AP1 and AP2 Posts

Random sample · 10-04-2021 6:56am

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is fairytale stuff. Are year heads delegating? ICT co-ordinators delegating? TY/LCA/SSE co-ordinators delegating? Unbelievable.

Ict coordinator sets up a digital strategy group and delegates work throughout. Year heads delegate work to the class tutor, programme coordinators delegate to the class teachers. Well-being coordinator sets up a well-being committee to plan activities. Deis coordinator oversees the work of the deis committees, and every teacher in some schools is expected to be a member of a deis committee, with the chair rotating annually.

am_zarathustra · 10-04-2021 9:48am

The bulk of the work and planning should be done by the post holder. If your ICT it would be certainly sensible to ask the SEN department to list any resources they might need, or if they would like a particular software set over another but the policy writing, budgeting, and most implementation etc would be down to the post holder. You can delegate that work, or you shouldn't. Implementation to some level will need delegation. I like the diffuser leadership model, not everyone is passionate or cares about every area but most people would have a valuable comment or two about their own experience of it.

I find staff don't mind being on well defined, effective teams with a sense their opinion is valued. But buying treats, asking as opposed to delegating work, and saying thank you go along way. Keeping a team positive and forward thinking is a skill in itself.

Mardy Bum · 10-04-2021 11:00am

Random sample wrote: »

Ict coordinator sets up a digital strategy group and delegates work throughout. Year heads delegate work to the class tutor, programme coordinators delegate to the class teachers. Well-being coordinator sets up a well-being committee to plan activities. Deis coordinator oversees the work of the deis committees, and every teacher in some schools is expected to be a member of a deis committee, with the chair rotating annually.

If the teacher is doing work that eats into their own planning time for these activities all you are doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Digital strategy at most involves teachers upskilling which they can use their 10 hours for. Year heads asking tutors to read out notices, go on school trip during the day, etc. isn't extra work that requires payment. Class time should be used for wellbeing initiatives with students. Being on a committee and actually doing something are also very different propositions.

All I can see from here is that some schools are taking advantage of teachers under the distributed leadership banner.

lulublue22 · 10-04-2021 11:21am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

I'm not familiar with secondary school structure, but at primary level it's not uncommon for the postholder to be given a list of the tasks that need doing by management. Then they distribute the tasks among their colleagues and oversee them.

As i said, i don't have experience with second level so I'm not sure what the workload would be for postholders who are year heads, ICT Co-ordinators etc. How many posts would a typical SS have, is it same as primary with just the one or two?

I’m primary - have not had that experience- Consensus is one thing delegating work that you are paid extra to do is another. Promotion is so limited in primary with very little posts available depending on school size and age of post holders that it is fair cheeky to expect others to take on work that a post holder is paid to do - Over the span of a career it can be a substantial difference in income.

keoclassic · 10-04-2021 11:23am

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

It's distributive leadership - it improves morale as all stakeholders have an opinion in the running of the school - some are paid, some are not. The day of the autocratic leader is gone for the betterment of the school community.

This post is exactly what is wrong with the way posts are currently set up, it creates an environment where responsibility is greatly diminished for tasks not being completed. It reminds me of the HSE middle managment structure. It rewards "delegators" and gives very little to the person who actually does the job. If you want a post, be prepared to do it yourself and don't expect to form committees for the duties of said post. Every staff meeting over the last number of years that I was teaching sought committees for this and that by management. Do the job you are paid to do and do it yourself.

Empowering workers in this way is utter tripe!

noplacehere · 10-04-2021 11:38am

keoclassic wrote: »

This post is exactly what is wrong with the way posts are currently set up, it creates an environment where responsibility is greatly diminished for tasks not being completed. It reminds me of the HSE middle managment structure. It rewards "delegators" and gives very little to the person who actually does the job. If you want a post, be prepared to do it yourself and don't expect to form committees for the duties of said post. Every staff meeting over the last number of years that I was teaching sought committees for this and that by management. Do the job you are paid to do and do it yourself.

Empowering workers in this way is utter tripe!

I completely agree. I think it’s fundamentally unfair to have some teachers getting paid for additional work outside the classrooms and others not. I think the whole posts system is an absolute farce. And the chairs of the subject departments should be paid given the expectations of inspections these days

lulublue22 · 10-04-2021 11:44am

keoclassic wrote: »

This post is exactly what is wrong with the way posts are currently set up, it creates an environment where responsibility is greatly diminished for tasks not being completed. It reminds me of the HSE middle managment structure. It rewards "delegators" and gives very little to the person who actually does the job. If you want a post, be prepared to do it yourself and don't expect to form committees for the duties of said post. Every staff meeting over the last number of years that I was teaching sought committees for this and that by management. Do the job you are paid to do and do it yourself.

Empowering workers in this way is utter tripe!

It seems to me to be more like increasing staff workload with out renumeration. Staff can feel valued without taking on tasks that have been allocated to post holders. All post holders work in our school is outside of teaching hours ( as it should be) that in my book necessitates renumeration.

Mardy Bum · 10-04-2021 11:47am

keoclassic wrote: »

This post is exactly what is wrong with the way posts are currently set up, it creates an environment where responsibility is greatly diminished for tasks not being completed. It reminds me of the HSE middle managment structure. It rewards "delegators" and gives very little to the person who actually does the job. If you want a post, be prepared to do it yourself and don't expect to form committees for the duties of said post. Every staff meeting over the last number of years that I was teaching sought committees for this and that by management. Do the job you are paid to do and do it yourself.

Empowering workers in this way is utter tripe!

This is more about a poor school culture probably led from the top than it is posts. Post should be clearly defined with responsibilities. In some schools the responsibilities are not defined which is an issue and allows "delegation".

Icsics · 10-04-2021 1:17pm

‘Building capacity’ ‘distributed leadership’ all that rubbish came in with the LAOS document & Ps DPs live by it because at their next ‘management interview’ as they climb the ‘career ladder’ that’s where the marks are awarded. In my experience posts can also be so vague as to be meaningless, ‘leading teaching & learning’ is an AP1 & I’d say the post holder herself would be hard presssed to explain it. It leads to bad feeling amongst staff & often the younger teachers, who don’t know any better, end up doing things that the post holder should be doing. The new breed of VPs is also an issue, VPs who play the system & don’t teach any classes (even though they should be on half a timetable) & again don’t appear to have any duties because absolutely everything is delegated. I am very happy without a post & if I get any ‘requests’ I redirect to the post holder.

keoclassic · 10-04-2021 1:20pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is more about a poor school culture probably led from the top than it is posts. Post should be clearly defined with responsibilities. In some schools the responsibilities are not defined which is an issue and allows "delegation".

Correct and Right about the posts. But it exists in all schools that I taught in. I wouldn't say if has anything to do with school culture and more to do with taking advantage of as many people as you can. School culture is much more than poor management.

Mardy Bum · 10-04-2021 2:16pm

keoclassic wrote: »

Correct and Right about the posts. But it exists in all schools that I taught in. I wouldn't say if has anything to do with school culture and more to do with taking advantage of as many people as you can. School culture is much more than poor management.

Poor leadership will inevitably lead to a deteriorating culture. Irish schools are notorious for ill defined structures that inevitably lead to some people being taken advantage of. Some see leadership and management as inspirational quotes rather than the role of creating self sustaining systems in a school that can live on past the leader's term. This is also because of a lack of resources and poor leadership courses.

am_zarathustra · 10-04-2021 2:43pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Poor leadership will inevitably lead to a deteriorating culture. Irish schools are notorious for ill defined structures that inevitably lead to some people being taken advantage of. Some see leadership and management as inspirational quotes rather than the role of creating self sustaining systems in a school that can live on past the leader's term. This is also because of a lack of resources and poor leadership courses.

This is so important. The lack of lime management for principals makes them answerable to no one, the Dept should have a role but they don't seem to want to do anything. It's a fifedom, you can be lucky or unlucky really but it's a role of the dice, very little quality control.

And the self sustaining part is vital. People with good management skills should be indentified and trained like every other profession.

AP1 and AP2 Posts

Comments