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Will Ireland ever have a top level player in tennis?

2

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Meant to ask, do tennis clubs in Ireland still have ludicrous rules that you must wear white when playing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭Remind me


    glasso wrote: »
    you can run around a track anywhere and measure your time

    tennis development is far more complex and depends a lot on getting a sufficient level of competition and learning from your matches.

    This needs to start at an early age (11 max these days I would say)

    That's why those tennis academies are successful - they provide an intensive training environment with lots of practice matches.

    I know that the guy Simon Carr went off to play on the futures circuit at maybe age 16 - I'm not sure where he is based out of.

    Doesn't seem to have made a lot of progress over the last couple of years.

    https://www.itftennis.com/procircuit/players/player/profile.aspx?playerid=100224982

    The numbers playing at a young age must be tiny if there is no competition amongst kids?

    Ireland, presumably faces the same issues as many countries even ones that produce top quality players, that Greek lad in Oz last week, was he shipped off to the states or Spain to one of academies do you know?

    The more you look into it the numbers at the top of the sport really are small.


  • Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭shutup


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Meant to ask, do tennis clubs in Ireland still have ludicrous rules that you must wear white when playing?

    In Dublin I think Donnybrook does. Fitzwilliam, Malahide, Elm Park, Templeouge certainly do. Can’t remember any more off the top of my head.
    It is ridiculous alright but not as ridged as you might think. The rule is predominately white tops but tracksuit tops can be colored (I think). And most of the time it’s not enforced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭shutup


    Remind me wrote: »
    The numbers playing at a young age must be tiny if there is no competition amongst kids?

    Ireland, presumably faces the same issues as many countries even ones that produce top quality players, that Greek lad in Oz last week, was he shipped off to the states or Spain to one of academies do you know?

    The more you look into it the numbers at the top of the sport really are small.

    There is loads of competition. Tournaments all the time. There are what are called “Opens” throughout the year but especially in summer. You collect points to qualify for what is effectively the All ireland Tennis championship in fitzwilliam (know as Fitz), Inter Club leagues, a provincial tournament, the match play competition, primary and secondary schools cup and of course each club has its own in house competitions or “ladders”.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    glasso wrote: »
    barring a complete freak being born into a wealthy family who love tennis and put a racket in his/her hand at 2 and who can support him/her, being sent abroad at an early age to practice 6 hours a day to Spain/US and not getting involved in other sports like rugby etc can't see it happening.

    Nail on the head, except for the "complete freak" bit! No player will ever make it playing from Ireland. The competition isn't there, the coaching isn't there and the support isn't there. Tennis Ireland is run by well-meaning amateurs (don't ask for my opinion of Munster Branch, who are not even well-meaning!), always short of cash. Bear in mind that the LTA has Wimbledon, a cash cow providing millions (£20m+) every year, and they have produced no world-class player, unless you count AM, who more-or-less did it on his own.

    Ireland's second city has no indoor courts/training facilities ("bubble") and I see the elite under-age players training in the pissing rain and howling wind on flooded courts from Oct-Mar. Complete waste of time! As Glasso says, the only hope is wealthy parents of a determined child, who is willing to leave home at 12 to go to an academy and train/play with the best young players in Europe.

    We certainly will never have a production line of world-class players but it is entirely possible that we could have 1 some day. It won't be any thanks to TI though, that's for sure!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭Stevecw


    Our best hope would be somebody like Konta, who grew up in Australia and had everything in place to be a top player before moving to England. Now she is their No 1 & best Fed Cup player etc.
    We need to get lucky like that with somebody who moves here, otherwise it's very hard to see it happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe conor niland hails from the wealthy or elitist background that has been referenced in some posts here. I doubt he had a great support network behind him for most of his formative years - outside of his tennis mad family, I mean - but he still made a good fist of breaking the atp top 100 and would have done better but for injury I believe. At one stage I think Murray was the only uk player ranked higher. While hugely difficult for all the reasons outlined above, surely it’s not impossible to conceive of a talent like nilands and to be given a reasonable chance of fulfilling his/ her potential?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    Stevecw wrote: »
    Our best hope would be somebody like Konta, who grew up in Australia and had everything in place to be a top player before moving to England. Now she is their No 1 & best Fed Cup player etc.
    We need to get lucky like that with somebody who moves here, otherwise it's very hard to see it happen.

    A Mrs. Merton moment there: "So, Johanna Konta: what first attracted you to the multi-millionaire LTA"??

    From Wikipedia: She grew up in Australia but when she was 14, she attended the Sanchez Casal academy in Barcelona for 15 months, during which time her parents settled in Eastbourne, East Sussex, England. Konta became a British citizen in May 2012 and concurrently switched her sporting allegiance from Australia to Britain.

    I'm not sure we've got the cash to buy a mercenary athlete/sportsperson willing to put on the green jersey!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,995 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    byronbay2 wrote: »
    A Mrs. Merton moment there: "So, Johanna Konta: what first attracted you to the multi-millionaire LTA"??

    From Wikipedia: She grew up in Australia but when she was 14, she attended the Sanchez Casal academy in Barcelona for 15 months, during which time her parents settled in Eastbourne, East Sussex, England. Konta became a British citizen in May 2012 and concurrently switched her sporting allegiance from Australia to Britain.

    I'm not sure we've got the cash to buy a mercenary athlete/sportsperson willing to put on the green jersey!

    And for most of the Irish sporting public, the achievements of a mercenary athlete performing under an Irish banner and being successful, would mean nothing


  • Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭CosmicFool


    It's basically down to the GAA. It's all about the GAA in Ireland.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 87 ✭✭Scottish Jodi


    What about Sam Barry or James McGee?

    I do however believe that LTA need to start looking into Wales and Ireland for top players because I'm fairly certain that there are decent prospects there.

    England have Kyle Edmund, Jack Draper, Jay Clarke that are potential stars of the future. Scotland have Cameron Norrie who is making progress up the rankings.

    Kyle is from Jamaica and Cam is from New Zealand so they have changed residency.

    I really hope that one day, all of UK is represented by players in the top 50.


  • Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭shutup


    What about Sam Barry or James McGee?

    I do however believe that LTA need to start looking into Wales and Ireland for top players because I'm fairly certain that there are decent prospects there.

    England have Kyle Edmund, Jack Draper, Jay Clarke that are potential stars of the future. Scotland have Cameron Norrie who is making progress up the rankings.

    Kyle is from Jamaica and Cam is from New Zealand so they have changed residency.

    I really hope that one day, all of UK is represented by players in the top 50.

    You do realise we are not in the UK and the LTA have nothing to do with Tennis on this island?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Remind me wrote: »
    The numbers playing at a young age must be tiny if there is no competition amongst kids?

    Ireland, presumably faces the same issues as many countries even ones that produce top quality players, that Greek lad in Oz last week, was he shipped off to the states or Spain to one of academies do you know?

    The more you look into it the numbers at the top of the sport really are small.

    Tsipsitas went off to a tennis academy in France - a bit older than normal but he also was the son of a full-time tennis coach.

    The climate aspect is a big one - as others have said there are very few indoor courts in Ireland.
    His father is Greek and his mother is Russian. Both of his parents are experienced tennis players, and his mother in particular was a world No. 1 junior who had a career-high professional ranking inside the top 200.[4] His parents had been working as tennis instructors at the Astir Palace resort hotel in Vouliagmeni at the time of his birth.

    His father has always served as his primary coach, and he formally studied tennis coaching at the University of Athens to help train his children


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe conor niland hails from the wealthy or elitist background that has been referenced in some posts here. I doubt he had a great support network behind him for most of his formative years - outside of his tennis mad family, I mean - but he still made a good fist of breaking the atp top 100 and would have done better but for injury I believe. At one stage I think Murray was the only uk player ranked higher. While hugely difficult for all the reasons outlined above, surely it’s not impossible to conceive of a talent like nilands and to be given a reasonable chance of fulfilling his/ her potential?

    all his family were heavily involved in Tennis afaik. I don't know the exact details but his sister was also a player.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conor_Niland

    mentions that he went to public school in Somerset for 3 years where fees are £13k a term now - they certainly weren't paupers!

    now sure how many families could afford £39k sterling a year for 1 child- on the upper end of things I would hazard a guess


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Meant to ask, do tennis clubs in Ireland still have ludicrous rules that you must wear white when playing?

    Some clubs do but getting less and less.

    I don't think we can produce a top class player in this country, we can maybe give them the basics but for that person to really become a top class player they would need to move to the US or Spain and dedicate themselves to the sport.

    To become a top player you need access to top class facilities, not just court time but other facilities such as gyms and access to top class competition and coaching, to improve and test yourself week in and week out, this is something we don't have. Only ourselves and the UK play on the artificial grass so when you go out on play on real Grass, Clay or Hard court you have no experience of it. I know some clubs are now replacing the artificial Grass courts with artificial clay.

    Tennis is seen as a summer sport and not an all year round sport, the only time you see people interested in it is at Wimbledon. It's also a sport you need to give a lot of dedication too and it can be lonely, with football and other sports you can play on the road with other kids, you cant do that with tennis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    And for most of the Irish sporting public, the achievements of a mercenary athlete performing under an Irish banner and being successful, would mean nothing

    I believe soccer and rugby history has indicated to us that this is not the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Irish tennis players would need to start juicing big time if they want to compete at any level.

    And that would be just to make the top 500......


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Johnmb


    glasso wrote: »
    you said that the LTA were as bad as TI tho.
    They were, especially with regards to their footprint in Scotland. They focused mainly on England, and while they had a lot more resources than TI there, they were just as wasteful with them. While things have improved since then, they are still major underachievers considering their resources.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe conor niland hails from the wealthy or elitist background that has been referenced in some posts here. I doubt he had a great support network behind him for most of his formative years - outside of his tennis mad family, I mean - but he still made a good fist of breaking the atp top 100 and would have done better but for injury I believe. At one stage I think Murray was the only uk player ranked higher. While hugely difficult for all the reasons outlined above, surely it’s not impossible to conceive of a talent like nilands and to be given a reasonable chance of fulfilling his/ her potential?
    glasso wrote: »
    all his family were heavily involved in Tennis afaik. I don't know the exact details but his sister was also a player.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conor_Niland

    mentions that he went to public school in Somerset for 3 years where fees are £13k a term now - they certainly weren't paupers!

    now sure how many families could afford £39k sterling a year for 1 child- on the upper end of things I would hazard a guess

    Conor's dad, Ray Niland, was a well-known doctor in Limerick. They built a tennis court in the back garden of their home for the children to practice. Tennis was their game and they invested a lot of time and money in getting the best coaching/facilities/equipment for their children. Unfortunately, even with that level of commitment from parents and children, it was still not possible for them to make it from Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    glasso wrote: »
    all his family were heavily involved in Tennis afaik. I don't know the exact details but his sister was also a player.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conor_Niland

    mentions that he went to public school in Somerset for 3 years where fees are £13k a term now - they certainly weren't paupers!

    now sure how many families could afford £39k sterling a year for 1 child- on the upper end of things I would hazard a guess

    Considering he was just a kid basically when he attended uk public school I have a mighty hard time believing they were shelling out 39k A TERM. This was 25-30 years ago I’m guessing. I do know he attended a comprehensive for his secondary schooling in Limerick. Guess they’d spunked all the money away on infant education in england?!

    I actually do remember Gina playing around the Munster circuit as a junior where I played some very bad tennis and mostly unsuccessfully chased girls. Her problem was she went out on the circuit basically on her own, traveling the world with no support or friends and back in 80s/90s, that was no easy thing. When conor followed I know they tried to fix this by having someone travel with him as much as possible but, as someone mentioned above, the loneliness of life as a tennis pro is always an issue. There isn’t the social aspect you get with other sports.

    As for the socio economic issue, Ray niland was a consultant I believe, quite a successful one, so you could definitely say they are a well off family but not a privileged one. What it came down to was making sacrifices in order to give their siblings the best chance they could. In the lack of a wider support network, they did what they had to do.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Considering he was just a kid basically when he attended uk public school I have a mighty hard time believing they were shelling out 39k A TERM. This was 25-30 years ago I’m guessing. I do know he attended a comprehensive for his secondary schooling in Limerick. Guess they’d spunked all the money away on infant education in england?!

    I actually do remember Gina playing around the Munster circuit as a junior where I played some very bad tennis and mostly unsuccessfully chased girls. Her problem was she went out on the circuit basically on her own, traveling the world with no support or friends and back in 80s/90s, that was no easy thing. When conor followed I know they tried to fix this by having someone travel with him as much as possible but, as someone mentioned above, the loneliness of life as a tennis pro is always an issue. There isn’t the social aspect you get with other sports.

    As for the socio economic issue, Ray niland was a consultant I believe, quite a successful one, so you could definitely say they are a well off family but not a privileged one. What it came down to was making sacrifices in order to give their siblings the best chance they could. In the lack of a wider support network, they did what they had to do.

    I said 13k a term - 39k is today's rate per year. that's sterling also
    where did you get 39k a term - that was in your own head.
    it's all relative. it wouldn't have been that rate years ago but it would have been the equivalent in the day (20k - who knows and sterling was stronger then also) making it beyond most people.

    consultants on the old consultant deal before they changed it for new entrants are amongst the highest earners in terms of salary in Ireland.

    a consultant on the old system could easily be making 300k or more and that's before any private practice.

    that's privileged in terms of Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭shutup


    Ok let’s not dwell off topic too much or make it too personal about Conor. But to clear up some facts.
    He went to Millfield school which at the time of writing costs £8,530 for day student or Boarding £12,870 per SCHOOL YEAR. So the 13k per term and 39k per term is inaccurate. no big deal let’s move on.

    * I’m aware I said let’s not dwell off topic but the sporting achievements of this school are incredible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    You’re right it’s no big deal in the wider scheme of things and not worth getting bogged down in. I misquoted the 13k figure earlier, a typo on my part, so apologies for that. I’m not personally aware of what ray nilands employment details were so no further discussion is warranted. They certainly had advantages a lot of families wouldn’t have but they worked very hard and made sacrifices and did the best they could. I’ll lesve it at that.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    shutup wrote: »
    Ok let’s not dwell off topic too much or make it too personal about Conor. But to clear up some facts.
    He went to Millfield school which at the time of writing costs £8,530 for day student or Boarding £12,870 per SCHOOL YEAR. So the 13k per term and 39k per term is inaccurate. no big deal let’s move on.

    * I’m aware I said let’s not dwell off topic but the sporting achievements of this school are incredible.


    it's £12,870 PER TERM

    https://millfieldschool.com/admissions/fees

    you might notice that it says "Termly Fees" at the top of the page

    there are 3 terms per year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    shutup wrote:
    Ok let’s not dwell off topic too much or make it too personal about Conor. But to clear up some facts. He went to Millfield school which at the time of writing costs £8,530 for day student or Boarding £12,870 per SCHOOL YEAR. So the 13k per term and 39k per term is inaccurate. no big deal let’s move on.


    Denmark, Luxembourg, Greece, Portugal or the Netherlands have, to my knowledge, never produced players that managed to break into the world's best one hundred despite having much greater resources and better facilities available for developing players.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    chicorytip wrote: »
    Denmark, Luxembourg, Greece, Portugal or the Netherlands have, to my knowledge, never produced players that managed to break into the world's best one hundred despite having much greater resources and better facilities available for developing players.

    that's totally incorrect on all counts in terms of the countries that you have mentioned even tiny Luxembourg.


  • Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭shutup


    Being wealthy certainly helps. You have to take a chance that you might not earn any money but more likely will have lost a massive amount of money by the time you retire.
    So you tend to get a lot of people from poor backgrounds particularly in Eastern Europe/Russia with nothing to lose who put all their eggs in that basket and go for it.
    Or
    Wealthy people who can afford not to have to actually make money throughout their twenty’s. We saw that with lots of the recent Irish pros.
    The rags to riches stories from Russia etc are great but imagine how many don’t make the grade and end up with no career after all that wasted money.
    The Irish tend to get education while trying to train and play the low level challengers tournaments. I’ve always said if you go to college you have accepted you are not going to make it and should quit then. There are a very small amount of exceptions but in general top players never had a plan B.
    Since all of our players come from an educated middle class background it is hard for parents to support taking such a risk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    glasso wrote: »
    that's totally incorrect on all counts in terms of the countries that you have mentioned even tiny Luxembourg.

    Who's that lad that won SW19 in 1996.......;)


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    wealthy is certainly the only chance in terms of the way things are in Ireland

    in other countries you see people coming from backgrounds where the parents are tennis coaches who may not be wealthy but can get their children free access to top facilities and coaching and if they show promise go from there.

    there are a lot of examples of this if you look into the background of players.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭shutup


    glasso wrote: »
    it's £12,870 PER TERM

    https://millfieldschool.com/admissions/fees

    you might notice that it says "Termly Fees" at the top of the page

    there are 3 terms per year.

    You’re dead right. Further investigation tells me its 38,600 per year. Apologies


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