's desired modal shift to PT. Cork still has to achieve that switch away from the car and that can only be done by providing a good alternative. Transport policy will see much of Cork City Centre closed to cars in the coming years and then you'll see Dublin style sardine buses.

The proposals for Cork's docklands are transformative, more so than Dublin's docklands. The plan is to add thousands of apartments to the area which in % terms represents a huge re-concentration of metropolitain Cork's population back into the centre, that has to be accommodated, all those people cannot be driving cars around the place.

The goal for Cork is to avoid the expensive mistakes (underinvesting in public transport) that Dublin has made.

bk · 30-01-2018 7:57pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A very scientific analysis there. The Dublin Bus comparison is hardly valid. Dublin Bus is HEAVILY over subscribed major routes should've been replaced by rail decades ago. Also Dublin has largely achieved it's desired modal shift to PT. Cork still has to achieve that switch away from the car and that can only be done by providing a good alternative. Transport policy will see much of Cork City Centre closed to cars in the coming years and then you'll see Dublin style sardine buses.

Well if you would like to give us a more scientific analysis, please do! :mad:

The 202 is one of the busiest routes in Cork, yet, I'm certain it wouldn't even break the top 30 routes in Dublin. Thus suggesting spending 1 billion replacing it seems to be pretty pre-mature!

And I will point you to Cork City Councils own report which clearly doesn't find enough demand for LRT.

cgcsb wrote: »

The proposals for Cork's docklands are transformative, more so than Dublin's docklands. The plan is to add thousands of apartments to the area which in % terms represents a huge re-concentration of metropolitain Cork's population back into the centre, that has to be accommodated, all those people cannot be driving cars around the place.

I agree, it is very impressive. But it needs to get started. Their is little evidence of even a sniff of it getting started unfortunately. It is pretty pie in the sky stuff at the moment.

bk · 30-01-2018 8:00pm

Frostybrew wrote: »

Apparently Shane Ross is keen on LRT for Cork. It's not totally decided by politicians. Senior civil servants, advisors, and lobbyists have a greater say, and are a little bit panicked by Brexit behind the scenes. Which is probably why Ross has suddenly become so keen.

Interesting, though might turn into a white elephant or never get off the ground.

Great if it does happen, but I'd worry it will just turn into years more of promises and reports and no action as usual.

Frostybrew wrote: »

The goal for Cork is to avoid the expensive mistakes (underinvesting in public transport) that Dublin has made.

Cork has already been making that mistake for decades. Dublin actually has very high public transport usage, Cork is ridiculously low.

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 8:38pm

bk wrote: »

I agree, it is very impressive. But it needs to get started. Their is little evidence of even a sniff of it getting started unfortunately. It is pretty pie in the sky stuff at the moment.

The docklands has started though. Beginning in 2005 with the Clarion redevelopment, and the Elysian in 2008; along with smaller office developments on Monaghan road. These are all part of the original 2001 masterplan announcement. You also now have One Albert Quay and Navigation House with the redeveloped PUC and Marina Park. All of this will require a viable rapid transit solution.

bk wrote: »

Interesting, though might turn into a white elephant or never get off the ground.

Great if it does happen, but I'd worry it will just turn into years more of promises and reports and no action as usual.

Cork has already been making that mistake for decades. Dublin actually has very high public transport usage, Cork is ridiculously low.

It's not a Cork mistake though. Both councils have been crying out for investment in public transport since the 70s, but have little political power or financial resources to make it happen. Central government is at fault here.

Luckily we now have a crisis which looks like having an impact for the better, at least as far as public transport provision in Cork is concerned. Let's just hope the powers that be don't end up going for a cut price solution which will end up costing the city more than half a billion euro in the long term.

man98 · 30-01-2018 10:09pm

But the issue with Cork's public transport is that no one uses it because it's cripplingly slow, due to a lack of leap cards. I rarely use Cork City PT any more as I live in the centre but there's times I've been on the 208 and there'd be 3 double decker buses which leave Bishopstown and repeatedly pass each other out, and by the city centre they become quite full. Even at midday this was happening. The time buses spend stopped and giving out tickets is much more than trams. While leap cards can cut this, they cannot eliminate this. LRT can give the same 10 minute service, could go contra flow on one way systems, it's much easier to put preferential signalling in place. I think LRT is what Cork needs to start its culture change. CIT, Bishopstown, UCC, the centre, the docks, Mahon and Douglas could easily be connected with a fast and semi frequent service - this is ideally speaking. As pointed out above, we settle for sub par transport rather than providing for our future in Ireland time and time again, so we're unlikely to see improvement any time soon.

namloc1980 · 30-01-2018 10:40pm

man98 wrote: »

But the issue with Cork's public transport is that no one uses it because it's cripplingly slow, due to a lack of leap cards.

Every bus is equipped for Leap cards. There is no lack of Leap cards. A huge issue is that people prefer to use change/cash for unknown reasons. Perhaps they simply don't know what they are or are unaware that Leap fares are 30% cheaper than cash, I don't know.

The fact you can pay a city bus fare in Cork with a €20 note is ridiculous. The amount of wasted time where a driver is counting out change makes the bus less efficient. Cork missed a huge opportunity recently when the NTA made city and suburbs one single bus zone but went with the ludicrous decision of introducing stage fares. So even with Leap there is driver interaction instead of having a reader that everyone could tap on.

Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

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