Carpentry in Ireland in 1800s

jo_gil · 09-10-2017 3:58am #1

In the mid 1800s I have several ancestors identified as ‘Carpenter’ by trade. They were living in both Roscommon and Longford areas. I would like to understand if the job titles “Carpenter” or “Master Carpenter” was formal, i.e. any qualifications, registration, records, institutions, or authorities to approve etc. Is there any way to follow their tracks other than BDM records?

pedroeibar1 · 09-10-2017 12:11pm

They are levels of qualification. If he was described as a carpenter on an official document he was a trained artisan i.e. he had served an apprenticeship. After that time he became a journeyman carpenter for a few years, working for another in a workshop or on an outside job. He then applied to the guild to become a ‘master carpenter’. I don’t know about Ireland, but on the continent it was usual to make a ‘masterpiece’ before being admitted to the guild as a master carpenter. At that stage he could take on apprentices. There are some guild records for carpenters but I think they predate your period.
Trade directories e.g. Slaters, would list your people if they were recognized carpenters. If you had clues for them and links to any dates/building projects (‘big house’ or churches) you could search ‘The Builder’ magazine – some vols are online, all are in the NLI on microfilm. Try phoning the Building and Allied Trades Union to see if they could give you a pointer or two for records.

Arsemageddon · 09-10-2017 3:51pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

They are levels of qualification. If he was described as a carpenter on an official document he was a trained artisan i.e. he had served an apprenticeship. After that time he became a journeyman carpenter for a few years, working for another in a workshop or on an outside job. He then applied to the guild to become a ‘master carpenter’. I don’t know about Ireland, but on the continent it was usual to make a ‘masterpiece’ before being admitted to the guild as a master carpenter. At that stage he could take on apprentices

The tradition of journeymen is still alive in Germany. In order to become a master craftsman they have to wander for 3 years and work only for food and lodging. They can be usually be identified by their traditional all corduroy costumes.

Ocasionally these lads turn up in Ireland. Despite not having any work for them I have on two occasions I have invited them to stay. To my mind anyone who is prepared to but that much effort into learning their craft and preserving a wonderful tradition deserves the height of respect.

riffmongous · 09-10-2017 4:03pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

The tradition of journeymen is still alive in Germany. In order to become a master craftsman they have to wander for 3 years and work only for food and lodging. They can be usually be identified by their traditional all corduroy costumes.

Ocasionally these lads turn up in Ireland. Despite not having any work for them I have on two occasions I have invited them to stay. To my mind anyone who is prepared to but that much effort into learning their craft and preserving a wonderful tradition deserves the height of respect.

Yes Wandergesellen, auf der Walz, which is where Waltzing Matilda comes from. The first time I saw them, carpenters dressed in black, I had no idea what they were, they looked like a medieval heavy metal band with bell bottoms.

pedroeibar1 · 10-10-2017 12:06am

Yes, I was aware of the German practice, but did not want to get into the whole journée / journeyman thing as it had long disappeared in Ireland by the time of the OP’s family mentioned above. I've never heard of the German 'graduates' visiting Ireland, but well done on the hospitality.:) Also, I'd be a little wary of jumping to the conclusion of the Australian background to the 'waltz' bit as 'waltzing' is Ozzy slang for going walkabout, not necessarily based on the 'auf der Waltz'. (I've the same linguistic / etymology 'issues' with that book claiming Irish words in US black culture slang e.g. 'snas' = Snazzy)

The claim to be the oldest ‘trade union’ in Ireland is AFAIK held by the carpenters, with their ‘Carpenters Society’ back in the 1700’s. The Genealogical Office at the NLI has some Carpenter records back to the 1600's - also there is overlap with with 'freemen' records but that too is not much use to the OP because by the time of his dates many freemen acquired that status by birth or marriage and his were not in Dublin.

Years ago there was a very good restaurant in the 6th in Paris called ‘Aux Charpentiers’, so-named because the carpenters guild used to meet there. It has many 'masterpieces' on display, along with old saws, adzes, etc. These models were test pieces, made for admission to the guild as master. (Hence the etymology of the word.) Most were scale models of very complex roof structures, considerably more intricate than the plain fare on the menu. It went a bit twee in recent years, the models were moved to make room for more tables when it got notoriety, into the guides, etc. Sadly it closed last year.

jo_gil · 10-10-2017 8:02am

Many thanks all for sharing your good advice and knowledge

Some 20 years ago I met an old Irishman employed in the upkeep of Buckingham Palace. This friend of a friend had worked his life as a Carpenter and claimed he knew well a Gill family of Longford, said they made furniture for schools and churches. He seemed genuine enough, but so far nothing to prove it either way. I will look into trade directories as suggested by @pedroeibar1

jo_gil · 10-10-2017 8:11am

For my part, all that I know for certain is my ggf Bernard Gill was a Carpenter per marriage and census (both 1901/ 1911); his occupation also listed in court appearances, and dog license records. His father (Martin Gill) was also a Carpenter – per Bernard’s marriage record.

PS Bernard Gill (Carpenter) married Elizabeth Casey in Ballyleague, Roscommon on 01 Feb 1884

Carpentry in Ireland in 1800s

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