Heavyweight Boxing

Maravilla33 · 17-08-2017 11:27am

He hasn't made his feelings crystal clear on the McGregor fight but not sure Walshy views Conor as a 60/40 fav...

selectamatic · 17-08-2017 2:13pm

akelly02 wrote: »

Wilder is the hardest hitting heavyweight in the world I don't think many disagree. That's not to say wlad hasn't got power

Is he though?

He's got big power for sure and he throws in such a manner so as to maximise it but honestly what evidence is there that he hits harder than AJ?

while I can't say categorically who has more power, I will say that Joshua has been able to utilise his to better effect in the majority of his fights.

akelly02 · 17-08-2017 7:31pm

selectamatic wrote: »

Is he though?

He's got big power for sure and he throws in such a manner so as to maximise it but honestly what evidence is there that he hits harder than AJ?

while I can't say categorically who has more power, I will say that Joshua has been able to utilise his to better effect in the majority of his fights.

He is in my opinion , purely from watching heavyweights and how they throw, wilder has that 1 punch ko power which is scary

megadodge · 17-08-2017 10:55pm

I'm afraid Walshy, we're back to that old chestnut again - your love of power punchers blinding you to their other flaws.

You claim above "When I look at both and analyse their strengths and weaknesses I see Wilder getting the job done". I honestly can't remember you ever analysing Wilder's many, many weaknesses.

I would agree that Wilder probably has the harder punching power of the two and I suspect his stamina is slightly better. And that's it!

There's not much use having tremendous power if you don't have the skill and composure to land with it. And they are two things Wilder lacks in quite spectacular fashion. Watching him wildly swinging for the fences with that panicky look on his face makes for very awkward viewing for me. It makes me wonder what anybody watching who doesn't know boxing that well thinks, when somebody that obviously lacking in the basics can claim to be the best boxer in the world.

I've absolutely no idea how you can claim him to be a fast starter. Unless the last time you saw him was the Audley Harrison's 'fight'. Quite easy to steam into Audley. The moment the competition was upped even slightly (and let's be honest it hasn't been great) he got cautious as f*ck. Moves away, flicks out a jab and every now and then throws a wild 'keep away from me' swing.

He quite simply doesn't have the fundamentals to keep AJ off him. And with AJ being so solid fundamentally himself, along with being a big puncher who is equal in height and 'bigger' Wilder's nervousness and lack of composure will be even more evident. I would be surprised to see him last past 5 rounds. Probably less.

And Fury's sheer size, vastly superior jab and all-round boxing IQ would confuse the hell out of his already one-dimensional way of fighting and would see him easily outboxed before being awkwardly bludgeoned in around 8-9 rounds. I honestly reckon he would not land a single significant punch on a fit, ambitious Fury (something we may never see again I admit).

Wilder is a bully. Picking on smaller, weaker opponents his whole career. Facing a man 3 inches taller than him who can actually box, would see him mentally collapse long before the finish.

walshb · 17-08-2017 11:03pm

You are completely overanalysing what I said..

Both are power punchers and for me both can end this early..it is not going past 3...

An AJ KO win would not be a surprise..

I simply lean with Wilder finding AJs chin earlier...

Nothing at all to do with me overlooking flaws..

Both KO Fury, and early......

Fury has not the chin or power or defense to prevent either man finding his chin..

megadodge · 17-08-2017 11:23pm

walshb wrote: »

You are completely overanalysing what I said..

Both are power punchers and for me both can end this early..it is not going past 3...

An AJ KO win would not be a surprise..

I simply lean with Wilder finding AJs chin earlier...

Nothing at all to do with me overlooking flaws..

Both KO Fury, and early......

Fury has not the chin or power or defense to prevent either man finding his chin..

You're ignoring what I said - Wilder lacks the skill and composure to land big punches on AJ or Fury. He's not good enough to land on either.

Don't forget Klitchko had problems landing on AJ and the enormous disparity in skill between VK and Wilder certainly doesn't have to be mentioned. Before the knockdowns AJ was ahead on points. When hurt, admittedly Vlad didn't go flat out for the kill, but when he did let his punches go, a still not 100% Joshua did a tremendous job on making him miss. That's something that has gone almost completely unnoticed IMO. Joshua is very solid defensively.

Wilder would have even less chance landing on Fury. He simply would have no way around that jab. And he'd be scared sh*tless of a way bigger man who isn't remotely afraid of him.

Wilder would have a better chance of landing than the soon-to-be-very-rich chancer taking on Mayweather, but that's not exactly saying much is it?

selectamatic · 18-08-2017 1:39am

@mega
Not to drag this into the gutter like the other threads that actually relate to mayweather and McGregor, but there's only one chancer taking part in that "fight" on August 26th and it's the self titled GOAT who thought fighting Andre berto was an acceptable fight to take to get to 49-0 and now thinks fighting a man with zero pro boxing experience is an acceptable way to get to the coveted 50-0.

Money is the man making a mockery of the sport. Kind of ironic really because actual money has alway been a blight on boxing.

Anyways moving on I'd 100% disagree about wilder not being able to land on fury. Many men even less technically capable than deontay have landed big shots on Tyson and none of them were 6ft 7" with a dam long reach either. So I think Walsh makes a valid point.

However I do belive Aj will dismantle wilder when they meet so we're singing from the same hym sheet there.

walshb · 18-08-2017 7:17am

megadodge wrote: »

You're ignoring what I said - Wilder lacks the skill and composure to land big punches on AJ or Fury. He's not good enough to land on either.

I am not ignoring. I simply disagree. I believe Wilder can land clean on both to get the KO. I am aware of the flaws of all three. Flaws aside I still think Wilder connects.

You are either underestimating Wilder's ability at 6 feet 7 to throw and land clean on AJ, or over rating AJ as regards his ability to not get hit. AJ is far from Wlad as regards defense and awkwardness. He's right in front, upright, no head movement. So, surely it wouldn't be all that surprising to think Wilder could connect clean?

Your verdict on the fight?

In AJs case I make Wilder a 55/45 favourite.

Fury? Well, seeing as he is practically a non fighter now...

If he was fighting I'd make Wilder a warm favorite. He would land and he would KO Fury.

walshb · 18-08-2017 7:27am

selectamatic wrote: »

However I do belive Aj will dismantle wilder when they meet so we're singing from the same hym sheet there.

Do you think Wilder will find AJs chin clean? If so I take it that you believe he survives and breaks Wilder down?

There is a real ? on AJs chin for me now. Pre Wlad the jury was out..

This ? along with Wilder's power sees me siding with Wilder.

Morrison J · 18-08-2017 8:59am

Both have power and both have questionable chins. I don't see how you can use either of those variables as a way of choosing one from the other.

It's how you see Wilder as the more likely to land that I can't grasp at all. AJ is the far more accomplished boxer.

You seem to be grasping at straws making up false narratives like Wilder being the faster starter to back up your prediction. Can't see the logic in it whatsoever.

walshb · 18-08-2017 9:19am

Morrison J wrote: »

Both have power and both have questionable chins. I don't see how you can use either of those variables as a way of choosing one from the other..

What?

Then I'll just sit on the fence and say it's 50:50 as opposed to 55:45..

AJ is more composed. I agree. My view that Wilder lands first is based off Wilder being aggressive earlier on. Throwing with venom earlier. Before AJ gets settled he is out.

I just think he gets tagged early, before he is allowed to go to work and show his composure and talent..

The reactions here you would swear I made outrageous claims about either man..

Big 6 feet 7 inch power puncher with a heap of KOs is getting picked to KO a big HW who can be hit, is stiff, is not hard to find, and whose chin has a ? on it..

What is so off here to illicit such disbelief, bearing in mind that I have acknowledged AJs power and almost equal chance to take Wilder out.

walshb · 18-08-2017 9:34am

Btw,

What's your call on the fight? You have questioned my call and reasoning..

For me it does not last long. Maybe I missed your call?

I go KO Wilder rd 2

Morrison J · 18-08-2017 9:41am

walshb wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

Both have power and both have questionable chins. I don't see how you can use either of those variables as a way of choosing one from the other..

What?

Then I'll just sit on the fence and say it's 50:50 as opposed to 55:45..

AJ is more composed. I agree. My view that Wilder lands first is based off Wilder being aggressive earlier on. Throwing with venom earlier. Before AJ gets settled he is out.

I just think he gets tagged early, before he is allowed to go to work and show his composure and talent..

The reactions here you would swear I made outrageous claims about either man..

Big 6 feet 7 inch power puncher with a heap of KOs is getting picked to KO a big HW who can be hit, is stiff, is not hard to find, and whose chin has a ? on it..

What is so off here to illicit such disbelief, bearing in mind that I have acknowledged AJs power and almost equal chance to take Wilder out.

You only seem to base predictions on power and quality of chin. I'm getting that impression anyway.

It's not an outrageous claim to think Wilder can knock AJ out, of course he can. He can knock anyone out. It's favouring the Wilder KO with little to back it up bar some thinking that he'll come out quicker that I can't get my head around.

When was the last time he came out against a half decent opponent and went for it from the bell?

You're ignoring that AJ has the better hand speed, better jab to set the big shot up, etc etc and just saying you think Wilder will win because he's going to start really quick. Such little logic to that argument when previous evidence shows AJ to be just as quick a starter.

Morrison J · 18-08-2017 9:45am

walshb wrote: »

Btw,

What's your call on the fight? You have questioned my call and reasoning..

For me it does not last long. Maybe I missed your call?

I go KO Wilder rd 2

Probably AJ in round 4/5. I would expect both to be extremely tentative early and respect each others power. AJ winning rounds behind his jab looking to set up his big overhand right and hurt Wilder. I'd give it four or five rounds before he finds a home for it.

walshb · 18-08-2017 9:48am

Starting quicker or whatever.

Bell goes and both come out..

Wilder throws bombs and connects and game over..

AJ comes out and throws bombs and connects and it's over...

I suppose it is almost 50:50 here

I reckon we don't get to see much composure and skills and breaking down from either man. It's that kind of fight..

I don't see this as illogical. Because it's a fight I believe lasts at most 3 rds, hence I don't need to really look too deep as regards composure, skills etc..

Of course, I could be wrong and we see a longer fight with a lot more involved...

Your verdict and manner of victory?

walshb · 18-08-2017 9:49am

Morrison J wrote: »

Probably AJ in round 4/5. I would expect both to be extremely tentative early and respect each others power. AJ winning rounds behind his jab looking to set up his big overhand right and hurt Wilder. I'd give it four or five rounds before he finds a home for it.

Just saw this, and no issue with it..just not how I'd call it.

Great match.

Be fun to find out whose take on it wins out..

Morrison J · 18-08-2017 10:46am

walshb wrote: »

Starting quicker or whatever.

Bell goes and both come out..

Wilder throws bombs and connects and game over..

AJ comes out and throws bombs and connects and it's over...

I suppose it is almost 50:50 here

I reckon we don't get to see much composure and skills and breaking down from either man. It's that kind of fight..

I don't see this as illogical. Because it's a fight I believe lasts at most 3 rds, hence I don't need to really look too deep as regards composure, skills etc..

Of course, I could be wrong and we see a longer fight with a lot more involved...

Your verdict and manner of victory?

If you were to say it's a pure shootout whoever lands first 50/50 I'd have no problem to be fair. It could play out that way. I just don't see any reasonable argument for giving Wilder that slight edge personally.

selectamatic · 18-08-2017 1:25pm

walshb wrote: »

Do you think Wilder will find AJs chin clean? If so I take it that you believe he survives and breaks Wilder down?

There is a real ? on AJs chin for me now. Pre Wlad the jury was out..

This ? along with Wilder's power sees me siding with Wilder.

Tbh I kinda don't. If wilder comes in swinging whats to stop him getting countered and countered hard. AJ is plenty good enough to expose reckless swinging.

On the chin aspect, if Joshua were to take an absolute bomb clean on the temple or chin then yes I'd be thinking wilder will finish him but I simply see AJ landing cleanly on wilder easier than vice versa.

I'm also firmly of the opinion that Joshua's chin will stand up to more than Wilder's.

squinn2912 · 18-08-2017 11:34pm

selectamatic wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

Do you think Wilder will find AJs chin clean? If so I take it that you believe he survives and breaks Wilder down?

There is a real ? on AJs chin for me now. Pre Wlad the jury was out..

This ? along with Wilder's power sees me siding with Wilder.

Tbh I kinda don't. If wilder comes in swinging whats to stop him getting countered and countered hard. AJ is plenty good enough to expose reckless swinging.

On the chin aspect, if Joshua were to take an absolute bomb clean on the temple or chin then yes I'd be thinking wilder will finish him but I simply see AJ landing cleanly on wilder easier than vice versa.

I'm also firmly of the opinion that Joshua's chin will stand up to more than Wilder's.

Wilder's chin is completely untested so we can't say much about it. AJ has taking one overhyped shot from Whyte and Wlad hit him cleanly several times which is more of an indicator of durability.
I think Wilder's plan would be to keep it slow and cumbersome in the first couple of rounds and then try to go for a big shot, similar enough to how he fought Washington or Spilka (spelling a bit off there I think) but I don't see AJ allowing that to happen and I think he takes him out easily by round 3. I wouldn't be surprised if earlier.
Wilder's footwork is pitiful and his defense at any kind of tempo is all over the place. He has got serious power going for him but at the level of the giant heavyweight they all have power.
AJ KO with minimal fuss.

squinn2912 · 19-08-2017 9:27am

Morrison J wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

Btw,

What's your call on the fight? You have questioned my call and reasoning..

For me it does not last long. Maybe I missed your call?

I go KO Wilder rd 2

Probably AJ in round 4/5. I would expect both to be extremely tentative early and respect each others power. AJ winning rounds behind his jab looking to set up his big overhand right and hurt Wilder. I'd give it four or five rounds before he finds a home for it.

I think that's a good take on how this one plays out. I just can't see a way for Wilder. I think he had a chance against Fury who wouldn't have hurt him but with AJ the mistakes he would make get punished. That said I also think Fury could take AJ into the deep end and win on points or a late KO

walshb · 19-08-2017 9:59am

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think that's a good take on how this one plays out. I just can't see a way for Wilder. I think he had a chance against Fury who wouldn't have hurt him but with AJ the mistakes he would make get punished. That said I also think Fury could take AJ into the deep end and win on points or a late KO

It is a very good take, and one I would have more confidence in IF AJ had a chin that I was more confident in.

4-5 rds is 15 minutes of action....What is Wilder doing for that 15 minutes? Getting beaten up, or are all his shots missing or some landing and getting taken?

AJ could take him out in a rd or two. I just don't see this one lasting 15 minutes. One of them will have landed a clean shot to end it...

Could AJ control Wilder for 15 minutes before taking him out? Maybe....But I don't think he will, because he is heavy on his feet, there to be hit and his D is not great. His ofence is very good, but I don't think it is enough to allow him 15 minutes of fighting without getting tagged heavily.

AJs best chance is the same as Wilder's. Early. It's a short shootout here, and for me it's close to a toss up on who gets in with the big shot. I am going with Wilder to find the sweet spot. This bout (for me) will have less to do with skills, feet, composure, balance, ring generalship, setting traps, stamina, heart, guts and grit, as opposed to who lands first and early.

AJ with a solid chin and Wilder with a solid chin may see all the above possibilities....

megadodge · 19-08-2017 1:10pm

walshb wrote: »

It is a very good take, and one I would have more confidence in IF AJ had a chin that I was more confident in.

4-5 rds is 15 minutes of action....What is Wilder doing for that 15 minutes? Getting beaten up, or are all his shots missing or some landing and getting taken?

AJ could take him out in a rd or two. I just don't see this one lasting 15 minutes. One of them will have landed a clean shot to end it...

Could AJ control Wilder for 15 minutes before taking him out? Maybe....But I don't think he will, because he is heavy on his feet, there to be hit and his D is not great. His ofence is very good, but I don't think it is enough to allow him 15 minutes of fighting without getting tagged heavily.

AJs best chance is the same as Wilder's. Early. It's a short shootout here, and for me it's close to a toss up on who gets in with the big shot. I am going with Wilder to find the sweet spot. This bout (for me) will have less to do with skills, feet, composure, balance, ring generalship, setting traps, stamina, heart, guts and grit, as opposed to who lands first and early.

AJ with a solid chin and Wilder with a solid chin may see all the above possibilities....

So basically you're saying those highlighted attributes don't come into play until the later rounds?

That's downright nuts!!

Skills, feet, composure, balance and ring generalship are the very attributes that enable one boxer to land punches on the other, while not taking much in return FROM THE VERY FIRST BELL!! If it was what you say it is then Olympic boxing would be just about who lands first.

Superior skills come into play the moment they start fighting and Joshua's skills are vastly superior to Wilder's.

walshb · 19-08-2017 1:41pm

megadodge wrote: »

So basically you're saying those highlighted attributes don't come into play until the later rounds?

That's downright nuts!!

Skills, feet, composure, balance and ring generalship are the very attributes that enable one boxer to land punches on the other, while not taking much in return FROM THE VERY FIRST BELL!! If it was what you say it is then Olympic boxing would be just about who lands first.

Superior skills come into play the moment they start fighting and Joshua's skills are vastly superior to Wilder's.

No, not saying that, hence my use of the word "less"

There may well be some of those attributes on display in the 2-3 rds max that I believe the fight lasts.

Much more likely that we see more of those attributes should the fight go on rd after rd.

I am well aware that some of those attributes could be shown or needed even in 2-3 rds. I just believe that this is a shootout with a few bombs being thrown, bits of skill here and there and then lights out. Before we know it one man is out, hence not getting to see "too much" of the attributes I mentioned.

One could land a perfect shot(s) via the use of skills and feet and balance etc. I get this. I am just saying that we won't see much of it because the fight will not go on long.

One could also land a perfect shot via not much. Goes for it, the foe is open and lights out. Similar to a hail mary in the sense of "wow, where did that come from."

Wilder does throw bombs that do not have the appearance of thought or skill or much else, but they are still bombs that can KO a man who is there to be hit.

By elite pro standards default there will be elements of skill....I am not saying that there won't be. Just more a shootout type scenario as opposed to them having to show all the attributes I mentioned to any degree of abundance.

squinn2912 · 19-08-2017 5:40pm

walshb wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think that's a good take on how this one plays out. I just can't see a way for Wilder. I think he had a chance against Fury who wouldn't have hurt him but with AJ the mistakes he would make get punished. That said I also think Fury could take AJ into the deep end and win on points or a late KO

It is a very good take, and one I would have more confidence in IF AJ had a chin that I was more confident in.

4-5 rds is 15 minutes of action....What is Wilder doing for that 15 minutes? Getting beaten up, or are all his shots missing or some landing and getting taken?

AJ could take him out in a rd or two. I just don't see this one lasting 15 minutes. One of them will have landed a clean shot to end it...

Could AJ control Wilder for 15 minutes before taking him out? Maybe....But I don't think he will, because he is heavy on his feet, there to be hit and his D is not great. His ofence is very good, but I don't think it is enough to allow him 15 minutes of fighting without getting tagged heavily.

AJs best chance is the same as Wilder's. Early. It's a short shootout here, and for me it's close to a toss up on who gets in with the big shot. I am going with Wilder to find the sweet spot. This bout (for me) will have less to do with skills, feet, composure, balance, ring generalship, setting traps, stamina, heart, guts and grit, as opposed to who lands first and early.

AJ with a solid chin and Wilder with a solid chin may see all the above possibilities....

Why do you feel that AJ's chin is suspect. I'm looking and hoping for chinks but don't see many. Whyte did rock him a bit but he was in about 3/10 trouble. Much more has been made of that than was the case. Wlad hit him with a couple of excellent shots admittedly without an awful lot behind them but he had him in deep deep trouble and he recovered brilliantly.
I agree about the rounds and can't see it going any longer than 3 - your point is still a valid one as Wilder won't stand taking it for 9 mins.
I think AJ can win this fight a number of ways. Wilder will have to swing and flail at anything to win the intriguing bit for me is when he will take that gamble. I do think he has an underrated and underused jab. If he were to raise his performance then there's a case for him to do ok, take some big swings - quite possibly get lucky or get knocked out. He hasn't been hit hard before and I think he will double up when he is.

walshb · 19-08-2017 6:03pm

His chin is not glass. But I don't think it's going to be strong enough to allow him to take a flush Wilder shot, and I do not believe he can defend against the shot(s) or avoid them..

The Wlad fight and shot that had him in serious trouble just has me believing that he won't survive a Wilder bomb...

megadodge · 19-08-2017 6:38pm

The main danger for Joshua is if he repeats his carelessness of the Whyte fight. He was all over Whyte in the first round and had him in trouble by the end of that round, then he got far too cocky and stupidly forgot his boxing trying to walk through Whyte in the second. He learned a tough lesson and I doubt he'll do the same again because against Wilder there is no doubt the American has 'lights out' power that can finish a careless opponent.

I agree with MorrisonJ in that I think both will be cautious early on, simply because both know they can't afford any mistakes. This will lead to a tactical affair which definitely favours Joshua. I repeat Joshua's very good fundamentals are streets ahead of Wilder.

Then there's also your assertion that Joshua doesn't have a great defense. That's just wrong. He doesn't get hit very much at all. Vlad had problems hitting him right throughout their fight and I'd fancy Vlad's ability to land a punch as being 3 or 4 times that of Wilder's.

There's no doubt Wilder has a puncher's chance against anybody, but that's because everything else points to Joshua.

squinn2912 · 21-08-2017 8:28am

I'd agree with that. Wilder looks like he has just one way out of that fight with the win but AJ has several. One thing for Wilder is that he can afford to be behind on the score cards. I think his best chance is getting through a few rounds and then throwing some big shots if and when AJ's stamina dips. He really needs all of the stars to align for this and there's no way of getting around the fact that he's just not as good by a long distance. He has power which is always the big equalizer but after eating some jabs and a big right cross or two and that won't be much use to him.
Do any of you see Dillian Whyte getting a shot at him first? I thought he looked ok the other night but doesn't look to be in wonderful shape. If he'd trim up a bit and takes on another proper contender then I could see him get a shot next spring

nacho libre · 21-08-2017 10:00pm

I would even give Whyte a good chance of beating Wilder. Wilder has the power to ko anyone, but his crudeness/lack of basic boxing skills will be exposed within the next 12 months.

I expect Dubois will be a name familiar to most boxing fans here and in the UK in about two years times. The guy looks to be the real deal.

squinn2912 · 21-08-2017 10:28pm

I think Whyte could do it if he has a good eliminator style fight against Jennings or someone who is also of that status. He needs to fight and beat someone a bit better than Chisora to get that shot I feel. But I can't see him having the stamina to go with one of the belt holders he looks too out of shape. If they fought now I'd have Wilder to ko him frm 7 to 9.
I really like the look of Dubois and he seems to have everything. As long as he continues to improve and gradually step up the levels. Really exciting prospect.

squinn2912 · 25-09-2017 7:34pm

Any thoughts on Parker/Fury fight? I thought Huey did well and at the end Parker thought he'd lost. Fair play to him he's 23 and that should justify his place on the world stage. I thought he marginally won the fight but was going for Parker. I think Parker will look better against better opposition but he was clumsy and one paced looking in this fight.

Heavyweight Boxing

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