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Dart+ — no Ballyfermot station and why not just four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel

2

Comments

  • #32
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    There is well over a 1000 homes within walking distance of Klymore bridge. You'd also have a number of people travelling from further a field to use it along with a number of workers commuting to there.

    I'd nearly argue there is enough demand for a second station around Sarsfield Road for Inchicore.


  • #33
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The density of the area to the South is going to massively, massively increase in the next few years. Royal Liver Retail Park going for apartments, old Nissan plant (Fiat Ireland more recently) going for apartments. The low rise industrial/commercial North of the canal is going to be obviously on the block after that


  • #34
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Too lazy to quote but whoever said Ballyfermot is full of 3-bed semis...I’m going assume you’ve never actually been to Ballyfermot? Ballyfermot Mainer is easily one of the busiest places I know in Dublin footfall wise, granted the Kylemore station would be a way’s away but seriously!


  • #35
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    I was only thinking something similar yesterday that in all the years I have known Ballyer [I grew up there and am still fond of tipping into Lam's once in a while], that the main strip at Colepark has never had an empty unit that I recall. And if it did, it wasn't for very long.


  • #36
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Isn't DART+ SW supposed to be available now? does anyone have a date/timeline?


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  • #37
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MyLove4Satan wrote: »
    Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

    Actual density of more than 5,800 people per square km around the railway in Ballyfermot -- this seems to be the highest current density along a railway line outside of Dublin City Centre.

    The only place that comes close to this along a railway line outside the city centre in Dublin is between Raheny and Kilbarrack (5,700 per square km).

    550435.PNG

    https://dancooksonresearch.carto.com/u/dancookson/viz/49ca276c-adf9-454a-8f64-0ccf0e46eed0/embed_map

    Some of the above may be forced density (ie people living in their family homes for longer due to the housing crisis), but the fact remains, it's not low density compared to the rest of the network. None of the coastal areas the Dart serves or the commuter towns it will serve comes close to 5,800 people per square km and Ballyfermot also has workplaces and educational trip generators.


  • #38
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Cabra has an ever greater number and there 2011 numbers.


  • #39
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Fully gentrified now. 60 year old 2 bed council houses now fetching up to €400k, residents can't afford anti-social behaviour here anymore and there's heavy footfall (pre covid). Expect the same in South Finglas when Luas arrives.

    Not really the topic under discussion. But the population in an area doesn't change that much in 3 or 4 years. The train station has largely changed because of the massive footfall and frequency of Luas's. It's pulling in people from a large area. There's also a lot transfer between trains and Luas.

    Also many stations are park and ride. So they don't have to be in the middle of dense housing to be effective.

    The high prices are also reflective of housing crisis. You don't gentrify an area in 3 or 4 years. There are areas in Dublin that had seemed to gentrified but with reduction of footfall due to lockdown anti social behaviour has reverted to what it was years ago. But this is really all off topic.

    I don't really have any faith in whomever forecasts demand in stations. They were talking of closing Docklands due to low numbers, numbers caused by the low frequency and shortening of the trains on the route. Nothing to do with demand at all.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irelands-newest-train-station-could-move-because-of-major-shortfall-in-passengers-36916197.html


  • #40
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Docklands couldn't serve any more passengers than it was serving as the peak-time trains were crush capacity in peak direction; and it had no non-peak trains at all. Either train lengths or frequencies had to go up to increase.


  • #41
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    In the yrs I was using the Docklands trains they actually shortened the trains as number of passengers increased. They wanted to close it, then move it. Using low numbers as a justification. When the reality was it was jammed beyond belief. Some weird scheming going on with all that.

    The platforms can take much longer trains. The trains used to be longer. So I assume they robbed capacity from that line to use somewhere else. So even without changing the schedule. The line used to have higher capacity in the past.

    Anyway sounds like there's similar "planning" going on with Dart+.


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  • #42
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    beauf wrote: »
    In the 5 or 6 yrs I was using the Docklands trains they actually shortened the trains as number of passengers increased.

    They wanted to close it, then move it. Using low numbers as a justification. Some weird planning

    Not weird at all. It's the IÉ way.


  • #43
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Docklands station was always a temporary location. It only had planning permission to remain there for a number of years, that's been renewed. It was suggested to move the station due to low numbers rather than close it which was always the plan.

    The capacity and frequency issues are the same problems effecting the rest of the commuter belt. Running a 3 car ICR on Pearse - Maynooth at peak times is going to upset a lot more people than it will on Docklands - M3.


  • #44
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The make and changes plan more often that they actually do them.


  • #45
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    beauf wrote: »
    The make and changes plan more often that they actually do them.

    I'm pretty sure the Maynooth line will lose direct trains into Docklands if the upgrade goes ahead.


  • #46
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Well Maynooth hasn't got any anyway, but there still will be in the proposed service plans and a cross platform interchange at Glasnevin is no real hardship


  • #47
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,735 ✭✭✭SeanW


    beauf wrote: »
    In the yrs I was using the Docklands trains they actually shortened the trains as number of passengers increased. They wanted to close it, then move it. Using low numbers as a justification. When the reality was it was jammed beyond belief. Some weird scheming going on with all that.

    The platforms can take much longer trains. The trains used to be longer. So I assume they robbed capacity from that line to use somewhere else. So even without changing the schedule. The line used to have higher capacity in the past.

    Anyway sounds like there's similar "planning" going on with Dart+.
    The whole thing is bizarre. They're using 29000 class bone-jarring rattleboxes to provide intercity service to Sligo and Rosslare, while using 22000s that are wholly unsuited to provide peak-hour services between M3 Parkway and the Docklands. I think they used to use 4 car ICRs on the Docklands trains and then switched to 3 car trains a few years back.

    There may be a good technical reason why this is happening, if so the only solution is to get more fit for purpose trains ASAP. But if it's just IE playing silly buggers assigning train types inappropriately for no reason, then IMHO serious questions need to be asked.


  • #48
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Docklands got a mix of 3 and 4 car 22k (and often one 29k in the mix too) so it wasn't consistently 3 car. But the peak services were crush capacity on the 29k even and I'm fairly sure more passengers closer in would go to Docklands if they could fit on the trains, relieving Connolly and the Luas a bit


  • #49
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,735 ✭✭✭SeanW


    You're probably right, there's likely a mix. But I do recall at least one peak hour train being shortened to 3 car 22k, which just struck me as bizarre.


  • #50
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    L1011 wrote: »
    Docklands got a mix of 3 and 4 car 22k (and often one 29k in the mix too) so it wasn't consistently 3 car. But the peak services were crush capacity on the 29k even and I'm fairly sure more passengers closer in would go to Docklands if they could fit on the trains, relieving Connolly and the Luas a bit

    Haven't seen a 4 car in recent years. But maybe it's not on at my times.

    I started to skip the Docklands and get the Connolly train instead. It's was usually dramatically less over crowded.

    Which is ironic because you'd think it would be easy to add capacity to the Docklands. Longer trains, and they have space for more platforms. Instead they reduced capacity. Meaning I switch back to the Connolly train. I might not be representative though. I'll be unlikely to go back to 5 days in the office too, so it's no longer an issue for me.

    I assume WFH will ease peak numbers slightly for a while.


  • #51
    MyLove4Satan
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    Reopening the old station on the riverfront as stage one of the DART Underground is the best location for a station in the docklands. Footbridge across the river to go with it. Then you have a proper 'Docklands' station.


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  • #52
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The above ground lines will never be reinstated to the old station as the Luas is in the way

    There will be a need for a station building of some description for those lines even after DU/DART+ Tunnel as it's now named


  • #53
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    MyLove4Satan wrote: »
    Reopening the old station on the riverfront as stage one of the DART Underground is the best location for a station in the docklands. Footbridge across the river to go with it. Then you have a proper 'Docklands' station.

    I think people underestimate how useful the docklands station is for the rest of town. Especially bike hires all over the place. Its poorly promoted. Of course with no spare capacity there would be no point in encouraging more people to use it now.


  • #54
    Breezer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    MyLove4Satan wrote: »
    Reopening the old station on the riverfront as stage one of the DART Underground is the best location for a station in the docklands. Footbridge across the river to go with it. Then you have a proper 'Docklands' station.

    I’m curious. Where was this?


  • #55
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Any tunnel changes or advancement could lead to a rethink of Spencer Dock. It could end up been an awful lot more viable and easier just to put the whole station underground and have the portal in from the beginning.


  • #56
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Breezer wrote: »
    I’m curious. Where was this?

    North Wall Train Station

    Here it is on google street view. Quite a nice building, but kinda put in the shade by the LNR hotel next door.

    The recent exploration of ideas for Docklands suggested that they'd look at running the line underneath the Luas tracks, into the back of the train station, where the Europcar area is now. If they figure out what they wanted to do with DU first, then they could make this station part of the tunnel portal.


  • #57
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Presumably any underground station at Spencer Dock will have to be relatively shallow, in order to get trains up to the Northern Line?

    What was the max gradient proposed under Dart Underground?


  • #58
    MyLove4Satan
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    L1011 wrote: »
    The above ground lines will never be reinstated to the old station as the Luas is in the way


    They could turn them so they run up Park Lane to pass in front of the station (on the quays) and then back down the other side onto Mayor Street Upper. A Luas Station for the DART station and the Convention Centre could be on Park Lane itself so as to not stop on the quays. Then the incline into the reopened station is not an issue.

    https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3482694,-6.2385035,280m/data=!3m1!1e3


  • #59
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Not trying to be negative. But have they made any real progress towards the capacity issues at Connolly. While all these other ideas are great, is Connolly not a keystone around everything else has to fit.

    There was a lot of spare land with old railway infrastructure between Connolly and the Point. It's slowly disappearing. Whatever about it not being in exactly in the right place. I hope we don't regret selling it off in the future. Then all we will hear is how there's no space.

    Apologies if this is off topic. But you guys seem to know what's happening...


  • #60
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    MyLove4Satan wrote: »
    They could turn them so they run up Park Lane to pass in front of the station (on the quays) and then back down the other side onto Mayor Street Upper. A Luas Station for the DART station and the Convention Centre could be on Park Lane itself so as to not stop on the quays. Then the incline into the reopened station is not an issue.

    https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3482694,-6.2385035,280m/data=!3m1!1e3

    They're not going to put a significant diversion in just to move the trains a tiny bit closer to the quays


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  • #61
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Presumably any underground station at Spencer Dock will have to be relatively shallow, in order to get trains up to the Northern Line?

    What was the max gradient proposed under Dart Underground?

    There was mention of the max 3.5% gradient limit been breach in various options but not sure if that was the station, the approach or a portal ect.


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