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The erection & removal of British colonial monuments in Ireland

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    #62
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    I note that nobody has picked up on my reference to being uncomfortable in a country where my side of our collective history has to be expunged to satisfy the nationalist agenda. I live in a town with a fine statue by Oliver Sheppard celebrating/commemorating 1798, an event where at least four of my ancestors were murdered and two had a very narrow escape, and yet I campaign to keep the memorial graffiti free when perhaps I should be out pulling it down with a block and tackle like the Victoria fountain in Dun Laoghaire. :rolleyes:
    So once again we have the old unionist mantra that if their not 'accomadated' at the expence of nationalism, it's a sort of Ulster will fight blah, blah and must be allowed to force it's way through regardless blah, blah. Once again 82% must pander to 18% :rolleyes: Didn't we see very well how our unionist friends tried to 'accomadate' the nationalists in the six counties 1922 on. Imagine if it was 82% unionist to 18% nationalist how much 'accomadation' the nationalist population would get then.

    The gas thing is how this kind of crap is perpetrated as the ' reasonable way foward ' having to apologise and fell guilty to commerate those who have persuded Irish nationalism and in some perverse way we are supposed to honour those who opposed us ?

    Only the gombeen joke of a state like ours could come up with this BS. Could you imaginge say, the Czechs allowing the Sudatenland Germans to foist the glorifiction of German and Austrian occupation on them ?

    ( BTW, what town are you from ? )


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    #63
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Well said. What an utterly blinkered view of "history" is held by some posters here.

    You want to remove monuments of our past. Others want to leave them where they are. Exactly who is blinkered here?


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    #64
    FiSe
    Registered Users Posts: 821 ✭✭✭FiSe


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    So once again we have the old unionist mantra that if their not 'accomadated' at the expence of nationalism, it's a sort of Ulster will fight blah, blah and must be allowed to force it's way through regardless blah, blah. Once again 82% must pander to 18% :rolleyes: Didn't we see very well how our unionist friends tried to 'accomadate' the nationalists in the six counties 1922 on. Imagine if it was 82% unionist to 18% nationalist how much 'accomadation' the nationalist population would get then.

    The gas thing is how this kind of crap is perpetrated as the ' reasonable way foward ' having to apologise and fell guilty to commerate those who have persuded Irish nationalism and in some perverse way we are supposed to honour those who opposed us ?

    Only the gombeen joke of a state like ours could come up with this BS. Could you imaginge say, the Czechs allowing the Sudatenland Germans to foist the glorifiction of German and Austrian occupation on them ?

    ( BTW, what town are you from ? )

    Talk is cheap especially the one about what they've done to us and what we haven't done to them and what we've done to us and what everybody else done to both us and them... This is said without taking any sides in this discussion.

    I said before, there are monuments in Czech-land dating back to Austro-Hungarian empire if that's what you mean by that Austrian occupation. There are even monuments and war cemeteries from the Austro-Prussia war, Napoleonic wars, the WWI, German cemeteries from WWII and so on...

    I think that Republic of Ireland and Irish people in general should finally start behave like mature proud and independent nation without that silly stain of long gone 'British rule' on our forehead. I think that Irish people should be proud of their history no matter how turbulent it may be. After all, this as well is, what creates nation. And national self esteem.


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    #65
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Where do you live? Not your actual address.

    Interesting username you have too - is it after Viscount Charlemont? :D

    well, my user name is after the place i live, yes its possibly named after Charlemont in Belgium near where the battle of Waterloo took place, the next street here is Waterloo, other street names here include Gibralter, Alexandra, York, Wellington, Military... its Cork City i live in...

    im complaining about these names yet i choose one as my username , really makes me a hypocrite, DUH !!


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    #66
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    charlemont wrote: »
    well, my user name is after the place i live, yes its possibly named after Charlemont in Belgium near where the battle of Waterloo took place, the next street here is Waterloo, other street names here include Gibralter, Alexandra, York, Wellington, Military... its Cork City i live in...

    im complaining about these names yet i choose one as my username , really makes me a hypocrite, DUH !!

    Did I say that? However, it is a bit eccentric given that it is British names that you are complaining about.


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    #67
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    FiSe wrote: »
    Talk is cheap especially the one about what they've done to us and what we haven't done to them and what we've done to us and what everybody else done to both us and them... This is said without taking any sides in this discussion.
    Talk is cheap as very well you know. Anyway it's a History forum, it's there for people to put foward their views.
    I said before, there are monuments in Czech-land dating back to Austro-Hungarian empire if that's what you mean by that Austrian occupation. There are even monuments and war cemeteries from the Austro-Prussia war, Napoleonic wars, the WWI, German cemeteries from WWII and so on...
    Sure their are monuments and war cemeteries to the Napoleonic war in the Czech Rep. as part of their general hisrtory but are you going to tell me that their are statues honouring those such as Heydrich and the SS, the invasion in 1968 by the Soviets standing today in the Czech Republic ? Do the Czechs honour their resistance movement or the collaborators and invading forces ?
    I think that Republic of Ireland and Irish people in general should finally start behave like mature proud and independent nation without that silly stain of long gone 'British rule' on our forehead. I think that Irish people should be proud of their history no matter how turbulent it may be. After all, this as well is, what creates nation. And national self esteem.
    Ah yes we should be proud of Britain's war crimes perpetrated upon this country and the thousands of Irishmen forced by econoimic conscription to carry out the same on innocent, decent people in India, Africa etc. Just goes to show how after 90 years of so called 'independence' the Kevin Meyer's brigade pander to their betters from the 'mainland' and the orange order in the north as a sign of their 'maturity' :rolleyes:


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    The egos of these bastards as they propagated their British royalist nationalism in Ireland, and some people here would contend that the only 'nationalists' are those who have opposed this culture.

    The brits are gone from the south, a few monuments mean nothing except that we should of kept them as they would have been great as tourist attractions where we would be able to get money from British tourists for god knows how many decades/centuries.

    I dare say it but Nelsons pillar beats the spire, at least you could go up to the top of it. Embrace history. Erasing it is akin to the Taliban blowing up the Giant Buddhas. I dont understand people who can hold such spite for something they didnt live through. Brainwashed maybe.


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    #69
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Judgement Day, as a Wexfordian what do you know, if anything about that column which is sited to the left/south of the N25 about 6 miles before New Ross? It looked kinda broken at the top for years then work was done on it.


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    #70
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Where should we stop in the scorched earth policy towards all things British? That clown, Noel Ahern (Bertie's brother), suggested some years ago that all the Royal ciphers should be ground off the pillar boxes around the country and there is some evidence that this policy was in part implemented. Should Leinster House itself be pulled down as it was the home of the Duke of Leinster - a member of the British establishment. Perhaps the GPO and Customs House too and, of course, that ultimate symbol of British oppression - Dublin Castle. Cultural vandalism is what it's called not patriotism.


    Funny how Dublin Castle was / is now the venue of the public judgement place of disgraced Irish Politicans, Haughey etc. And the Venue for swearing in the President of Ireland.

    One thing I would like to see though: You are all aware of the statute above the gates of Dublin Castle as you enter via Dawson Street. The one with her back towards the city. I would like to see this, if money permitted, reversed.


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    #71
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    mike65 wrote: »
    Judgement Day, as a Wexfordian what do you know, if anything about that column which is sited to the left/south of the N25 about 6 miles before New Ross? It looked kinda broken at the top for years then work was done on it.

    column.jpg

    More info than you could shake a big stick at here: http://www.irelandbyways.com/ireland-routes/byroute-3/byroute-hubs-gazetteer/9/ - see you down there with the block and tackle. :D


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    #72
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Cheers for that, facinating site.


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    #73
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    Talk is cheap as very well you know. Anyway it's a History forum, it's there for people to put foward their views.


    Sure their are monuments and war cemeteries to the Napoleonic war in the Czech Rep. as part of their general hisrtory but are you going to tell me that their are statues honouring those such as Heydrich and the SS, the invasion in 1968 by the Soviets standing today in the Czech Republic ? Do the Czechs honour their resistance movement or the collaborators and invading forces ?


    Ah yes we should be proud of Britain's war crimes perpetrated upon this country and the thousands of Irishmen forced by econoimic conscription to carry out the same on innocent, decent people in India, Africa etc. Just goes to show how after 90 years of so called 'independence' the Kevin Meyer's brigade pander to their betters from the 'mainland' and the orange order in the north as a sign of their 'maturity' :rolleyes:

    I would not be inclined to take sides of the discussion of either of ye. Both of ye have put forward valid arguments, regardless of how others might view.

    But, what do you want the English people and government of today do? Seriously. Blair came out and apologised on behalf of his government/country for some of the wrongs inflicted on Ireland. Irish people in Britian are treated equal in Britian. It is not just the Myer's brigade and the orangies one considers but also our people in places like Britian. When bombs were going off in mainland Britian over the years, how many people's first taughts were of their families living in Britain and a dreaded phone call of being told that they are dead or being boycotted/scapegoated/ostraised by the British people, many of whom, their first understanding of Ireland being a bomb in their own city.

    It is the people down here that have to take the big step and stretch out the hand of friendship or forgiveness first because their are some in Unionism who just won't do that, or as we have seen with Ian Paisley (and many authors who have written about him) won't until they have power. Look at what Gutsy Spence (of all people) did, he was meeting Albert Reynolds for years without us knowing about it.

    I find some difficulty with the tourist argument in the sense, that it is alright for the short term money, but they don't have to live in the place. In fairness, many people who believe that the monuments should stay, have acknowledge that there were valid reasons for taking down the monuments after 1922. And rightly so. I also do not think it is a case of forgetting or whitewashing history. To be honest that is nonesense. How could people forget. It was after all the reason for the establishment of these groups in the first place. Its a case of changing the "new order"


    In the Four Courts alone, I understand, there is a tablet dedicated to Lawyers who fought under the Wolfe Tone period, and a wreath is left in their dedication. Elsewhere in the Four Courts, a tablet was errected for those who "fought for Ireland" during WW1 and poppy wreath is regularly placed. Yet there is nothing for 1916-1923. Pearse was not the only lawyer involved in 1916. What about those who went to work for the Republican Courts? (ok, there is one court room named after one)

    It really says an awful lot about the man, but there is very little in cemoration of Eamon De Valera, bar a small side road in Letterkenny. Anything in Clare?

    What about Lemass?, bar the FF cumanns

    Between statutes, place names,GAA, barracks etc the 1916 people are honoured. Any on Tom Clarke and Plunkett (and not Ollie) or John MacBride


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    #74
    Blisterman
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    In Budapest, they've moved all the Soviet monuments to a park, which acts as a kind of like a monument graveyard. Very interesting. Maybe they should have done something like that in Ireland.


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    #75
    FiSe
    Registered Users Posts: 821 ✭✭✭FiSe


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    Sure their are monuments and war cemeteries to the Napoleonic war in the Czech Rep. as part of their general hisrtory but are you going to tell me that their are statues honouring those such as Heydrich and the SS, the invasion in 1968 by the Soviets standing today in the Czech Republic ? Do the Czechs honour their resistance movement or the collaborators and invading forces ?

    I think that we are talking about pre-WWII, even pre-WWI monuments in Ireland?
    In another words, times when CZ was part of A-H empire, just like Ireland was part of British empire. as a such there could be the same attitude towards the 'occupation' and its remnants. In another words, re-naming of towns bearing names of past emperors, revision of town's coats of arms, destruction of monuments from the wars which the Czechs were forced to fight for 'foreign power' and so on...

    But to give you an answer on the recent history. Am not aware of any monuments celebrating Soviet intervention of 1968 - if we are looking at it from their point of view. But there are monuments to the Soviet soldiers of 1945, which perhaps should be destroyed as the answer to the events of 1968?
    And there is surviving Heidrich's Merc on display. Anyway, I've never said that there are statues of SS or Heydrich. I doubt that there ever was one of that H. fella. But could be wrong.


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    #76
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Blisterman wrote: »
    In Budapest, they've moved all the Soviet monuments to a park, which acts as a kind of like a monument graveyard. Very interesting. Maybe they should have done something like that in Ireland.

    I've been to that park. I am no fan of communism but it seemed a bit petty. I understand the moving of statues of Lenin, and the other kitsch Soviet realism statues out there, and hated communist Apparatchiks.

    However I came upon the statue of a previous Budapest Public Travel commissar, who held the office for a long time ( one of the few advantages of Dictatorship if there is someone good on the job) and since I had been around all of Budapest's integrated efficient public transport system for a few euro, I thought he should go right back in the centre where he belonged.


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    #77
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    brianthebard wrote: »
    There are a number of monuments to Connolly outside of Ireland as well, at least two that I know of; one in Cowgate, Edinburgh and one in New Jersey (I think) where he lived for a time.
    Is that edinburgh, Scotland, united Kingdom?
    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    I'm not going to bother getting into a kids pantomine of " Oh no he didn't, oh yes he did " charade. As I said he clinched the argument with " Indeed, I'm still looking for monuments erected by the British to people who fought against British rule "

    So the British should ruch out and build statues of Connolly, Collins and Gandhi, but the Irish shouldn't have any statues of british people in ireland?

    is this not a wee bit hypocritical?


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    #78
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Is that edinburgh, Scotland, united Kingdom?

    Yes why?


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    #79
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Blisterman wrote: »
    In Budapest, they've moved all the Soviet monuments to a park, which acts as a kind of like a monument graveyard. Very interesting. Maybe they should have done something like that in Ireland.

    I look forward to the fun and games trying to turn the Wellington momument on its side.


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    #80
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Yes why?

    Just checking. Apparently the British don't erect monuments to the people they were fighting, only the imperial war mongers themselves.


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    #81
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    brianthebard wrote: »
    There are a number of monuments to Connolly outside of Ireland as well, at least two that I know of; one in Cowgate, Edinburgh and one in New Jersey (I think) where he lived for a time.


    Statue%20%2311.jpg



    This is the James Connolly statue in Union Park Chicago.


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    #82
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Just checking. Apparently the British don't erect monuments to the people they were fighting, only the imperial war mongers themselves.

    Not really the same thing considering Cowgate was the slum he grew up in, was called 'Little Ireland' at the time, and he fought for the Scottish Workers rights. But I'm sure the imperialist war mongers were the ones to sponsor the memorial.


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    #83
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Connelly was mostly a socialist, his nationalism was sub-servient to that. As such it isn't that surprising that there are monuments to him. Or streets named after him. Washington has a street named after him in Cork. This goes on all over.


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    #84
    scarlett998
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭scarlett998


    snip


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    #85
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Scarlet the history forum is not for getting help wtih college assignments.


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    #86
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    delta_bravo wrote: »
    They serve as a reminder as to our history as a colony of the British Empire. If you were to follow your logic we should destroy all vestiges of our colonial past: Leinster House, Trinity College, Georgian Dublin, Heuston Station and all of the old houses of the landed gentry. They are part of our history. It seems pathetic to want them all to be banished.

    Those are all great buildings that have practical purposes.

    Statues and monuments to British figures have no such utilitarianism. Their only ever purpose was to project power and propaganda. Such is their nature, that they were invariably built in town squares and prominent places. Leaving them in place would be as ridicules as not bothering to change Queenstown to Cork.

    A few people have brought up Irish "monuments" in the UK. There is no comparison. The mentioned James Connelly "monument" in Edinburgh is a small plaque, from memory it's located under a bridge in the Cowgate. Other monuments to Irish nationalist figures are almost always small plaques or cenotaphs located in cemeteries. They in no way compare or equate to the large monuments and statue's to British military leaders and Royals located in the centre of Dublin and every major town in Ireland.

    Also, someone mentioned the Queen Victoria statue in Sydney that used to sit in front of Leinster House. I too have seen it in person. Politics aside, is it not one of the most ghastly things you've ever seen? Is it really a crime against history that an ugly statue built in 1904 was removed from Dublin?


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    #87
    scarlett998
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭scarlett998


    brianthebardlp
    not really looking for help maybe just a suggestion of issues that would apply to ireland and world war one
    was originally doing tom kettle but someone in my class got there before me.
    just wondering if anyone out there had used the national library or archives in relation to these issues and if they were useful


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    #88
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    walrusgumble wrote: »
    It really says an awful lot about the man, but there is very little in cemoration of Eamon De Valera, bar a small side road in Letterkenny. Anything in Clare?

    DeValera Court is an estate in Nenagh.

    There used to a hotel he often stayed in, owned by one of his friends.
    So when they built the estate they named it after him

    Not an interesting story but it's an example anyway


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    #89
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    scarlett998 wrote: »
    brianthebardlp
    not really looking for help maybe just a suggestion of issues that would apply to ireland and world war one
    was originally doing tom kettle but someone in my class got there before me.
    just wondering if anyone out there had used the national library or archives in relation to these issues and if they were useful

    I know exactly what you were doing and its not permitted in this forum. The national archive/library obviously has relevant information. No more posts on this topic now. Mod.


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    #90
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I seem to remember around 20 years back when a tree planted by DeValera in a North Cork Village was cut down by persons unknown with a chainsaw one night.It might have been a statement or a drunken prank. Who knows. More importantly, who cares.

    Before modern media a statue or a parade had some significance. Where is the DeValera Monument or the Collins Monument. They are not there.

    The reason more than any is that in the modern era they are not significant.

    In the UK, the Queens Speech had 28 million viewers in 1987, 15 million in 1996 & 9 million last year. It was traditional viewing at christmas in the UK as turkey & ham was for dinner.

    In Ireland these days a statue to anyone is really of little significance. The only one that springs to mind in recent years was the vandalism of the Sean Russell statue for his Nazi Connections . (I would not have been aware of the statue except for the vandalism)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jan/02/ireland

    Is the Sean Russell statue a potent symbol to me. No. I question why its there and not Collins or DeValera or WT Cosgrave or Douglas Hyde but would not vandalise it.

    The removal of colonial monuments really takes from another Irish traditions heritage. There is no real reason for it. I can't see the reason for it.

    Like the Queens speech in Britain , monuments are passe and hold little power or sway these days other than weak connections with the past.


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    #91
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    brianthebard wrote: »
    I know exactly what you were doing and its not permitted in this forum. The national archive/library obviously has relevant information. No more posts on this topic now. Mod.

    I bet Alderman John Jinks is still available :pac:


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