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Nazi officer who saved Paris, June 1940?

  • 20-10-2010 7:14pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭


    On the radio sometime today somebody - apologies for the vagueness! -mentioned that some German officer or general in 1940 saved the city from being bombed by his compatriots during the Nazi invasion. I had never heard anything about this before. Does anybody know anything else about it?


Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    Albert Speer perhaps?

    I know he claims some credit for preventing Hitler's policy of burning the cities they retreated from but he wasn't an officer.

    It was a disillusioned Speer, who violated Hitler's "scorched earth" orders near the end of the war. Hitler ordered the destruction of roads, factories, bridges, entire cities, in an effort to delay the end. Speer sided with the generals who refused to destroy Paris and other cities. Hitler would issue ruthless orders, then Speer, who had the power and the respect of those in charge of the army, would countermand them. Speer felt the German people would need the things that Hitler wanted to destroy. In his book, Inside the Third Reich, Speer explained that he could see no need to hurt the civilian population needlessly, since he knew the war was lost.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Dionysus wrote: »
    On the radio sometime today somebody - apologies for the vagueness! -mentioned that some German officer or general in 1940 saved the city from being bombed by his compatriots during the Nazi invasion. I had never heard anything about this before. Does anybody know anything else about it?

    Are you talking of the guest on Sean Moncrieff talking about a book they'd written on Coco Chanele (spelling). I think they were talking about Hitlers order to destroy Paris, which wasn't obeyed, as the Nazi's were leaving the city and not at the time they invaded it.

    It should be available on Newstalks website as a Podcast, at some stage!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭donaghs


    von Cholititz is given credit for disobeying Hitler's orders to destroy Paris and fight a last ditch urban warfare campaign there, in 1944.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz

    Some people have questioned his post-war accounts of just how much a "good guy" he was, but it does seem that he did make efforts to save the city, and to a slightly lesser extent people's lives. And that a different commander could have had a more drastic effect on the place - e.g. Warsaw in 1944.

    There was some light bombing of Paris in 1940, but the city was left undefended due to the speed of the German advance, and the French government fleeing to Bordeaux. And the city also escaped an major Allied bombing during the war, unlike places of military or transportation significance - e.g. Le Harve, Caen, St. Nazaire, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Speer was also very good at "revising" his post-war reputation. This began by breaking with the leading leading Nazis, and cooperating with the Nuremburg Trials. And his post-war biographies.

    He wasn't the most fanatical of Nazi's, but his main wartime legacy was to increase German armaments productions, despite increased Allied strategic bombing of means of production and supply. And this increase was partly achieved through the very cruel use of slave labour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Speer was credited with preserving Germany, first by delaying orders, then tasking them at a lower priority then outright refusing to issue or follow them even to Hitlers face.

    The story of the guy who saved paris rings a bell, though my memory of it (without checking) was something along the lines of a commander with 3 or 4 field guns and a handful of tanks being mysteriously asked to 'level the city'.

    Something along those lines - ie it would not have been possible for him to have levelled it in any event had he been given such an order.

    To me this notion of levelling cities out of spite has the ring of post war propaganda or exaggeration to it. I can't think of any cities off hand which were systematically levelled by the Germans during their retreat (for the sake of levelling the city - rather than delaying an enemy advance by blowing bridges etc).

    Aside from Warsaw which had a citywide Polish uprising which makes it a special case.

    First of all without 24x7 blanket bombing from a then pretty much non exsistent Luftwaffe it would take weeks if not months to accomplish with artillery/field guns (which were also not present in the required numbers).
    It would have served no military purpose either at that stage. Blowing bridges, airfields etc of course but levelling opera houses & art galleries is doubtful.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Morlar wrote: »
    The story of the guy who saved paris rings a bell, though my memory of it (without checking) was something along the lines of a commander with 3 or 4 field guns and a handful of tanks being mysteriously asked to 'level the city'.

    The story of Von Choltitz and the fall of Paris to the Allies is told in some detail in a book called "Is Paris Burning?" by Larry Collins and Dominique LaPierre. They are the same guys who wrote the famous "Oh Jerusalem" about the battle for the Holy City during the 1948 Arab Israeli War.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Morlar wrote: »
    First of all without 24x7 blanket bombing from a then pretty much non exsistent Luftwaffe it would take weeks if not months to accomplish with artillery/field guns (which were also not present in the required numbers).
    It would have served no military purpose either at that stage. Blowing bridges, airfields etc of course but levelling opera houses & art galleries is doubtful.

    That's true, but I think Hitler would have preferred the Paris garrison to hold out there, like they did in ports like Dunkirk (surrendered 1945) and destroy Paris in the process. Hitler also had an aversion to "strategic retreats", even sensible ones.

    The Paris Uprising began slowly on the 19th August 1944, and ended with Allied regular troops arriving and the German surrender on the 24th.

    Von Cholitz claimed Hitler ordered him to resist and destroy as much of Paris as possible.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_Paris


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    In that programme, I may be wrong on this, I think there was also reference made to Wilhelm Canaris.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    donaghs wrote: »
    I think Hitler would have preferred the Paris garrison to hold out there, like they did in ports like Dunkirk (surrendered 1945) and destroy Paris in the process.

    That's different however to 'ordering them to level the city'.

    In places where the Germans held out and the locale suffered vast destruction Caen, St Nazaire etc the destruction was caused by allied bombing not by Germans 'levelling' as part of their retreat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    That's different however to 'ordering them to level the city'.

    In places where the Germans held out and the locale suffered vast destruction Caen, St Nazaire etc the destruction was caused by allied bombing not by Germans 'levelling' as part of their retreat.

    Choltitz is credited with saving Paris. This is mainly based on his own reflections in post-war memoirs. I would be cynical on his motives however. The facts show he was a loyal and clever Officer for most of World war 2. At the end of the war following the Allied invasions he 'saved' Paris (according to himself firstly). Whilst of course retreating Germans had caused alot of harm in other areas (particularly eastern front) they did not always do this in Western & Mediteranean europe cities.

    In my opinion Chorlitz after many years participation in Nazi policy talked himself up to improve his personal lot. In an earlier role, which he admitted also following the war (he downplayed his own role), he had been involved in extermination of Jews in Crimea on the eastern front. I would have thought this should be his legacy rather than some sort of hero for his role in Paris


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    donaghs wrote: »
    Speer was also very good at "revising" his post-war reputation. This began by breaking with the leading leading Nazis, and cooperating with the Nuremburg Trials. And his post-war biographies.

    He wasn't the most fanatical of Nazi's, but his main wartime legacy was to increase German armaments productions, despite increased Allied strategic bombing of means of production and supply. And this increase was partly achieved through the very cruel use of slave labour.
    " Allied strategic bombing " - More like indiscriminate mass bombing of German civilians.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Choltitz is credited with saving Paris. This is mainly based on his own reflections in post-war memoirs.

    Hardly. I got this from Wikipedia on Choltitz
    He was buried at the city cemetery of Baden-Baden in the presence of high-ranking French officers. Baden-Baden was the post-WWII French headquarters in Germany.

    So the French appreciated him.

    The story about Eastern Europe seems to be based on a recording from a fellow inmate when he was in Allied custody. He wasnt brought before Nuremberg. Or course that may have been due to lack of evidence, or because the French were sympathetic to him. Dont know. Nothing is proven about the East, but he did save Paris in the West.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Hardly. I got this from Wikipedia on Choltitz



    So the French appreciated him.

    The story about Eastern Europe seems to be based on a recording from a fellow inmate when he was in Allied custody. He wasnt brought before Nuremberg. Or course that may have been due to lack of evidence, or because the French were sympathetic to him. Dont know. Nothing is proven about the East, but he did save Paris in the West.

    The French appreciated him because they thought he saved Paris. That is not in doubt.

    I think you have the eastern front bit wrong. The recording was of him admitting to carrying out orders that involved liquadating Jews- http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz?qsrc=3044
    The Nuremburg trials were stopped as the Western allies were building Germany up to support them in the cold war which was starting around that time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    The French appreciated him because they thought he saved Paris. That is not in doubt.

    I think you have the eastern front bit wrong. The recording was of him admitting to carrying out orders that involved liquadating Jews- http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz?qsrc=3044
    The Nuremburg trials were stopped as the Western allies were building Germany up to support them in the cold war which was starting around that time.

    Well I dont doubt he could have been involved but I am dubious about the quote from your ask.com link ( which is the same as the wikipedia article). Why?

    Because of the ellipsis

    executing the most difficult order of my life in Russia, (...) liquidation of the Jews

    I suppose we could look at the source, but that the is worst positioned ellipsis I have ever seen, it could be he said but definitely not the


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Well I dont doubt he could have been involved but I am dubious about the quote from your ask.com link ( which is the same as the wikipedia article). Why?

    Because of the ellipsis

    executing the most difficult order of my life in Russia, (...) liquidation of the Jews

    I suppose we could look at the source, but that the is worst positioned ellipsis I have ever seen, it could be he said but definitely not the

    http://onvictoryswings.blogspot.com/
    Only a blog but it makes the same, obvious conclusion. You are correct though, the (...) is ridiculous and appears in the same manner in many online sources.
    He was released in 1947 without facing charges for this though although the reasons for this release could also be debated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Choltitz is credited with saving Paris. This is mainly based on his own reflections in post-war memoirs. I would be cynical on his motives however. The facts show he was a loyal and clever Officer for most of World war 2. At the end of the war following the Allied invasions he 'saved' Paris (according to himself firstly). Whilst of course retreating Germans had caused alot of harm in other areas (particularly eastern front) they did not always do this in Western & Mediteranean europe cities.

    In my opinion Chorlitz after many years participation in Nazi policy talked himself up to improve his personal lot.

    That would be more or less my take on it too.

    Has anyone explained how - logistically - he was supposed to have been in a position to level the city in the first place ? The idea of taking credit for not doing something you would not have been capable of doing anyway seems odd. My understanding is at that stage what was left in Paris were handfuls of field guns, handfuls of tanks, no air force, disarray, panic, poor communications etc etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 821 ✭✭✭FiSe


    Goering himself said in Breslau /?/ during his speech in March /? - would have to look it up/ *) something along the lines that: fuhrer himself told me that new massive offensive will soon begin on the eastern front. This offensive will destroy Asian hordes and so on the usual...

    Destruction of Paris was addressed in similar manner, I believe.

    Nevertheless, the tanks were not allowed to use their man gun within the city borders and were using their machineguns only.

    *) it was in April 1945 in Gorlitz/Zgorzelec


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    " Allied strategic bombing " - More like indiscriminate mass bombing of German civilians.

    Allied strategic bombing was indeed carried out by tha American air force. The RAF on the other hand saw targeting areas of general population as valid as the people there were most likely working in war industries. They obviously chose to ignore children,etc in the same areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭donaghs


    " Allied strategic bombing " - More like indiscriminate mass bombing of German civilians.

    Thanks jonniebgood1, I thought it was obvious, and no need to elaborate. I was referring to instances of "strategic bombing" rather than "terror bombing". In the sense of specifically going after the German armaments and related industries. Not specifically targeting civilians. Civilians did die in these raids due to the mistakes and imprecise nature of aerial bombing. But its still different than the bombing raids which deliberately targeted civilians and residential areas. I thought this was obvious in the context of Albert Speer's efforts to increase armaments production in the face of Allied strategic bombing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    donaghs wrote: »
    von Cholititz is given credit for disobeying Hitler's orders to destroy Paris and fight a last ditch urban warfare campaign there, in 1944.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz

    Some people have questioned his post-war accounts of just how much a "good guy" he was, but it does seem that he did make efforts to save the city, and to a slightly lesser extent people's lives. And that a different commander could have had a more drastic effect on the place - e.g. Warsaw in 1944.

    There was some light bombing of Paris in 1940, but the city was left undefended due to the speed of the German advance, and the French government fleeing to Bordeaux. And the city also escaped an major Allied bombing during the war, unlike places of military or transportation significance - e.g. Le Harve, Caen, St. Nazaire, etc.

    the Von Cholitz chapter is covered well in the book D-Day: The Battle for Normandy by Antony Beevor.
    http://www.antonybeevor.com/D-Day/index.htm


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Morlar wrote: »
    The story of the guy who saved paris rings a bell, though my memory of it (without checking) was something along the lines of a commander with 3 or 4 field guns and a handful of tanks being mysteriously asked to 'level the city'.

    Something along those lines - ie it would not have been possible for him to have levelled it in any event had he been given such an order.
    Fire is much better and cheaper at levelling cities than artillery.
    Aside from Warsaw which had a citywide Polish uprising which makes it a special case.
    The Germans fought a lot harder on the Eastern Front, whereas for much of 1944, the west was a war of manoeuvre
    First of all without 24x7 blanket bombing from a then pretty much non exsistent Luftwaffe
    The Luftwaffe kept flying to the end of the war, albeit primarily in the air defence and tactical roles.
    Well I dont doubt he could have been involved but I am dubious about the quote from your ask.com link ( which is the same as the wikipedia article). Why?
    Wikipedia is available to freely copy under the GNU licence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Victor wrote: »
    Fire is much better and cheaper at levelling cities than artillery.

    Aside from Dresden which was a non military city blanket bombed from the air with incendiary bombs (by the allies) off hand I can't think of a european city levelled by fire (obviously Warsaw was levelled and Rotterdam very heavily damaged).

    I still say that this man who took credit for not levelling Paris could not have done so in any event. Nothing I have read so far would shed any doubt on that. The difference between this man and the destroyers of dresden are an air force not elsewhere engaed and with limitless supplies of incendiaries with which to start city wide fires and prevent civilian fire fighting efforts. Caen was of course bombed heavily by the allies etc but to the best of my knowledge no luftwaffe bomb ever fell on Paris. If you believe the credit for this belongs to this chap then fire away.
    Victor wrote: »
    The Germans fought a lot harder on the Eastern Front, whereas for much of 1944, the west was a war of manoeuvre

    I think how they fought was largely dictated by who they were fighting and the price they were made to pay to achieve their goals. I'd agree the fighting in the east (as opposed to the fall of France) was a lot more costly and vicious. Without checking I believe they paid a higher price in terms of men in order to take Poland than they did for Belgium, Holland and France combined.
    Victor wrote: »
    The Luftwaffe kept flying to the end of the war, albeit primarily in the air defence and tactical roles.

    So do I really need to clarify for any pedants that I meant in an offensive capacity ? To the extent of being able to blanket bomb cities round the clock indefinitely ? Evem before d-day the allies had air supremacy over france. There was effectively no air resistance from the Luftwaffe so their offensive capacity in North France was extremely poor - which is the point I was making. Also luftwaffe strength is one thing . . . the more important point would have been how many Luftwaffe bombers were at the disposal of this fictional 'leveller of paris' ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    Aside from Dresden which was a non military city blanket bombed from the air with incendiary bombs (by the allies) off hand I can't think of a european city levelled by fire (obviously Warsaw was levelled and Rotterdam very heavily damaged).

    Hamburg, Lubeck, Pforzheim -A thread on this may be interesting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Hamburg, Lubeck, Pforzheim -A thread on this may be interesting.

    All heavily damaged by allied incendiary bombing. The point remains - European civilian cities 'levelled' by the germans are thin on the ground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Hamburg, Lubeck, Pforzheim -A thread on this may be interesting.

    These were given simply as examples of cities levelled by fire in response to one of your points. Hamburg in particular had a large no. of casualties.
    The point remains - European civilian cities 'levelled' by the germans are thin on the ground.
    Why would you expect the Nazi's to have flattened cities that they wished to use as administrative centres? This would have been illogical for them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    I never said that I did expect ;
    Why would you expect the Nazi's to have flattened cities that they wished to use as administrative centres? This would have been illogical for them.

    What I said was ;
    The point remains - European civilian cities 'levelled' by the germans are thin on the ground.

    Can you name any european cities levelled by the Germans during their retreat ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    I never said that I did expect ;

    What I said was ;

    Can you name any european cities levelled by the Germans during their retreat ?

    Refer to my last post- they did not do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Refer to my last post- they did not do it.

    Which is kind of the point I am making. I find it odd to give credibility to this man taking credit for something he did not do - which also the german armed forces not only didn't do but never did. To me it reeks of propaganda and it's convenient that it fits the french mindset and image of themselves during wartime - but the reality does not seem to match. The germans in Paris were not facing daily uprising or even friction. Compared to Warsaw (either the ghetto rising or city rising) the so-called Paris uprising was nothing of the sort. The french particularly in Paris lived comfortably with the germans for the duration of the war. They were not on the verge of destruction by a vengeful wehrmacht for the extremely late in the day paris rising.

    Not to be flippant but I could also take credit for not destroying Paris and there are similarities here ;

    Like him I don't have access to a working (offensive capable) air force with endless supplies of incendiaries.
    I also don't have access to vast panzer & artillery resources with endless supply chains and the space and time to accomplish this task also the air superiority required for success. I also have no track record of levelling cities in retreat etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Morlar wrote: »
    Aside from Dresden which was a non military city blanket bombed from the air with incendiary bombs (by the allies) off hand I can't think of a european city levelled by fire (obviously Warsaw was levelled and Rotterdam very heavily damaged).
    Thats not to say it couldn't be done. While the construction of most modern European cities would prevent substantial fire spreading, it is quite possible to do severe damage with a military force that is so inclined.

    While things had moved on from London in 1666, Cork demonstrates what can be done.

    Now sure, they wouldn't have been able to burn everything, but they could burn an awful lot.


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