Why are Irish-born players playing for England or other nations?

TrueDub · 24-02-2011 10:12am

celtictiger32 wrote: »

can there be more than ten full members in the icc. therefore allowing ireland to compete in test cricket etc. and keep our best players here and still playing at the high level.

(excuse the ignorance only took an interest in cricket over the last few years)

No problem, happy to answer constructively-asked questions.

Yes, it's possible, but the existing 10 members have to vote to let a new country join. There are lots of factors in this, such as:

Cricketing ones - does the new country have the grounds, the players, the structures to support top-level cricket

Political ones - will a new member upset a power balance in the ICC?

Money ones - do the existing 10 members want to share the moneypot with another country?

At the moment, the concerns are money, political and then much further down the list comes cricket.

We'll be lucky to be let in when we're ready, and we're not ready. We could be in a few years, but to take that extra step we would need to know we'll be let in when we do - and my opinion is that we won't. Mainly because they don't want to share the finances, but also because we'd be identified with the England-Australia camp, and having only just got control the sub-continental group will not want to introduce a new vote to the table.

celtictiger32 · 24-02-2011 4:03pm

TrueDub wrote: »

No problem, happy to answer constructively-asked questions.

Yes, it's possible, but the existing 10 members have to vote to let a new country join. There are lots of factors in this, such as:

Cricketing ones - does the new country have the grounds, the players, the structures to support top-level cricket

Political ones - will a new member upset a power balance in the ICC?

Money ones - do the existing 10 members want to share the moneypot with another country?

At the moment, the concerns are money, political and then much further down the list comes cricket.

We'll be lucky to be let in when we're ready, and we're not ready. We could be in a few years, but to take that extra step we would need to know we'll be let in when we do - and my opinion is that we won't. Mainly because they don't want to share the finances, but also because we'd be identified with the England-Australia camp, and having only just got control the sub-continental group will not want to introduce a new vote to the table.

would it mean having to have our own top standard league ( national league type) similar to what they have in england...

from what i see and im only basing my opinion as an outsider looking in we definately have the players, grounds look to be fairly ok -clontarf, malahide, phoenix pk, stormont, railway union etc- (the only ones im familar with) and from what i hear there is development in the pipeline for some of them.

ok i can see the problem with the political and money side but surely every sport wants to spread its net to as many corners as possible, look at the football model where fifa are trying to promote their sport in asia, africa etc, and imo even selected the world cup destination to do so. in turn would that not kind of sort out the money stumbling block, if there was a wider interest would that not generate more revenue??

i run a football club myself and long term i would love to introduce other sports into the club as a kind of all in one sports club/academy, but the kids etc. who play would always have some sort of ambition to play at the highest level and with all due respect i wouldnt imagine a lot of them would want to go and play for england.

TrueDub · 24-02-2011 4:25pm

celtictiger32 wrote: »

would it mean having to have our own top standard league ( national league type) similar to what they have in england...

from what i see and im only basing my opinion as an outsider looking in we definately have the players, grounds look to be fairly ok -clontarf, malahide, phoenix pk, stormont, railway union etc- (the only ones im familar with) and from what i hear there is development in the pipeline for some of them.

Yes, we'd need a first-class structure of some sort - I'd see it being regional or provincial rather than club-based though.

celtictiger32 wrote: »

ok i can see the problem with the political and money side but surely every sport wants to spread its net to as many corners as possible, look at the football model where fifa are trying to promote their sport in asia, africa etc, and imo even selected the world cup destination to do so. in turn would that not kind of sort out the money stumbling block, if there was a wider interest would that not generate more revenue??

Here's where the story differs: the ICC pay lip service to the idea of spreading the game, but their actions differ. They simply don't want to spread the game, because that would mean spreading the wealth. Their actions, specifically limiting the 2015 World Cup to the top ten nations (i.e. the full members), speak volumes of their opinion of associates cricket.

celtictiger32 wrote: »

i run a football club myself and long term i would love to introduce other sports into the club as a kind of all in one sports club/academy, but the kids etc. who play would always have some sort of ambition to play at the highest level and with all due respect i wouldnt imagine a lot of them would want to go and play for england.

Possibly not, but when the only way to play the highest form of the game is to declare for England, they might feel they have to. This is a personal an subjective choice though.

celtictiger32 · 24-02-2011 4:32pm

very strange alright, i suppose i shouldnt be surprised really i know first hand the politics involved in sport.. ah well maybe one day..

btw. i know its off the point but i just thought id ask you being a mod. im new on the boards and just wondering why some of the threads are locked until 50 posts and on boards a month e.g. the soccer threads????

TrueDub · 24-02-2011 4:50pm

celtictiger32 wrote: »

very strange alright, i suppose i shouldnt be surprised really i know first hand the politics involved in sport.. ah well maybe one day..

One day, we all hope.

celtictiger32 wrote: »

btw. i know its off the point but i just thought id ask you being a mod. im new on the boards and just wondering why some of the threads are locked until 50 posts and on boards a month e.g. the soccer threads????

I think the soccer forum has specific rules around who can & can't post, to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high. There is, I believe, a thread in the soccer forum explaining this. If not, a polite PM to one of the soccer mods will get you an explanation.

celtictiger32 · 24-02-2011 10:59pm

TrueDub wrote: »

One day, we all hope.

I think the soccer forum has specific rules around who can & can't post, to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high. There is, I believe, a thread in the soccer forum explaining this. If not, a polite PM to one of the soccer mods will get you an explanation.

thats great im still finding my feet here, thanks for the info on both counts..

riffmongous · 01-03-2011 3:20pm

Am I the only one disgusted by the media coverage of Dockrell? They can't mention him without putting 'England' in the same sentence, you'd swear he was playing for England 'A' at the the moment. I find it incredibly disrespectful to Irish cricket, it wasn't this bad with Morgan and Joyce.

John.Icy · 13-03-2011 4:25am

Just out of intrest, in cricket is there no family relative rule... meaning an Irish born player can play for England without an direct english connection, or would one have to have say an English father or grandfather?

Dozen Wicked Words · 13-03-2011 3:47pm

I dont think there is any sport where the only way to qualify through a country is by a relation. All sports now (AFAIK) allow a person to qualify through residence in a country for a set length of time. Soccer, Athletics and both codes of Rugby do anyway.

darjeeling · 13-03-2011 4:24pm

John.Icy wrote: »

Just out of intrest, in cricket is there no family relative rule... meaning an Irish born player can play for England without an direct english connection, or would one have to have say an English father or grandfather?

The ECB does have a nationality rule, but it specifically includes Irish players. To qualify for England a player must:
1) be either a British or an Irish citizen
and
2) have been born in England or Wales, or have been resident there for at least 7 months of the year for the 4 years before qualification.

link

looseygoosey · 04-04-2011 7:06pm

<snip>

TrueDub · 04-04-2011 7:12pm

looseygoosey banned for trolling.

Hayte · 05-04-2011 9:05pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Am I the only one disgusted by the media coverage of Dockrell? They can't mention him without putting 'England' in the same sentence, you'd swear he was playing for England 'A' at the the moment. I find it incredibly disrespectful to Irish cricket, it wasn't this bad with Morgan and Joyce.

1) Morgan made no bones about the fact that he wanted to play for England. Why? Because he felt he had an international career with England and not with Ireland. I'm not gonna second guess his decision but even with the bench times hes gotten in the past couple of years, he is now widely considered a class T20 and ODI batsman and is highly sought after in the IPL (which is where the real money is at these days).

2) Dockrell plays for Somerset so his name could be mentioned in that context.

3) You will invariably find that really talented Irish cricketers run out of options once they get to a level where they can compete internationally. I'm English but I've lived in Ireland for 6 years and cricket is regarded as confusing, arcane and something of a tan sport over here.

The way cricket flourishes, like any sport is when kids are interested in it and play it in school or whenever the weather is good, when Irish kids have Irish cricketing heroes that they aspire to be. Then they go to quality clubs like Railway Union and learn to get really good. At some point you have a critical mass of interested youngsters to play leagues, you have the demand to outfit proper cricketing grounds and develop a proper first class structure. Test play naturally follows on from that.

TrueDub hit the nail on the head however because the politics in this game are unbelievable and there are vested interests in not seeing the sport expand internationally. If it must do so, then it is preferable to do it in a way that is controlled by the most politically powerful organisations (which are at present the BCCI and PCB).

Hayte · 05-04-2011 9:14pm

John.Icy wrote: »

Just out of intrest, in cricket is there no family relative rule... meaning an Irish born player can play for England without an direct english connection, or would one have to have say an English father or grandfather?

You do need citizenship but that can applied for in lots of different ways I think. Imran Tahir ended up marrying a South African bird and thats how he is playing for South Africa.

Saqlain Mushtaq married an English bird and was about 1 year off being eligible to play for England when injury ended his career permanently. I remember getting real excited that we would get the mighty bearded Pakistani spinner but it wasn't meant to be. Either way, I don't begrudge people seeking to find better opportunities for themselves in this or any sport.

Tahir really wanted to play for his native Pakistan but was always turned down by the selectors in favour of Kaneria and Sami and the like. I can't fault him for wanting to better himself in anyway he can, and its clear his own country weren't going to help him do that. So he went elsewhere and I'm glad he achieved some degree of success this world cup with South Africa.

D3PO · 06-04-2011 9:52am

Hayte wrote: »

. I'm English but I've lived in Ireland for 6 years and cricket is regarded as confusing, arcane and something of a tan sport over here.

with all due respect Id have to say your way off with the above. Im not denying there was an attitude years ago about cricket but that simple doesnt exist any more.

I used to get usual jibes about going to enjoy cucumber sandwiches, or enjoy your game you west brit etc etc when I would tell somebody I was going to play cricket

that doesnt happen anymore. I havent seen so many kids playing cricket in the streets as I have over the past few weeks since Test Match Special used to be on the BBC.

There is a very definate move to embracing the game here, partly due to the success of the Irish team, partly due to the amount of cricket avaiable on digital TV these days and partly due to the hardwork at grass roots level by cricket ireland and the many cricket clubs nationally.

This is what really annoys me that the ICC can come in and in one foul swoop look to undoor a large proportion of this in a second.

Hayte · 07-04-2011 10:25pm

I dunno. I still get ribbed over it constantly. Its not serious of course but still...I don't know many people that follow or understand the sport nor do they want to. I guess its the same in England though. Shrugs.

bitter · 07-04-2011 10:31pm

The same clown who calls someone a west-brit for playing cricket is most likely a rabid follower of a EPL club. The Irish don't do irony very well.

d'Oracle · 11-04-2011 8:03pm

D3PO wrote: »

with all due respect Id have to say your way off with the above. Im not denying there was an attitude years ago about cricket but that simple doesnt exist any more.

I used to get usual jibes about going to enjoy cucumber sandwiches, or enjoy your game you west brit etc etc when I would tell somebody I was going to play cricket

that doesnt happen anymore. I havent seen so many kids playing cricket in the streets as I have over the past few weeks since Test Match Special used to be on the BBC.

There is a very definate move to embracing the game here, partly due to the success of the Irish team, partly due to the amount of cricket avaiable on digital TV these days and partly due to the hardwork at grass roots level by cricket ireland and the many cricket clubs nationally.

This is what really annoys me that the ICC can come in and in one foul swoop look to undoor a large proportion of this in a second.

Where are you at though?

I reckon, unfortunately, that ignorant attitude still exists.
Despite the fact that it is largely not actually true at all.

riffmongous · 01-06-2011 2:17pm

Saw this on the BBC website today, Middlesex bowler Tim Murtagh talking about wanting to play for Ireland since he has no chance of playing for England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/9502158.stm

I'm not too familiar with him, I had a quick look at his stats for this year and they didn't seem hugely impressive with the exception of his LVCC wickets tally, anyone here know much about him?

Edit: I hope this is the best place for this, I didn't really think the article was concrete enough to warrant its own thread and this seemed like the most appropriate thread (in a reverse way)

Cremated · 01-06-2011 8:33pm

In his last first class game he did get 8 wickets and against Essex, hope someone on here will know more about him?, he does know Ed well...

Flashdean · 29-11-2011 11:57am

riffmongous wrote: »

Saw this on the BBC website today, Middlesex bowler Tim Murtagh talking about wanting to play for Ireland since he has no chance of playing for England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/9502158.stm

I'm not too familiar with him, I had a quick look at his stats for this year and they didn't seem hugely impressive with the exception of his LVCC wickets tally, anyone here know much about him?

Edit: I hope this is the best place for this, I didn't really think the article was concrete enough to warrant its own thread and this seemed like the most appropriate thread (in a reverse way)

Has Murtagh followed this up since he announced this?? Im a surrey fan and i grew up watching Tim play for us and would be a great addition to th irish team!

Played the u-19 world cup for England in 00 or 01..

He will get wickets and score a few runs for any lower nation side and would be a grean asset!

TheDrog · 29-11-2011 12:09pm

I would suspect that the Murtagh situation is exactly the same as the Hamish Marshall one whereby if the player appears for Ireland then he is no longer considered english and as such the ECB removes funding. At the moment every game a Kolpak player plays instead of an English qualified player, the county gets £1,100 less from the ECB, so it works out as a lot over the course of the season.

vutshuvo · 20-07-2012 9:38am

may be they want to get short time celebrate y ... we have to change this mentality

Tiernster7 · 29-07-2012 11:27pm

‎''But Rankin has some tough decisions to make in the next few weeks. He is out of contract at the end of the season and, while Warwickshire are keen for him to stay, they are reluctant to share him. They would prefer that he retired from international cricket - Rankin is Ireland's strike bowler - and that he concentrated on county duty. The feeling at Edgbaston is that Rankin often returns from international duty carrying an injury. It leaves Rankin with a desperately tricky decision and provides another reminder of the challenges facing Irish cricket as they seek to break into the top tier of international teams.'

Paragraph from ESPN. Interesting to see how this pans out but emphasizes how the counties understandable self interest means Cricket Ireland needs to be able to pay players enough to make a county contract not the be all. I know crazy talk

For Paws · 02-06-2013 2:21pm

TheDrog wrote: »

I would suspect that the Murtagh situation is exactly the same as the Hamish Marshall one whereby if the player appears for Ireland then he is no longer considered english and as such the ECB removes funding. At the moment every game a Kolpak player plays instead of an English qualified player, the county gets £1,100 less from the ECB, so it works out as a lot over the course of the season.

Surely this situation has to be considered a major obstacle, in addition to all the others already mentioned.

If the ECB can effectively punish or otherwise limit county sides from signing non-England qualified players, those players will naturally seek to make their employment more attractive to county sides by declaring for England.

DominicKid · 03-06-2013 11:10pm

Above True

riffmongous · 03-09-2013 5:00pm

wicorthered wrote: »

Rankin takes a 4 for and Morgan cruising past 50.

What a depressing day. Irish cricket doesn't stand a chance really

I dont care what McCallan says, I have no respect for Eoin Morgan outside of respecting his one day batting ability. He has no business playing ODIs for England, if he wants to play tests fine, but he is not going to get on the test team by playing one days

djimi · 04-09-2013 9:46am

riffmongous wrote: »

I dont care what McCallan says, I have no respect for Eoin Morgan outside of respecting his one day batting ability. He has no business playing ODIs for England, if he wants to play tests fine, but he is not going to get on the test team by playing one days

None of them have any business playing for England but what are you going to do? The England ODI side has been a traditional route into their test side and if he wanted to play test cricket then it was a route that he had to go down (in the absence of a substantial 4 day career at county level having come through the underage ranks or any significant 4-5 day cricket with Ireland to prove his ability at that level). He cant play ODI cricket for one country and test cricket for another, so his hands were tied.

And he was/is good enough to play test cricket. In no way do I begrudge him the chance to try; if I had his ability I would do exactly the same thing. Its easy to say that he should be staying here to help Ireland get test status or whatever, but the reality is that by the time that is likely to happen (if indeed it does happen) he will have spent the better part of his career playing in the second tier of cricket when he had the ability to achieve much more.

riffmongous · 04-09-2013 2:14pm

djimi wrote: »

None of them have any business playing for England but what are you going to do? The England ODI side has been a traditional route into their test side and if he wanted to play test cricket then it was a route that he had to go down (in the absence of a substantial 4 day career at county level having come through the underage ranks or any significant 4-5 day cricket with Ireland to prove his ability at that level). He cant play ODI cricket for one country and test cricket for another, so his hands were tied.

And he was/is good enough to play test cricket. In no way do I begrudge him the chance to try; if I had his ability I would do exactly the same thing. Its easy to say that he should be staying here to help Ireland get test status or whatever, but the reality is that by the time that is likely to happen (if indeed it does happen) he will have spent the better part of his career playing in the second tier of cricket when he had the ability to achieve much more.

But really if a guy isn't having a substantial 4 day career he shouldn't be in test contention, but well that's for the England selectors to decide

riffmongous · 19-02-2014 11:16pm

So is Rankin gone completely from the England setup now? He wasn't listed in any of the Lions teams since the Ashes was he?

Why are Irish-born players playing for England or other nations?

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