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Theft of Items from our Baby’s Grave

13

Comments

  • #62
    Badly Drunk Boy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,445 ✭✭✭Badly Drunk Boy


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    What little kids would be in a graveyard though? Other than those accompanied by an adult.
    We all know how attentive some parents can be. :rolleyes: Small kids are often in graveyards to visit their grandparents' (or a parent's) grave, but they also have very low attention spans so they can wander off, and a glimpse of a colourful toy nearby would call out to them.

    My father died earlier this year so I've been to the graveyard more than usual, and sometimes I'm surprised to see some items still at some graves. For example, there's one grave where a child has written out their (young) father's name in Lego, and while none with a heart would take that, a little child wouldn't know any different. In this case, it's not something that wouldn't go unnoticed by parents (because of it's size) but something smaller could end up in the child's pocket.

    Another thing I've noticed is a couple of things appearing on my father's grave that weren't put there by close family members. One in particular was some sort of candle thing that looked like it had been exposed to the elements for a good while, so we assumed it was moved from another grave. :confused:

    I'm sure all sorts of things happen in graveyards for mad (or even, no) reasons.


  • #63
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭AlanG


    Really sorry for your loss OP.
    While you may be tempted to set up a hidden camera it would be illegal in a public place where people have an expectation of privacy and you could well end up with a massive legal bill or even criminal conviction if people find out. If you approach the parents of a child with evidence they may well sue you and your evidence will be inadmissible either way. If your camera were to catch something in the backgound such as a child having a pee against a tree you could face criminal charges.


  • #64
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    OP, may I suggest some form of lockable display case for these items. Since its PJ masks stuff going missing im gonna go out on a limb and say its kids passing by that dont know any better so are just picking them up. Sorry for your loss.


  • #65
    D3V!L
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭D3V!L


    AlanG wrote: »
    Really sorry for your loss OP.
    While you may be tempted to set up a hidden camera it would be illegal in a public place where people have an expectation of privacy and you could well end up with a massive legal bill or even criminal conviction if people find out. If you approach the parents of a child with evidence they may well sue you and your evidence will be inadmissible either way. If your camera were to catch something in the backgound such as a child having a pee against a tree you could face criminal charges.

    Where did you pull this nugget of pure nonsense from ?


  • #66
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,107 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Up Donegal wrote: »
    One would hope that if an adults who are in a graveyard with their children would tell the children to return anything they lifted back to where they got it.

    That would involve parenting, a skill absent in many people who have children.

    OP, I am so sorry people are doing this to your little one's grave. Is there a way you could create a more private personal memorial space, perhaps plant a tree or bush in a family member's garden? I know it wouldn't be her actual grave site, but it would be free from interference.

    Sadly, I don't think the guards will prioritise the stealing/vandalism and it just will continue and upset you more.


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  • #67
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Up Donegal wrote: »
    One would hope that if an adults who are in a graveyard with their children would tell the children to return anything they lifted back to where they got it.

    You must be joking. A person I know caught a child jumping on the roof of their car. When they told the parents the answer was "they are only a child" but much less politely. If that's what parents do when their children are vandalising a neighbours car what will they do when they are stealing.


  • #68
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I agree with others that the most likely thing occurring here is that young kids are seeing them and taking them without really considering what they're doing. It's incredibly unlikely that anyone is delberately targetting the grave or being malicious.

    A child could pick them up, the parent asks, "Where did you get that?" and the child says, "I just found it over there". Nobody really gives it much more thought, the parent doesn't consider that it might have come from a grave. It's not bad parenting or evil children, just an unfortunate thing.

    I have a 3 year old. I know in her case if my back was turned and she saw toys, she'd go pick them up and bring them to me to show me. It wouldn't matter where they were, she wouldn't understand that you don't touch a grave.

    As mentioned above, a case that you could lock them into, or some other way of securing them to the grave would likely make them a permanent fixture.


  • #69
    jiltloop
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭jiltloop


    Firstly, sorry for you loss OP.

    I would echo someone else's suggestion above that maybe a laminated message appealing to any would be thieves might make a difference, worth a try anyway.

    I think a camera is a difficult one to set up and may be on shakey ground considering GDPR. A better idea might be to attach a mini GPS tracker to one of the toys and see where it ends up if it does go missing. Something like the below maybe?

    https://www.gearbest.com/gps-accessories/pp_009363905538.html?wid=1433363&currency=EUR&vip=4452575&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI65_3lLP75QIVC7DtCh2ISguEEAYYAiABEgJkvvD_BwE


  • #70
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Del2005 wrote: »
    You must be joking. A person I know caught a child jumping on the roof of their car. When they told the parents the answer was "they are only a child" but much less politely. If that's what parents do when their children are vandalising a neighbours car what will they do when they are stealing.

    Watched children playing in a graveyard, using the vault graves as climbing frames; parents chatting.

    Then another family and the mother gently chiding her children; telling them there are people sleeping under the stones.

    They need teaching is all. Respect for the dead and for their families

    The worst I ever saw was at Ross Errilly. A man had set up a play space and picnic in the nave, atop a nice flat ancient grave slab, radio on loud, for him and his child. We had a chat.


  • #71
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    jiltloop wrote: »
    A better idea might be to attach a mini GPS tracker to one of the toys and see where it ends up if it does go missing. Something like the below maybe?

    https://www.gearbest.com/gps-accessories/pp_009363905538.html?wid=1433363&currency=EUR&vip=4452575&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI65_3lLP75QIVC7DtCh2ISguEEAYYAiABEgJkvvD_BwE


    Yeah was going to suggest a GPS tracker.
    That one only has 4-6 days battery life and you'll need a sim card.

    There's others too : https://thelightbug.com/products/lb-zero.html
    But more expensive and ultimately, even if you track them down to their house and see them with the toys in their hand, it's still not worth
    the confrontation and the guards aren't likely to consider it worth their time.

    But really, it might be best to consider a little shrine at home instead.


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  • #72
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Strumms wrote: »
    Just stealing a few items, wow... ridiculous comment. Stealing from the grave of a recently deceased child. ‘Just a few items’ which clearly meant a lot to the parents who placed them there and the child. Wow,

    Ah that's not how meant it. It was in the context of there being lots of other items there that weren't taken


  • #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Graces7 wrote: »
    It is to her, even ten years on, far far more than a symbol. Else no one would put flowers on a grave and they do.

    It is a symbol. The same way as a church or a cross is a symbol for people who need such things. If it's not a symbol what is it in reality? Do you really want to believe your loved one resides in that bleak spot? If you honestly believe the spirit lives on, why the heck would it hang around a graveyard? I know I'd be out of there before the mourners left the carpark. A kid's spirit, if there really was such a thing, would surely be far more likely to hang around the Mum or Dad.


  • #74
    tempnam
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭tempnam


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    What little kids would be in a graveyard though? Other than those accompanied by an adult.

    My wife and I brought our kids to visit their Granny's grave at the weekend. While we were putting flowers in the little pots at the headstone our youngest (18 months) wandered over to another grave and came back to us with a little windmill in his hand - delighted with himself. If I hadn't seen which grave he'd taken it from I wouldn't have known where to put it back.

    Just a thought OP, this might not necessarily be malicious....

    It could be other little kids pocketing stuff while their parents are attending to their own family's graves... Even if the parents catch their child with something taken from a grave, they might not know exactly which grave it belongs on.

    Another thought - it could be wild animals or birds, picking up / moving things? I've seen hares and foxes in our graveyard on occasion. Probably a long-shot; but just saying that it may not be someone actively trying to upset you.


  • #75
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,804 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    seamus wrote: »
    A child could pick them up, the parent asks, "Where did you get that?" and the child says, "I just found it over there". Nobody really gives it much more thought, the parent doesn't consider that it might have come from a grave. It's not bad parenting or evil children, just an unfortunate thing.

    Nothing unfortunate about it. It’s a deliberate situation that manifested itself. Most decent parents who give a fûck would be asking their kid something like... “hey where did you find that necklace that you have ?” Kid... “ohhh on that grave” .. “ok well that belongs to that boy/girl and they are going to be really sad if you take it and so will their parents, let’s put it back” followed later with a bit of an update about taking stuff that doesn’t belong to you..

    Jeeez, weird I was talking with my parents over lunch about this after having typed the above and when I went to mention it I could see it touched a nerve.. apparently yesterday they were at my sisters grave and found that the stone angel that had been there since day one had been stolen. It was a nice angel about three feet tall that my Dad always said was looking out for her... some fûckwit just upped and half inched it. It would have been there 40 years, they are a bit upset and stressed as you can imagine.. would have weighed a bit too so it didn’t blow away :confused:


  • #76
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is a symbol. The same way as a church or a cross is a symbol for people who need such things. If it's not a symbol what is it in reality? Do you really want to believe your loved one resides in that bleak spot? If you honestly believe the spirit lives on, why the heck would it hang around a graveyard? I know I'd be out of there before the mourners left the carpark. A kid's spirit, if there really was such a thing, would surely be far more likely to hang around the Mum or Dad.

    It is where she is buried. Simply that. The body you carried in your body nine months, the body you nursed and fed and cared for. Where you said goodbye to her, saw her laid in the ground.

    It is far far more than a symbol; maybe a male/female divide here. And clearly precious as such to the OP which is what matters here.


  • #77
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is a symbol. The same way as a church or a cross is a symbol for people who need such things. If it's not a symbol what is it in reality? Do you really want to believe your loved one resides in that bleak spot? If you honestly believe the spirit lives on, why the heck would it hang around a graveyard? I know I'd be out of there before the mourners left the carpark. A kid's spirit, if there really was such a thing, would surely be far more likely to hang around the Mum or Dad.

    While I accept that many people find solace and a closeness to their loved ones at the gravesides, my wife and I feel as you do. We lost a baby many years ago, and grieve for him to this day, but have never found that connection to his grave. We feel him with us wherever we are and particularly when we are at home. Of course we keep his grave properly and will visit from time to time but we just don't believe that he is really there,


  • #78
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    I wouldn't necessarily blame children or animals, especially since its happening regularly. There are plenty of religious zealots out there who would think putting toys in a graveyard is sacrilege and would throw them in the bin.


  • #79
    farmchoice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭farmchoice


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is a symbol. The same way as a church or a cross is a symbol for people who need such things. If it's not a symbol what is it in reality? Do you really want to believe your loved one resides in that bleak spot? If you honestly believe the spirit lives on, why the heck would it hang around a graveyard? I know I'd be out of there before the mourners left the carpark. A kid's spirit, if there really was such a thing, would surely be far more likely to hang around the Mum or Dad.


    Its not a symbol its place. I'm not religious I'm an atheist I dont believe in god or heaven or hell or anything else and yet i visit my son's grave all the time. its a place to go to remember him and to think of him. obviously i could and do do that anywhere but i often go to the graveyard, it is his final resting place.
    graveyards aren't for everyone and i know lots of people who remember their dead without ever going near one and thats fine too, but dont claim to know what it means for others.
    anyway you might change your mind yet, before i suffered such a terrible loss i never went near one, had no interest in them.
    nowadays i can hardly pass one with out stopping even if i know nobody there. for a lover of history they are amazing places the stories you can get from reading gravestones is incredible, the connections the inscriptions, they are beautiful places.


  • #80
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    ive seen this with a childs grave in our local graveyard. little teddy trampled into the ground. other little objects scattered around.
    last time we were there, my daughter picked up the things and we returned them to the grave.

    couldnt figure out how anyone would move or take things grom anyone least of all a grave.

    op, sorry this is happening and so sorry for the loss of your little girl.


  • #81
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is a symbol. The same way as a church or a cross is a symbol for people who need such things. If it's not a symbol what is it in reality? Do you really want to believe your loved one resides in that bleak spot? If you honestly believe the spirit lives on, why the heck would it hang around a graveyard? I know I'd be out of there before the mourners left the carpark. A kid's spirit, if there really was such a thing, would surely be far more likely to hang around the Mum or Dad.

    I feel as you do, I get no comfort or consolation from visiting graves either.

    I also don't think you were implying you spoke for everyone when you gave your own personal take on it, I think you were trying to offer an alternative, positive view to a grieving parent distraught at their child's grave being vandalised.

    If everyone took your post in the spirit it was intended, its clear no offence was meant.


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  • #82
    farmchoice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭farmchoice


    obliviously this is directed at me, look i dont want to drag this thread off topic but i simply took that post as it was written and i certainly never implied i thought the poster was taking for anyone but her/him self.
    some people dont like graveyards, good for them, each to their own. however, sometimes some people seem to a have a problem with those who do go or some issue with why they go. it has come up on boards before, they love telling those who visit graveyards that there is no point, there is nothing there, do something else instead, it would be more in their line to mind their own business and keep such ''insightful'' advise to themselves.


  • #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    farmchoice wrote: »
    obliviously this is directed at me, look i dont want to drag this thread off topic but i simply took that post as it was written.
    some people dont like grave yards, good for them, each to their own. however, sometimes some people seem to a have a problem with those who do go or some issue with why they go. it has come up on boards before, they love telling those who visit graveyards that there is no point, there is nothing their, do something else instead, it would more in there line to mind their own business and keep such ''insightful advise to themselves.

    I do like graveyards. Very peaceful places. You appear to be projecting some past issues you have with other threads onto my post. Best to just let it be. :)


  • #84
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    farmchoice wrote: »
    obliviously this is directed at me, look i dont want to drag this thread off topic but i simply took that post as it was written.
    some people dont like graveyards, good for them, each to their own. however, sometimes some people seem to a have a problem with those who do go or some issue with why they go. it has come up on boards before, they love telling those who visit graveyards that there is no point, there is nothing there, do something else instead, it would more in there line to mind their own business and keep such ''insightful'' advise to themselves.

    Sorry but I didn't get that impression from PP's post at all. It looked like a genuine offer of consolation and support to me.


  • #85
    farmchoice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭farmchoice


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I do like graveyards. Very peaceful places. You appear to be projecting some past issues you have with other threads onto my post. Best to just let it be. :)
    no it was your post i had the issue with no other one, but ya lets leave it at that.


  • #86
    farmchoice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭farmchoice


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Sorry but I didn't get that impression from PP's post at all. It looked like a genuine offer of consolation and support to me.


    even this line which he directed straight at grieving parents who obviously get some comfort from visiting their child's grave


    ''If you honestly believe the spirit lives on, why the heck would it hang around a graveyard? I know I'd be out of there before the mourners left the carpark''.


    in the context of this thread i found that very distastefull.


  • #87
    wiggle16
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭wiggle16


    cullieh wrote: »
    We have got her replacements, and we will see how that goes, To be honest I don’t think the Garda will do much but again it all depends on which Garda you get. Thanks for that

    I'm very sorry to hear this is happening OP. It's despicable behaviour if it's an adult doing it. It could well be a small child, but I'd say that's unlikely to happen more than once. It probably is just some full grown scummy little rat.

    Did you report it to the caretakers/custodians of the graveyard? There's probably not a lot they can do, but they might be able to help?

    In the meantime, would it be an idea to make a couple of toys a fixture at the gravesite? By that I mean putting them into a clear container that you can attach or fix to the plot in some way, you could pose them even. If the toys are left loose at the grave they can be picked up by anyone, putting them into a fixed container makes them that bit harder to take.

    Would that be feasable, do you think?

    Edit: I just saw that Strumms put the same idea forward already, didnt read that post til now!


  • #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    farmchoice wrote: »
    even this line which he directed straight at grieving parents who obviously get some comfort from visiting their child's grave


    ''If you honestly believe the spirit lives on, why the heck would it hang around a graveyard? I know I'd be out of there before the mourners left the carpark''.


    in the context of this thread i found that very distastefull.

    It's a very emotive issue and you are clearly and understandably upset.
    If the spirit exists at all I find comfort in believing it is in a better place. I don't think the spirit just sits in the grave for all eternity. I don't think that is a distasteful thing to say.


  • #89
    farmchoice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭farmchoice


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's a very emotive issue and you are clearly and understandably upset.
    If the spirit exists at all I find comfort in believing it is in a better place. I don't think the spirit just sits in the grave for all eternity. I don't think that is a distasteful thing to say.
    Firstly i'm not upset, clearly, understandably or any other way, i said i found parts of your post distastefull.

    Secondly, well, absolutely nobody said or implied anywhere that they thought anyone's spirit lived in a grave, so why you felt the need to point out that you felt it didn't is strange, unless of course you were implying that people did believe such a thing...which of course is exactly what you were doing.. obviously.


  • #90
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    farmchoice wrote: »
    Firstly i'm not upset,

    Ah, you are a bit now. Lets agree to disagree and leave it there. This thread isn't about you or me.


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  • #91
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    Jeez, death and loss and grief are dealt with in different ways by each individual. It's an extremely personal process/situation. TimeLadsPlease only spoke about their own personal take - why take that as an order for everyone else to feel the same way? Why take offence at something they apply only to their own situation and nobody else's? Of course people will have different views and interpretations based on their own unique heart and mind and belief system and feelings.

    And I don't know that it was aimed at anyone but if it was, it was more likely graces7 because she may not have intended to but it seemed like she was doing exactly that - telling TimeLadsPlease that their perspective/interpretation is wrong. But it's neither right nor wrong. Every view here as to where their beloved is, is beautiful and heartfelt, and I hope it brings them peace.


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