Gem

Pharmabud wrote: »

Hi all,

I wonder could you help me clarify something.

I’m wondering about eligibility for GEM.

I studied animal science in UCD and got a 2.2 honours degree and went on to study pharmacy at RCSI. I came top of my class with a 1.1 degree in pharmacy. I did my intern training in a large teaching hospital and now would like to consider medicine as a career.

After reading through GEM requirements it states that you need a 2.1 honours or above in your “first” degree.

Does this mean, despite my first class honours pharmacy degree and clinical pharmacy experience, I am ineligible to apply for GEM because my first degree was a 2.2 in animal science ?

Thank you for your help on it.

Hi Pharmabud, from what I gathered at the UL open day this year, I think your first degree makes you ineligible for GEM. They reiterated a few times that the 2:1 requirement applies to your first degree only and that having a second degree with a 2:1/1:1 does not change this. It seems like such a harsh rule, especially for cases like yours!
You should definitely still be eligible (and probably a very good candidate with 1:1 in pharmacy) to apply as a mature student to undergrad medicine though! It would take the extra year to complete but still an option!

Going the mature route is an alright Idea I think as you have some experience, but, If I'm not mistaken, mature entry students will have lots of nurses and other health field specialists with multiple years of experience in hospitals etc. And I also assume that you would rather do a 4 years of med instead 5/6.

Best bet I think is to look at UK. I think you would have a much better chance there as you have a pharma degree, and even though all unis look at the first degree for your 2.1 or above, some accept with a 2.2 or overlook the first degree. Off the top of my head I know Nottingham accepts 2.2


Also, I assume your pharma degree is an undergrad degree and not masters? If that's not the case you can also look at St Georges London as I think they overlook your first degree in the case that you have a masters, which only requires a pass to qualify.

Also, the gamsat points for these are quite similar to Ireland and in general, their courses are cheaper with MUCH MUCH better funding opportunities.
The difficulty is then with interviews and experience as they expect you have worked and volunteered for a few weeks at different "health" related fields... which might not be a bad thing.

If youre certain on medicine, then there are ways to get in with a 2.2, and imo mature student route is the most difficult as you cant get "years" of experience just like that. Unfortunatley, Ireland is very rigid and does not look past the fact that you have 2.2 when you were 21 instead of looking at first degree in a science/medical related course.

There might be more UK unis, or even other European (id only recommend Italy or Poland tho), you just need to do some research.

Let me know if you have questions.

Pharmabud wrote: »

Thanks a million for this.

Can anyone see the requirement for 2.1 in your first degree changing at any stage ?

Unfortunately there have been no indications it will change.

The UK route and HPAT are your best options.

Iscreamkone wrote: »

Not many people have two Level 8 degrees. I don't imagine anyone would assume you have two unless you tell them. I don't know how they could even check this without breaking some GDPR rules. Interesting one.

What you are advising is extremely unethical and could endanger the OPs licence in the future. Admission is conditional and revocable if gained fraudulently.

For what it's worth, I transferred to a different university at one point in my academic career and was specifically asked to demonstrate that I did not have two level 8 degrees. It was the reason I was deemed ineligible by the CAO and I successfully appealed it, as I don't in fact have two degrees.

Flimsy_Boat wrote: »

What you are advising is extremely unethical and could endanger the OPs licence in the future. Admission is conditional and revocable if gained fraudulently.

For what it's worth, I transferred to a different university at one point in my academic career and was specifically asked to demonstrate that I did not have two level 8 degrees. It was the reason I was deemed ineligible by the CAO and I successfully appealed it, as I don't in fact have two degrees.

I'm only playing devil's advocate here and not advising anything illegal.
I certainly do not think it could endanger the OPs future licence in any way though. If you are not caught at admission I can't see how or who would be checking afterwards. Still, it's best to go the straight route.

If it's not really enforceable shouldn't the powers that be look at changing the rule. Any 2.1 or Level 9 degree should be acceptable.

Iscreamkone wrote: »

The CAO would only have a record of application and not of completion?

Good point, although that alone could be a red flag that they would look in to.

Iscreamkone wrote: »

How did you prove that you didn't have two degrees?
It's like trying to prove that god doesn't exist?

You compare the transcripts and look at the dates, and conclude that it would have been impossible to gain two degrees in the given timeframe. They needed that clarification in writing from the applicant, I suppose.

Pharmabud wrote: »

I hear what you’re saying and this is a terribly stupid rule considering people’s different set of circumstances etc. I don’t think changing anything that might end up in having your admission revoked would be worth it firstly . And to be fair, a large part of being a doctor is to be ethical and operate within the rules. However, I can’t explain my frustration on this given my clinical experience, research background and the fact I actually have a first class honours degree in a degree quite closely related to medicine itself.

Thanks for all your replies

I completely agree, I would be afraid that they could revoke your acceptance if it ever came forward.

I do think you should look into the mature entry pathway. RCSI offer 15 places
TCD 8
NUIG 7/8
Unsure about Cork.

RCSI and TCD don’t rely too much on the HPAT. With your background, and clinical experience you would definitely have a huge chance of being accepted. Even though it’s an additional year (5 year programme compared to 4) it’s better than relocating to a different country and having issues returning to Ireland for training schemes.

Unfortuneately through experience, you are deemed ineligible unless you provide proof that you did not complete level 8 offers accepted through CAO. Proof in the form of a letter stating such from the registry department of the institution.

Some courses now run directly to Level 9. Engineering now gives a Level 9 ME after 5 years (with an opt out at Level 8 BE after 4 years - but the decision to finish with a Level 8 or 9 must be made after Year 3, I think).
Pharmacy also gives the MPharm after 5 years. It is very common in the UK for degrees to run straight through to a Masters degree.

Which result is counted for GEM? Year 4 result (without a degree award) or Year 5 (Level 9)?